Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
126 registered (A Guy, 36251, accordeur, Alan Cyr, Abby Pianoman, 36 invisible), 1535 Guests and 20 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2355405 - Today at 09:36 AM Some observations about digital piano
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Twin Cities
There is criticism about digital pianos because it seems the real expectation is that the goal of the digital piano is to accurately emulate a "real" acoustic piano in all its aspects from a player's perspective, rather than being its own new instrument - the digital piano.

There seem to be quite a number of very discerning players who, for various reasons, can't have an acoustic piano and therefore must settle for a digital instrument. Such players here who have BOTH a digital and an acoustic, and use them each as appropriate, seem to fare better.

I am new to the piano, but have been playing jazz and fingerstyle guitar for many years, so I know the amount of isolated time and effort one must put into mastering one's instrument of choice.

Those who play piano well have obviously spent countless hours alone perfecting all aspects of their playing. It really must be frustrating for these people to have to reap the reward of all that work on a digital piano as a compromise, especially knowing what they could do on a "real" piano. I am certainly discovering how much effort it is taking to get anywhere on my instrument, and therefore have extra high regard for the recordings I have heard from people here. smile

Even the V-Piano seems, from reading here, to be well short of the ideal for this type of player. I have to say that I am truly grateful to not have that burden, so I can really enjoy my digital piano. The hours I put in are on a digital piano, so I will probably never develop the discerning ear and sense of touch on a good quality acoustic from which to make comparisons to what a digital piano "should" be.

I am not being facetious here. I truly mean what I am saying, and I don't believe those accomplished players expressing their dissatisfaction with digital pianos are being unnecessarily "bitchy" about it at all. Playing the guitar, I am extremely fortunate that I can have a very fine handmade acoustic instrument for less than $10,000, and have it my home regardless of where and how big the home is, or how close the neighbors may be.

In the guitar world, the electric guitar is considered a completely different instrument from an acoustic, so both are considered "valid" for a skilled player. I tend to prefer the acoustic guitar, both to play and to listen to, but for the electric player, what s/he is doing is considered entirely valid, rather than being an attempted emulation of the "real thing".

To me, the current state of the digital piano overall is wonderful and I would be happy with most of what is available, and I am sure it will only continue to improve in the future. But for somebody whose skill and level of discernment can only be satisfied by a fine acoustic, I can see where this may not be the case. Here's hoping for them that the time comes when this is no longer true, and that this accomplishment comes at an affordable level.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Special Financing on Digital Keyboards

Click Here


#2355414 - Today at 10:01 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1460
Loc: uk south
- so if I've understood you; satisfaction with DPs - even the best of them - is inversely proportional to the skill of the player?

Top
#2355420 - Today at 10:05 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
leafhound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 24

smile Each digital piano is different from the next. just like acoustics are.

The V-piano is a genuine substitute for an upright acoustic, yet neither are a genuine substitute for an acoustic grand. that said the V-piano has better action then on some grand pianos I've played.



Edited by leafhound (Today at 10:07 AM)
_________________________
hardware: M-AUDIO KEYSTATION 88
software: Ableton live 8

Top
#2355428 - Today at 10:31 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Twin Cities
I suppose the problem with a post such as I made here is that it was made with generalities, rather than specifics. Reading this forum over the period of a number of years on and off, I have seen a general dissatisfaction among the more skilled players with digital pianos, criticizing the nuances of the sound, the way samples are handled, keyboard touch, dynamics, pedalling, etc. Among those starting with piano who are buying their first, or upgrading, as a digital from their first with no ownership of an acoustic, people overall seem satisfied with their digital pianos.

As for gigging musicians who are using stage pianos, this observation doesn't seem to hold. For them, stage pianos enable them to gig, and it then merely becomes a question of what is more or less suitable to their specific needs, weight being a major factor as well as overall playability on its own merits.

As for the V-Piano, it does seem there are those who love it and see it as a true substitute for an acoustic (one thing I considered when I got my V-Grand), but then there are those who criticize its sound as being not acoustic enough (too metallic or whatever). I left my V-Grand out of this because I don't consider myself a discerning player yet (though I have posted observations here about how accurately it reproduces for me the same problems I have in technique with dynamics and pedalling on an acoustic), and I have only seen one person here mention that he has even played one.

As for differences between digital pianos, I agree that there are many differences between acoustic pianos (read the acoustic forum and this becomes quite clear) and that a decent digital piano seems to be regarded as being a better alternative to a poorly maintained acoustic.

