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Andy,

The piano samples used by the CS10 and other Kawai DPs are derived from various grand pianos. Some sounds feature the same grand piano, but are recorded with different mics and pre-amps, or with different voicing characteristics in order to achieve a variety of tones.

As I suggested in my previous post, if you're hearing a characteristic on one particular note at a certain volume, it's likely that the 'source' grand piano had the same characteristic when recorded.

I personally do not believe your theory that the characteristic you are hearing is due a to fault that only affects some instruments. However, if you do not find any issue with the CA95/CS10 models at your local dealer's store, perhaps you can enquire if it will be possible to exchange your piano with the floor model?

Kind regards,
James
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Here is the WaveForm my CA95 generates for (F-A above Middle C).
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I am certain this could be done better with some real fancy equipment and knowledge. But I believe the basics are there.

I have a couple other ideas why this is a problem and why yesterday, I played a CA95 at a Dealer that sounded absolutely beautiful. Like I used to hear. That will be offered at some future date.

Hopefully I'll be having a good pianist who is also a musical instrument dealer coming round next week to have a play on my CS10. He has considerably more experience than me and is also independent from both Kawai and the dealer I purchased the CS10 from. He has experience of playing a good many digital pianos of different makes so it will be very interesting to see what he thinks of it, particularly as he is not biased one way or the other.

I'll keep you posted.

It's interesting that McBuster has played on a CA95 that he describes as absolutely beautiful. Ask yourself why he was happy with this CA95 but is disappointed with his own.

AndyJoe, it will be interesting to see if your pianist friend is able to identify the note that you believe to be problematic. I suspect he may hear that is has a slightly different character, accept this as an attributes of 88-key sampling, then continue to play without concern.



Probably because McBuster's CA95 is in a different room to that of the other instrument he played (presumably in a dealer's store, as in your case). The location of the piano can have a big impact on its tonal quality.

Kind regards,
James
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As part of the ongoing process of elimination, yes, the Dealer's piano was against the wall and I moved mine to be the same. Same settings. Still a problem at home.

With the greatest respect McBuster, a room consists of more than a single wall...

James

:-)

I really love my Kawais. A 63 93 and now my 95. You folks are on the right track. And I like taking lessons on it and playing it. But That Note, has got to go.

:-)

Why is it then, wherever I put it, in the middle of the small room it is in, in the middle of my living room, against a wall in either, it always sounds the same? No matter the settings.

Why can I call people on the phone and they hear that note clear as day? And Alan and Juan have agreed they heard it being different too. And so have others on this forum come across this very problem.

I have tried everything Alan and others have suggested. And I have offered many solutions on my own. Even spending four hours going to two Dealers yesterday in traffic in a Minnesota snowfall to play a CA95, CA65, CS7 and a CS4. An MP11 was not available to me.

And, why, the first time I submitted this problem two years ago, it took from Jan 7th til March 9th for a Tech to show up the first time without any results after repeated promises to me and the Dealer? And Kawai on its own did not pursue it further after his findings then to resolve a known issue with a repeat customer?

And now, I called Juan on June 10th and after repeated broken promises to me starting that day and several to the Dealer to send a Tech out here to figure things out and yet, to this day no Tech? Almost six months later? I had to write the Branch Manager in Calif to have Juan hook me up with Alan about two weeks ago.

Still under Warranty. I have done everything Kawai has asked. Politely, patiently. :-) I even tried laying toilet paper on top of the midrange speakers as suggested. Imagine that as a solution.

Is this the Customer Service and Repair one should expect from Kawai? Waiting months both times? Is it?

And, is the unit so delicate and fussy I must plop it in the right spot in the right room to make a pleasant sound out of a problematic note? That's ridiculous.

I am a fun guy and easy to work with, but my patience with Kawai Repair is about shot. I do not want a Yamaha or a Roland or X Y Z. I want my unit to work as advertised. As did the 63 and the 93 in the same spot!!!

All I asked was for was someone to fix my problem under the Warranty provided. A problem I am led to believe, is inherent in the Sound Sampling. Whether the WaveForm from a USB WAV File, Headphones Out, Line Out, or the microphone in my iPhone. The same pattern emerges. As does the same sound. To me. To others.

:-)

I really appreciate your input on the Forum. It has been far better for all because of your thoughtful and patient answers. You have been generous and kind.

But, this note is not that sour simply because of room placement.

Time for a three finger bourbon. Put cotton in my ears and play my Kawai piano.

Again, with the greatest respect ... :-)
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Jon, thank you for your post.

I do not doubt that the sound you are hearing exists - it's a characteristic of the sample for that note. The same characteristic will therefore also be present in a number of other Kawai DPs, including the instruments that you have played at dealers' stores.

I believe the location the instrument is placed in can influence the tonal quality of its sound. In the dealer's store, the characteristic of the note you are concerned with may be less prominent than in your home, but I'm almost certain that it's still there.

Again, I'm not suggesting that the characteristics you are hearing on one note of your CA95 do not exist, nor do I believe that Andy is imagining similar characteristics on one note of his CS10. The point I wish to make is that this is part of the natural, organic sound of the instrument.

Kawai produces thousands of digital pianos each year, and I'm confident that the vast majority of our customers are very happy with their their chosen instrument, and receive musical enjoyment from playing or listening to the piano each day. A small number of owners may hear unique characteristics in one note, while other players may hear different characteristics in another. Of those individuals, most will accept these characteristics and just continue to play, while a handful will find the sound objectionable and voice their concerns on a forum such as Pianoworld.

Kind regards,
James
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James

Thanks for kind remarks.

I am not naive to the room and surroundings affecting any sounds from a stereo, an acoustic piano nor mine.

I too was happy with the 63 and 93. Same spot. Same room. But wanted the features of the 95.

All this could have been resolved long ago had Kawai as a company, got a Tech out here. Promptly. No one likes to be ignored. No one likes to have promises made, then nothing. No phone calls. No eMails. Nothing. Just silence and nothing.

Had I not pursued this on my own as I have, both times, --nothing-- would have been done.

Think about that ...

No doubt Kawai sells alot of product. Most are delighted. Others have accepted a nuance some do not like.

The note I and others hear is real. I just wished someone in Kawai could step up to the plate and accept that. Then, take responsibility for their products, hunker down and fix it.

Instead of frustrating a customer as no one else ever has.

+++

And, thank goodness for a Forum like this. It is the only vehicle we as consumers have to learn of any success, or failure, we may experience.
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Jon,

This matter is really between yourself and Kawai America, therefore - as an employee of Kawai Japan - I am reluctant to comment further.

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with the customer support afforded to you, however I'm confident that the staff at Kawai America have done their utmost to help as much as possible.

Kind regards,
James
x

This is a dire experience McBuster had to make here, not so much different to mine with the MP7 in Europe, concerning the (non-)response by Kawai support.

A way forward for Kawai (US) could be, to send to the disappointed customer a second, double-checked CS10 with a technician, right away. Then you could find out, if there actually is some defect or not, and at least document and clarify it for other customers.
- - -

My hypothesis on these stories is, that there might be some more cheapo components with a high variation in quality built into to device, than just a cheap transformer like with the MP7/ MP11. And these could cause hard to nail down, irregularly recurring oddities. E.g. an electronic component with 1% (e.g. a HiFi-grade capacitor or metal film resistor) will cost 10x more than a simple component with only 10% accuracy. Combined with poor assembly in the factory (not only forum member Rolf Benz reported on his MP11) this gives a hard to control mixture.

IMHO this is the consequence of cutting production costs just a little bit too much.
- - -

lophiomys, I know for a fact that Kawai America have been corresponding regularly with McBuster. However there eventually comes a point when all technical support avenues have been exhausted, and nothing more can be done to assist the customer, and I believe this to be the case here.

If Kawai America have concluded that the sound of this note is a characteristic of the instrument and not a defect, I do not believe any further action is necessary.

Kind regards,
James
x

I won't be either so confident or so sure about anything if I were James (sorry for mentioning you), but everyone has the right to use logic in it's own profit.
There's something happening with Kawai's 88 key sampling, it shows here and there in the forums. To me , is a mistery why a bunch of delighted users exemplify the vast majority of customers, and a bunch of critics are sistematically underrated.
Silent doesn't mean happy, and critical doesn't mean biased.

Again, what some call a "characteristic" of the sampling is a clear mistake, an unevenness that should have been voiced before recording those samples. It simply makes some sounds unplayable. They took the decission to assemble a sound trying to make it "organic" and, in a 98% they did it (I'm using the best entry of organic,here).
Sadly, in music a small 2% is the difference between pleasure and annoyance. Music is an art where details mean everything. If you pay a good money for a high class instrument those details hurt even more.

So, please, do make the most of every opinion and fix what is wrong in your production lines. Harshness, timbral and tone unevenness, bad cushioning...Or you may as well keep on telling that s...t happens.

mabraman, thank you for your post.

I agree with a lot of what you write, however I'm afraid I do not accept that there is a 'mistake' in these samples - they simply exhibit characteristics present within the original piano.

Without wishing to sound overly philosophical, life is not perfect, and nor are pianos. We just have to accept things for what they are and move on.

Now, if you'll excuse me, it's been a long day, so I'm going to prepare some soup for dinner. I doubt everything about the meal will be perfect (perhaps the potatoes will be a little too soft...), but I'm confident the majority of it will be tasty, and I'll enjoy eating it.

Have a lovely weekend.

Kind regards,
James
x

Of course every sound of every manufacturer can be scrutinized and criticized. Some criticisms (bad looping, layering or stretching of samples, unnaturally short sustain, etc., - the kind dewster's thread focuses on) are quite valid.

However I'd particularly like to invite everyone to:

1. Scrutinize any odd real acoustic piano, especially one not prepared for a concert the same night by a very skilled technician.

2. OK, in the digital world: Play a bit around with any of the samples of the Nord Piano Library.

You'll be surprised. Cheers everyone!

PS, as an aside: Whenever I played around with one of the recent upper level Kawai DP's I was quite astounded to what extent the 'virtual technician' allows to create a desirable sound character of quite differing shades.

Ok Maurus, that is a valid thought. Now, if such details are so "true" and "lively", I question: why don´t they tell us so before we purchase those models.
Give me some detailed information of what I'm gonna find in a sample, so I'm able to choose if i want it or not. Just tell me, for instance, "we gave f# a jarring sound that we loved". "No matter if you play mf or ff, it will always be outlined. Isn't it organic?".
Or even better, let us know which parameters of Virtual Technician work well when being combined, and which don't. Make us suggestions we can test.
Make us even happier with your products.
I know I'm being naive.

By the way, and I'm honest here, what irritates more about such nuances is...that Kawai is almost nailing it. If they can do so many brilliant things, these sound ridiculously easy to fix.

Mabraman, change the room in which your acoustic piano is placed and it will change its oddities. Strongly. Leave a few glasses or plates in the room and it will change.

In the digital world: Change monitors, or headphones, and everything will change. Have you ever looked at the jagged frequency responce any speaker (in phones or monitors) provides? Or at the changes of that response in different environments?

Piano sounds are awfully rich things, and emphasizing even one tiny little partial can make a lot of a difference. (When I got my new grand a few years back I fiddled around for several weeks with felts dampening certain bits of the duplex scale to tone down certain partials. With a new upright bought for a friend several rounds of voicing were required to even out the sounds - to some extent. In both cases positioning the piano in the room required a lot of care. With my old upright I just live whith what's in it. In all cases - and I guess with a soundboard instrument such as the CS10 as well - placing a rug under or behind the piano makes a huge change. Etc.)

As always in music, there is no way around experimenting - and, in fact no way around adjusting to the particular equipment (instruments, setups) you are using. Whether this is a piano, a sax, or a violin.

Disclaimer: I can't say anything specific about a CS10 as I don't have one standing in my living room. But I loved the MP11 when playing it at last year's Musikmesse. (By the way, with halfway decent AKG headphones. Whereas Yamaha provided only the most basic phones for their new CLP line which made it totally impossible for me to judge their sounds.)

Some Facts ...

From June 10th forward, during 157 days I received two calls from Kawai. The first, promised a Tech would be scheduled. No eMails.

July 21st, I contacted my Dealer who has been excellent in contacting me by phone or eMail almost weekly regarding any progress with Kawai. They received notice on August 19th a Tech would be dispatched.

+++

On 11/18, after a long eMail to the Kawai Branch Manager and all involved, Juan called to tell me Alan would be working with me and a Tech may have to come out and swap some boards.

Since then, Alan initially spent an hour with me on the phone exploring things and we have exchanged 30 eMails. Alan has been very patient and kind. As have I. He is working hard to define my issue.
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Here's an idea ...

Send a Tech out. The one that was here March 19th, 2013 acknowledged the problem and could not fix it.

At present, Alan has contacted the Service Manager to see if a Tech can be scheduled to stop by. A good thing to do.
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mabraman

In the 1950's, a very large photo film processing plant did a survey of thousands of retail customers.

They asked "How many rolls of film do you use in a year?".

The answer. 1.7 per customer.

Kodak has came up with similar results back then.

Cameras were hardly used except for family gatherings.

Maybe a fair share of users employ headphones. A primary reason to go digital. Even mine sounds great in headphones.

Another fair share maybe lost their enthusiasm, as did I for a while.

Some probably do not care.

Probably another fair share of users, are churches or schools or other establishments. There may not be a central figure who would notice such things and act on them.

Most probably do not know anything of this Forum or others. Hence we represent a very small sampling of the total.

So, the few here that have questioned some notes that are more noticeable are truly a minority.
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I'm confused. What good would a technician do if it's a problem with the sample? Is he going to remake a sample and bring it to you? Wouldn't it make more sense if Kawai resampled that note and put it in an update? If not, what are you expecting a tech to do?