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#2354575 - 11/25/14 11:21 AM KAWAI CS10 ISSUES
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7


I have seen other posts on forums about the Kawai sound. I have been similarly unimpressed with the quality of some of the piano sounds. I know what people mean when they refer to the buzzing sound. It is a kind of metallic jarring that seems to underscore a lot of the piano sounds.

I was in a music store the other day and even one of the piano sales people agreed that there is an unpleasant jarring element to the sound.

However, some I have spoken to think it is fantastic so I guess it is personal taste.

A more serious problem I have experienced is that it is very difficult to play very softly - a problem I think others have eluded to on forums. Also, my CS10 has inconsistent balance between certain notes. For example, the F sharp and G above middle C on all the voices under the piano 1 bank are noticeably more jarring in tone than the keys around them - even when played softly there is a very harsh tone that comes across as dominant and loud because of the tonal characteristic. Same problem with b flat below middle C on voices in the piano 2 bank. I know that the virtual technician allows you to change the volume of individual notes, but that is not the solution because it is the disproportionate out of balance harshness of these individual notes that set them apart. Lowering their volume in relation to the keys around them does not change the character of the tone produced.

I've had this looked at and an engineer couldn't understand the dirty condition of the contacts on a brand new piano. When they were cleaned it seemed to alleviate the problem, but it is now back. Speaking to Kawai again today to get them back, but I am not hopeful because they failed to resolve this first time round - the engineer I refer to above was an independent one who came in after the one provided by Kawai failed to identify the problem. He wouldn't even acknowledge there was anything wrong. Fobbed me off by saying it was the string resonance function that was causing the harsh sounds - rubbish of course because it is still the same with the function switched off. Very unimpressive performance.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has had similar problems, and if and how it was resolved.

The feel of the piano keyboard is great and if I can resolve these problems and get a good even tone across the entire keyboard I will be happy even though I have to agree that the Kawai sound is a little harsh for my liking. But if I cannot get this resolved I will be going back to Yamaha because my CS10 cannot be played properly without becoming frustrated with these problems- it takes all the enjoyment away.

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#2354657 - 11/25/14 02:23 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
AndyJoe

An easy way to determine if a specific Key's Electronics are at fault is to Shift the Notes up or down from the one in question. That way, the original note can be played on another Key and, the Note that replaced it, will be affected.

Key Transpose is the feature. Page 61 (in the CA95 manual)

The F# and G above Middle C are a known issue. In fact, I am working with Kawai as we speak of this very thing.

No one has mentioned to me it may be a dirty contact. I will move the Note and see what happens and let you know.

Here are some Threads you may find useful.

1983577
2050818
2317083
2285889
2008068

The CS10, CA95, CA65 and MP11 share the same Sound Samples and Keyboard. The Sound Engine is the same for the CS10 CA95 CA65. It may be the same as well for the MP11. The CS10 and CA95 share the same Amps and Speaker setup.

If this starts to irritate you, do not waste time. Let your Dealer know to call Kawai and start a Repair Ticket.

Hope this is helpful.
.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2354716 - 11/25/14 04:58 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7
Hi Jon,

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Glad to know I'm not the only one with this problem. I was beginning to get very downhearted, especially when I hear Kawai being spoken of so highly by both dealers and customers. You start to think it's you that's in the wrong.

I've tried transposing and the faulty F sharp and G move up and down the keyboard as you do so which means it's obviously something wrong with the sample rather than the keys. I think the dirty contacts I had exacerbated the problem and the cleaning resulted in an improvement. However, the underlying problem is still present.

Funnily enough the problem I have with the dodgy b flat in the piano 2 voices doesn't seem to transpose so I guess there is a problem with the contact and it's just not as obvious with the other voices. It's like the key is too sensitive when compared to its neighbours.

I've spoken to Kawai this afternoon and after meeting a little resistance (they tried to fob me off to the dealer)they have agrede to send an engineer.

I'm really glad I put this post up and got a response from someone with the same problem because it backs me up. You start to doubt yourself when you aren't getting anywhere - I've even visited a few stores and tried out the CA95 and another CS10 and found they were fine. I would gladly swap mine for any of the Kawai models I've tried in store. It's obviously a sporadic problem affecting a limited number of pianos I presume.

Please let me know if you get any answers from Kawai and I will do likewise. I have noticed that the Kawai Europe website has a download for the CS10 which has appeared since the last time I looked but the list of faults it purports to cure doesn't include this problem. I'm going to try the download in any case just in case it reboots the system and somehow cures it. I doubt it but it's worth a try I suppose.

I'll have a look at the other threads you've referred to also.

Regards,

Andy.

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#2354764 - 11/25/14 07:37 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Good morning Andy,

First, I am sorry to hear that you are experiencing some difficulties with your CS10.

You have obviously done the right thing in reporting these issues to your local dealer and - assuming you are based in the UK - to Kawai UK. Indeed, as you are already corresponding with my colleagues at Kawai UK, I do not believe it is necessary for me to get involved in this particular matter.

However, I shall offer my opinion regarding the points you raise.

1. Keyboard contacts

I'm afraid I do not know the reason why the CS10's keyboard contacts (actually sealed rubber switches) required cleaning so soon after the piano was purchased. This is a very rare case, and unless the instrument is placed in a very dusty/dirty environment, should not happen.

I even wonder if the independent technician that you hired was simply 'looking' for a job to do, and cleaned the action regardless of the condition it was in? As you note, the cleaning alleviated the issue only temporarily, and transposing the sound up/down also shifts the tonal characteristic you are hearing. Both points suggest to me that the keyboard contacts are not the problem.


2. Metallic sound

As you have found, some individuals love the sound of Kawai pianos, while others do not. I believe this is a personal preference. Kawai samples all 88 keys of the grand piano, which means each note has its own unique characteristics. Sometimes one or two notes sound more prominent than others, however these characteristics can be be adjusted by using the Virtual Technician functions, such as the User Key Volume setting that you refer to.

You mentioned that the first technician provided by Kawai suggested that String Resonance may contribute to the characteristics of the sound you are hearing. I am actually inclined to agree with this point, and would add that Kawai's Damper Resonance modelling can also 'excite' certain characteristics of the sampled sound. I don't believe this technician was purposely trying to fob you off - he was offering an explanation as to why some notes may have more prominent characteristics than others.

In addition, you mention that the CS10 and CA95 instruments you have played at your dealer's store do not exhibit the characteristics of the CS10 at your home. However, these pianos all share the same sound hardware and samples, which suggests to me that the location/placement of the instrument may actually be a factor. May I ask if the characteristics you are hearing are also prominent when listening to the piano with headphones? If not, I wonder if there are any objects/surfaces in the room that are resonating with certain frequencies of the sound? It may even be worth checking that all of the piano's screws are firmly tightened. Years ago, I had a pair of old Wharfedale speakers, one of which would 'buzz' whenever a specific bass note of a particular song would play - it plagued me for months. I eventually isolated the problem to a single screw on the front of the speaker, gave it a 1/2 turn, and never heard the buzz again!

Finally, regarding software updates, I do not believe the characteristic you are hearing will be affected by updating the software, but you're obviously welcome to try downloading the latest version from the Kawai Europe or Kawai Japan website at the URL below:

http://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates.html

I hope this helps.

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2354911 - 11/26/14 04:53 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
mabraman Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Andy, the inconsistent tone and character between adjacent keys is a well known issue in this particular 88 key sampling from Kawai. It affects other models who run PHI sound, so it's probably in the sample, which is supposed to be the same for them all. My ES7 has similar issues.
You could try to record those single notes and import the recording into Audacity, so that you can see the waveforms.That's a good way to prove your ears are not fooling you (they aren't).
The only way to solve it is to adjust the keybed sensitivity to heavy or heavy+, but this will affect the tone of the whole piano and the dynamic range.
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2354985 - 11/26/14 10:30 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Brometeo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 62
Loc: Madrid (Spain)
Originally Posted By: AndyJoe

A more serious problem I have experienced is that it is very difficult to play very softly - a problem I think others have eluded to on forums.


I have played Kawai CA95 for many months now after owning a CA93. When I purchased the new model, felt same as you with soft playing. After trying some acoustics, I saw that was an expected behaviour for a piano.

From then, I have enhanced my playing abilities, and now I am very happy with results. Getting pianissimo is not easy on a good piano, so in CA95. Touch is very good, full of little nuances and detail, but enjoying it is an acquired taste. Now I am able of producing subtle dynamic in my CA95, with very soft passages, and in future I expect better results.

Hope it helps you smile
_________________________
Kawai CA95

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#2355158 - 11/26/14 04:40 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7
I understand what you mean Brometeo. The touch takes some getting used to in order to get the best out of it. Unfortunately I doubt I will become truly familiar with it because the rogue notes put you off playing and the voices that are not affected are the most inferior ones and do nothing to inspire you to sit down and practice.

James' suggestion that the positioning of the piano may be a contributory factor is not the case because the problem exists when using headphones. Also, the various resonance settings make no difference whatsoever to this problem. Believe me when I say I have done a considerable amount of tinkering with all the settings in an attempt to eradicate this. To no avail.

I've sampled another CA95 and CS10 today. Probably because I was bracing myself to hear the tonal imbalance and am hyper sensitive to it, I did pick up on it slightly, but I feel mine is worse. I don't think I would have picked up on this in the first place if the difference on mine was as subtle as the others I have sampled.

If this cannot be resolved, in which case Kawai will be saying there is nothing wrong with the piano, I think I will have no option but to trade it in and go back to Yamaha.

I'll be disappointed to lose as much as I am expecting to lose on a trade in, but it will be needs must I'm afraid. How I wish I had my old Yamaha back.

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#2355200 - 11/26/14 06:45 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 535
Loc: UK
It is weird because try as I might, I cannot hear anything wrong with those notes on my CA95. It's not like I can hear it but don't find it objectionable; I can't hear anything different tonally in those notes compared to the surrounding ones that could be found objectionable by anyone else. You're not imagining it, so maybe there's some fault with the electronics on certain units? Could you record the notes to WAV with reverb off and upload them to Soundcloud or elsewhere so that I can listen and compare to my unit?

Quote:
Same problem with b flat below middle C on voices in the piano 2 bank.

This is more surprising, because for Concert Grand 2 (I assume that's what you're referring to), I can clearly hear the stretch groups: if you start at Middle C and descend chromatically, you should hear that each group of 4 notes has the same tone, i.e. the same sample is used for C, B, Bb and A. So there shouldn't be any tonal difference between those notes. I wonder what's going on?

Quote:
I've had this looked at and an engineer couldn't understand the dirty condition of the contacts on a brand new piano. When they were cleaned it seemed to alleviate the problem, but it is now back.

Which contacts did he mean? Usually "contacts" refers to the ones in the sensors. Did he really take the sensors apart? Why would that have anything to do with tone? They just sense when the key has been pressed a certain distance, and the timing difference is used to calculate velocity. Dirty sensors could account for a note not sounding, but that wasn't your problem.

Maybe he meant the contact between the key and the hammer. If grease from the hammer pivot gets on that contact (a piece of PTFE stuck to the end of the key, which pushes the steel capstan on the hammer), that can make notes heavier and the return slower. Maybe you have some variation there.

You can check the evenness by getting a weight of 2-3oz / 50-75g, or a stack of coins stuck together with blu-tack, narrower than a key width, and observing the velocity triggered when the weight is placed on the ends of the keys, using software such as Pianoteq (free trial should work). The precise weights / velocities triggered don't matter, but it should be even across the keyboard. The black keys will be slightly heavier, and the lower keys also, due to the graded hammers (there are 4 zones), but it should not vary wildly from note to note. I suggest you test this and post results, because if some notes are triggering higher or lower velocities, that could lead to tonal variation (and may be possible to fix, with proper cleaning and lubrication).

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
You mentioned that the first technician provided by Kawai suggested that String Resonance may contribute to the characteristics of the sound you are hearing. I am actually inclined to agree with this point, and would add that Kawai's Damper Resonance modelling can also 'excite' certain characteristics of the sampled sound. I don't believe this technician was purposely trying to fob you off - he was offering an explanation as to why some notes may have more prominent characteristics than others.

That's not how String Resonance works though. That effect only comes into play when you play a note with another already held down (and only on a small number of "related" notes). Damper Resonance only comes into play when the damper pedal is down. If we are talking about notes playing individually, neither is triggered. The technician should have known this. Also it's very easy to eliminate by turning it off in the Virtual Technician, which OP already said he did. A complete red herring!

Quote:
It may even be worth checking that all of the piano's screws are firmly tightened.

Good advice if the problem is only heard over speakers and not over headphones. Also worth trying several different types of headphones, since they can introduce their own variations into the sound.

Finally, I'd advise OP to switch Touch Response to Heavy. This makes the tone not so overly bright and makes it easier to play softly. I hope you manage to get your problems sorted out!
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2355211 - 11/26/14 07:01 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Could you record the notes to WAV with reverb off and upload them to Soundcloud or elsewhere so that I can listen and compare to my unit?


That's a good suggestion.

If possible, recording the same notes of the fine less problematic CA95/CS10 using the internal USB recorder would also allow objective comparison.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2355261 - 11/26/14 10:03 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7
Hi all,

Unfortunately changing the touch to heavy just dampens the sound for me - and doesn't get rid of this problem. Playing with the dynamic voicing setting is probably the best improvement in terms of touch, but the dodgy note problem is still there.

It's interesting that lolatu's unit doesn't have this problem and I can assure you all it would be obvious if it did.

Record the notes to WAV and upload them to Soundcloud? Wow!! That's way beyond my pay grade - I wouldn't even know where to start. All I know is I've got a perfectly good set of ears and in common with others they are telling me this is badly wrong.

James,

Kawai should be identifying the cause and sorting this out. What are they doing about this because they surely must be aware of the problem? I'm sure any reasonable person would accept it is incumbent on them to provide a fix.

Regards,

Andy.

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#2355275 - 11/26/14 11:09 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Andy,

Originally Posted By: AndyJoe
What are they doing about this because they surely must be aware of the problem? I'm sure any reasonable person would accept it is incumbent on them to provide a fix.


We are aware that a handful of customers report certain characteristics in some notes. This is arguably a component of 88-key sampling, whereby individual keys have their own unique sound, like an acoustic piano. Years ago digital pianos would stretch the same 'perfect' note over an entire octave, resulting in a very sterile, unrealistic sound - I'm rather glad that that these days are behind us, and each note can sound a little different.

As we've seen in this thread, some individuals are more sensitive to these characteristics than others. As it happens, I played another manufacturer's instruments at a large musical instrument exhibition at the weekend, and heard a number of notes that appeared to sing-out more prominently than others. I accepted it as part of the instrument's 'character' and just continued to play.

Originally Posted By: AndyJoe
Record the notes to WAV and upload them to Soundcloud? Wow!! That's way beyond my pay grade - I wouldn't even know where to start.


The process is rather less complicated than it sounds, and following the explanation in the instrument's owner's manual should get you half of the way there.

In summary: take a USB stick, use the instrument's built-in audio recorder, then upload the resulting file to some temporary storage online.

This is arguably the only way to check if there is truly a defect with your CS10, while also recording the instruments at your dealer's shop will allow us to make an objective comparison with your own instrument.

I hope this helps - best of luck.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2355291 - Yesterday at 12:09 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Those in this thread that are very pleased with these notes,

Is your piano up against a wall with 2-3-4" separation?

If so, is the wall Equalizer On or Off?
.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2355316 - Yesterday at 01:36 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: lolatu]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3667
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: lolatu

This is more surprising, because for Concert Grand 2 (I assume that's what you're referring to), I can clearly hear the stretch groups: if you start at Middle C and descend chromatically, you should hear that each group of 4 notes has the same tone, i.e. the same sample is used for C, B, Bb and A. So there shouldn't be any tonal difference between those notes. I wonder what's going on?


Kawai uses 88 key sampling these days, so what you can "clearly hear" is not actually happening! They might be tonally similar, but not because they are all made from the same sample.

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#2355324 - Yesterday at 03:04 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: ando]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 535
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: lolatu

This is more surprising, because for Concert Grand 2 (I assume that's what you're referring to), I can clearly hear the stretch groups: if you start at Middle C and descend chromatically, you should hear that each group of 4 notes has the same tone, i.e. the same sample is used for C, B, Bb and A. So there shouldn't be any tonal difference between those notes. I wonder what's going on?


Kawai uses 88 key sampling these days, so what you can "clearly hear" is not actually happening! They might be tonally similar, but not because they are all made from the same sample.

Concert Grand, Studio Grand etc use the 88 key sample. Concert Grand 2, Studio Grand 2 etc, and most of the others are stretched.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2355325 - Yesterday at 03:07 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: McBuster]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 535
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: McBuster
Those in this thread that are very pleased with these notes,

Is your piano up against a wall with 2-3-4" separation?

If so, is the wall Equalizer On or Off?
.

Yes.

Wall EQ off. Tried it but didn't like it.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2355327 - Yesterday at 03:17 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 535
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: AndyJoe


Record the notes to WAV and upload them to Soundcloud? Wow!! That's way beyond my pay grade - I wouldn't even know where to start. All I know is I've got a perfectly good set of ears and in common with others they are telling me this is badly wrong.

If you managed to sign up to this forum then I don't see why it would be so hard to sign up to Soundcloud. You will need to be a bit proactive and try it if you want help.

Quote:

Kawai should be identifying the cause and sorting this out. What are they doing about this because they surely must be aware of the problem? I'm sure any reasonable person would accept it is incumbent on them to provide a fix.

You need to demonstrate your problem with a recording or you'll just get told it's a feature of 88 key sampling...
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2355333 - Yesterday at 03:39 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
mabraman Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 331
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Those notes sound weird via headphones, so it's not a matter of positioning the piano too close to a wall.
It's either in the sample or it's some hardware/software issue which affects various models. I agree that a true, lively sound is more pleasant than a stretched one. This is the reason why we choosed Kawai despite it's...improvable sound.
This said, it's obvious that the tone of a note can be improved with proper voicing. Had the Kawai Grand been mine, those notes won't sound like this.
Because they are not "characteristical" of the instrument, but are betraying it's character, instead. This is the point in my opinion and what results annoying.
Kawai made some software update with regard to this tonal inconsistence but, honestly, it's still there.
If a note can't be peacefully played mf on purpose...if it sings like a ff...something goes wrong with it and has to be fixed.


Edited by mabraman (Yesterday at 03:41 AM)
Edit Reason: faults
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2355357 - Yesterday at 05:21 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 123
Loc: Austria, EU
Very well said mabraman.

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#2355379 - Yesterday at 07:56 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: mabraman]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 535
Loc: UK
The quality of the samples is something we can debate, but I don't think that's the issue here, because OP said:

Quote:
You start to doubt yourself when you aren't getting anywhere - I've even visited a few stores and tried out the CA95 and another CS10 and found they were fine. I would gladly swap mine for any of the Kawai models I've tried in store.

and
Quote:
I've sampled another CA95 and CS10 today. Probably because I was bracing myself to hear the tonal imbalance and am hyper sensitive to it, I did pick up on it slightly, but I feel mine is worse. I don't think I would have picked up on this in the first place if the difference on mine was as subtle as the others I have sampled.

It appears to be a problem with his specific unit (not to say there aren't any others with this problem), which is why he needs to post samples to compare. I am fairly sure the WAV output will be exactly the same as everyone else's, but it will be a starting point for pinpointing what the problem is.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2355382 - Yesterday at 08:06 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7
I agree with Mabraman. We are not talking about some little idiosyncrasy here that could be viewed as giving the instrument some character as you may expect with an acoustic - this is a harsh sound that is jarring and therefore very unmusical.

In relation to the above comment by lolatu about me being a bit proactive and demonstrating my problem, I have had a Kawai rep in my home and he could hear what I can hear so I don't think it's necessary for me to go uploading recordings that may or may not demonstrate the problem adequately. Don't forget I also had a technician hear this and when he cleaned my contacts it seemed to temporarily alleviate the problem. I'm starting the whole thing rolling again because the problem persists and I am awaiting further contact from Kawai. To me, this is a no brainer - it must be a fault of some description that only affects certain units. Otherwise this problem would be universal. We certainly wouldn't have anyone saying that they cannot hear the problem, even though they have deliberately gone seeking it out such as Lolatu has.

The reason I started this post was to just see if anyone else was out there who had a similar problem and whether a solution can be found or already exists. I wasn't expecting a response, but the responses received indicate that this obviously is a problem that is not confined to my unit. I live in hope that this issue can be resolved, but it's looking like my optimism may be misplaced.

Perhaps another question for James. We have a number of different piano voices and I am wondering whether they have been sampled separately from different types of piano or is it just one sample from the concert grand that is then manipulated to produce the other variations. If the samples are taken from a number of different pianos it is stretching the imagination a little too far to accept that some of the other pianos sampled had exactly the same dodgy notes. And if all the voices originate from the sampling of one piano, why then is this problem not detectable in voices such as pop piano? Whichever is correct seems to throw up an argument that this is actually nothing to do with the sampling of the original instrument.

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#2355393 - Yesterday at 08:49 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Andy,

The piano samples used by the CS10 and other Kawai DPs are derived from various grand pianos. Some sounds feature the same grand piano, but are recorded with different mics and pre-amps, or with different voicing characteristics in order to achieve a variety of tones.

As I suggested in my previous post, if you're hearing a characteristic on one particular note at a certain volume, it's likely that the 'source' grand piano had the same characteristic when recorded.

I personally do not believe your theory that the characteristic you are hearing is due a to fault that only affects some instruments. However, if you do not find any issue with the CA95/CS10 models at your local dealer's store, perhaps you can enquire if it will be possible to exchange your piano with the floor model?

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2355398 - Yesterday at 08:53 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Here is the WaveForm my CA95 generates for (F-A above Middle C).
.

.

I am certain this could be done better with some real fancy equipment and knowledge. But I believe the basics are there.

I have a couple other ideas why this is a problem and why yesterday, I played a CA95 at a Dealer that sounded absolutely beautiful. Like I used to hear. That will be offered at some future date.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2355500 - Yesterday at 01:17 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
AndyJoe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/24/14
Posts: 7
Hopefully I'll be having a good pianist who is also a musical instrument dealer coming round next week to have a play on my CS10. He has considerably more experience than me and is also independent from both Kawai and the dealer I purchased the CS10 from. He has experience of playing a good many digital pianos of different makes so it will be very interesting to see what he thinks of it, particularly as he is not biased one way or the other.

I'll keep you posted.

It's interesting that McBuster has played on a CA95 that he describes as absolutely beautiful. Ask yourself why he was happy with this CA95 but is disappointed with his own.

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#2355624 - Yesterday at 08:24 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
AndyJoe, it will be interesting to see if your pianist friend is able to identify the note that you believe to be problematic. I suspect he may hear that is has a slightly different character, accept this as an attributes of 88-key sampling, then continue to play without concern.

Originally Posted By: AndyJoe
It's interesting that McBuster has played on a CA95 that he describes as absolutely beautiful. Ask yourself why he was happy with this CA95 but is disappointed with his own.


Probably because McBuster's CA95 is in a different room to that of the other instrument he played (presumably in a dealer's store, as in your case). The location of the piano can have a big impact on its tonal quality.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2355627 - Yesterday at 08:32 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
As part of the ongoing process of elimination, yes, the Dealer's piano was against the wall and I moved mine to be the same. Same settings. Still a problem at home.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2355629 - Yesterday at 08:38 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: McBuster]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: McBuster
As part of the ongoing process of elimination, yes, the Dealer's piano was against the wall and I moved mine to be the same. Same settings. Still a problem at home.


With the greatest respect McBuster, a room consists of more than a single wall...
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2355636 - Yesterday at 09:50 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
James

:-)

I really love my Kawais. A 63 93 and now my 95. You folks are on the right track. And I like taking lessons on it and playing it. But That Note, has got to go.

:-)

Why is it then, wherever I put it, in the middle of the small room it is in, in the middle of my living room, against a wall in either, it always sounds the same? No matter the settings.

Why can I call people on the phone and they hear that note clear as day? And Alan and Juan have agreed they heard it being different too. And so have others on this forum come across this very problem.

I have tried everything Alan and others have suggested. And I have offered many solutions on my own. Even spending four hours going to two Dealers yesterday in traffic in a Minnesota snowfall to play a CA95, CA65, CS7 and a CS4. An MP11 was not available to me.

And, why, the first time I submitted this problem two years ago, it took from Jan 7th til March 9th for a Tech to show up the first time without any results after repeated promises to me and the Dealer? And Kawai on its own did not pursue it further after his findings then to resolve a known issue with a repeat customer?

And now, I called Juan on June 10th and after repeated broken promises to me starting that day and several to the Dealer to send a Tech out here to figure things out and yet, to this day no Tech? Almost six months later? I had to write the Branch Manager in Calif to have Juan hook me up with Alan about two weeks ago.

Still under Warranty. I have done everything Kawai has asked. Politely, patiently. :-) I even tried laying toilet paper on top of the midrange speakers as suggested. Imagine that as a solution.

Is this the Customer Service and Repair one should expect from Kawai? Waiting months both times? Is it?

And, is the unit so delicate and fussy I must plop it in the right spot in the right room to make a pleasant sound out of a problematic note? That's ridiculous.

I am a fun guy and easy to work with, but my patience with Kawai Repair is about shot. I do not want a Yamaha or a Roland or X Y Z. I want my unit to work as advertised. As did the 63 and the 93 in the same spot!!!

All I asked was for was someone to fix my problem under the Warranty provided. A problem I am led to believe, is inherent in the Sound Sampling. Whether the WaveForm from a USB WAV File, Headphones Out, Line Out, or the microphone in my iPhone. The same pattern emerges. As does the same sound. To me. To others.

:-)

I really appreciate your input on the Forum. It has been far better for all because of your thoughtful and patient answers. You have been generous and kind.

But, this note is not that sour simply because of room placement.

Time for a three finger bourbon. Put cotton in my ears and play my Kawai piano.

Again, with the greatest respect ... :-)
.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2355657 - Yesterday at 11:02 PM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Jon, thank you for your post.

I do not doubt that the sound you are hearing exists - it's a characteristic of the sample for that note. The same characteristic will therefore also be present in a number of other Kawai DPs, including the instruments that you have played at dealers' stores.

I believe the location the instrument is placed in can influence the tonal quality of its sound. In the dealer's store, the characteristic of the note you are concerned with may be less prominent than in your home, but I'm almost certain that it's still there.

Again, I'm not suggesting that the characteristics you are hearing on one note of your CA95 do not exist, nor do I believe that Andy is imagining similar characteristics on one note of his CS10. The point I wish to make is that this is part of the natural, organic sound of the instrument.

Kawai produces thousands of digital pianos each year, and I'm confident that the vast majority of our customers are very happy with their their chosen instrument, and receive musical enjoyment from playing or listening to the piano each day. A small number of owners may hear unique characteristics in one note, while other players may hear different characteristics in another. Of those individuals, most will accept these characteristics and just continue to play, while a handful will find the sound objectionable and voice their concerns on a forum such as Pianoworld.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2355671 - Today at 01:04 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 249
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
James

Thanks for kind remarks.

I am not naive to the room and surroundings affecting any sounds from a stereo, an acoustic piano nor mine.

I too was happy with the 63 and 93. Same spot. Same room. But wanted the features of the 95.

All this could have been resolved long ago had Kawai as a company, got a Tech out here. Promptly. No one likes to be ignored. No one likes to have promises made, then nothing. No phone calls. No eMails. Nothing. Just silence and nothing.

Had I not pursued this on my own as I have, both times, --nothing-- would have been done.

Think about that ...

No doubt Kawai sells alot of product. Most are delighted. Others have accepted a nuance some do not like.

The note I and others hear is real. I just wished someone in Kawai could step up to the plate and accept that. Then, take responsibility for their products, hunker down and fix it.

Instead of frustrating a customer as no one else ever has.

+++

And, thank goodness for a Forum like this. It is the only vehicle we as consumers have to learn of any success, or failure, we may experience.
.




_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

Top
#2355674 - Today at 01:22 AM Re: KAWAI CS10 ISSUES [Re: AndyJoe]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9572
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Jon,

This matter is really between yourself and Kawai America, therefore - as an employee of Kawai Japan - I am reluctant to comment further.

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with the customer support afforded to you, however I'm confident that the staff at Kawai America have done their utmost to help as much as possible.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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