However, I do understand how a person who has spent many, many hours over many years developing a very high level of skill as a player being reluctant to settle for a digital piano. Maybe that is more true for classical players than those who play other styles? Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

Top
#2355433 - Today at 10:45 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
jtsn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/14
Posts: 107
Loc: Europe
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile
_________________________
Kawai ES100, Yamaha NP-31, Steinberg UR-22, Moddart Pianoteq 5

Top
#2355437 - Today at 10:57 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 761
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony


Please give examples of jazz musicians gigging with V-piano. Please don't include artists getting paid by Roland.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

Top
#2355442 - Today at 11:05 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: 36251]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 342
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony


Please give examples of jazz musicians gigging with V-piano. Please don't include artists getting paid by Roland.


A common misconception there, We don't pay artists to use our instruments. We put our instruments in front of them and get their opinion, and if the player deems the instrument appropriate for their purposes; in exchange for promotional considerations, they get a deal to purchase, or a certain term of usage for their end. The promotional and marketing value is the offset for us.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

Top
#2355452 - Today at 11:25 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1495
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Tony's point is a good one:

. . . If you accept a DP for what it _is_, rather than
. . . what it's _based on_, you'll get a lot more fun out of it.

The equivalent of an electric guitar -- in the keyboard world -- is something like a Rhodes or Wurlitzer:

. . . A piano-like instrument, that nobody pretends is an acoustic piano.

Or in a different realm, a Hammond organ (or its electronic clones), that nobody pretends is a pipe organ.

What we don't have yet (and may never have) is a "Concerto for DP & Orchestra", or a "Rhodes quintet" (although Kronos may have done stuff like that). What we _do_ have is uncounted hours of good jazz / pop / blues, both live and recorded.

. Charles

Top
#2355453 - Today at 11:25 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: jtsn]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

Top
#2355458 - Today at 11:36 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 342
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony



Ah....you have yet to try a GK Equipped guitar with a GR-55....Some Amazing stuff can be done with those two beasts!

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

Top
#2355463 - Today at 11:59 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: Jay Roland]
TonyB Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony



Ah....you have yet to try a GK Equipped guitar with a GR-55....Some Amazing stuff can be done with those two beasts!

Jay


My personal experience with the GK-2 (I understand now there is a GK-3) midi pickup was that it was a bit of a hassle to get installed properly on my guitars. I tried it on an archtop, but had better success on a solid body. I know there was (and maybe still is) a Roland-ready Fender Telescaster (or was it a Strat). I am sure that works very well. At the time I was using this setup, I had a Roland VG-8 (first generation virtual guitar device) and a GR-20 (floor midi sound module from same vintage). So, unlike the Yamaha G-10, the Roland GK pickup is intended to be used on a "real" guitar.

With ANY of the midi guitar technology, it seems that the player must adjust his or her playing to the midi device to get as clean a tracking as possible without the false triggers, missed notes, and simply wrong notes. There is a conversion process in which the midi pickup must convert the analog actions of the strings to midi messages, and the guitar is a very expressive device from which the actions of the player are very difficult to convert with consistent accuracy, since every time a player makes contact with one or more strings to play notes, that contact can be different from previous contacts. It takes real practice to get reasonably consistent results from a midi-equipped guitar. If a player has the patience for this effort, the results can be very gratifying. Relatively few players seem to have that patience. I admit to being among these. smile

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

Top
#2355596 - 1 minute 52 seconds ago Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: jtsn]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5432
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile

The V-Piano and Grand are modelled, not sampled, and they only have piano sounds. (28 in the original V, 30 in the Grand).

No EP, no organ, no harpsichord, no rubbish stuff, in other words.

No doubt, that has put many people off buying them, but that was actually one of the V's attractions for me. I really don't want want an organ that uses a piano action. (I also play on real pipe organs in churches occasionally). Nor a harpsichord that uses a piano action. (Ditto for harpsichords). Nor a string instrument that plays like a piano> (ditto.......).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
1875 legs and lyre where to get?
by Klavimaniac
7 minutes 19 seconds ago
"It Don't mean A Thing (If it Ain't...
by prout
Today at 04:43 PM
Yamaha CP33?
by Possum SP280Krome
Today at 04:16 PM
E4 Just Won't Come Into Tune
by Cobra1365
Today at 03:49 PM
10k budget for a piano in SW Ontario
by bogdan101
Today at 03:47 PM
Forum Stats
77071 Members
42 Forums
159405 Topics
2341598 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission