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#2355405 - Yesterday at 09:36 AM Some observations about digital piano
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
There is criticism about digital pianos because it seems the real expectation is that the goal of the digital piano is to accurately emulate a "real" acoustic piano in all its aspects from a player's perspective, rather than being its own new instrument - the digital piano.

There seem to be quite a number of very discerning players who, for various reasons, can't have an acoustic piano and therefore must settle for a digital instrument. Such players here who have BOTH a digital and an acoustic, and use them each as appropriate, seem to fare better.

I am new to the piano, but have been playing jazz and fingerstyle guitar for many years, so I know the amount of isolated time and effort one must put into mastering one's instrument of choice.

Those who play piano well have obviously spent countless hours alone perfecting all aspects of their playing. It really must be frustrating for these people to have to reap the reward of all that work on a digital piano as a compromise, especially knowing what they could do on a "real" piano. I am certainly discovering how much effort it is taking to get anywhere on my instrument, and therefore have extra high regard for the recordings I have heard from people here. smile

Even the V-Piano seems, from reading here, to be well short of the ideal for this type of player. I have to say that I am truly grateful to not have that burden, so I can really enjoy my digital piano. The hours I put in are on a digital piano, so I will probably never develop the discerning ear and sense of touch on a good quality acoustic from which to make comparisons to what a digital piano "should" be.

I am not being facetious here. I truly mean what I am saying, and I don't believe those accomplished players expressing their dissatisfaction with digital pianos are being unnecessarily "bitchy" about it at all. Playing the guitar, I am extremely fortunate that I can have a very fine handmade acoustic instrument for less than $10,000, and have it my home regardless of where and how big the home is, or how close the neighbors may be.

In the guitar world, the electric guitar is considered a completely different instrument from an acoustic, so both are considered "valid" for a skilled player. I tend to prefer the acoustic guitar, both to play and to listen to, but for the electric player, what s/he is doing is considered entirely valid, rather than being an attempted emulation of the "real thing".

To me, the current state of the digital piano overall is wonderful and I would be happy with most of what is available, and I am sure it will only continue to improve in the future. But for somebody whose skill and level of discernment can only be satisfied by a fine acoustic, I can see where this may not be the case. Here's hoping for them that the time comes when this is no longer true, and that this accomplishment comes at an affordable level.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355414 - Yesterday at 10:01 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1462
Loc: uk south
- so if I've understood you; satisfaction with DPs - even the best of them - is inversely proportional to the skill of the player?

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#2355420 - Yesterday at 10:05 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
leafhound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 25

smile Each digital piano is different from the next. just like acoustics are.

The V-piano is a genuine substitute for an upright acoustic, yet neither are a genuine substitute for an acoustic grand. that said the V-piano has better action then on some grand pianos I've played.



Edited by leafhound (Yesterday at 10:07 AM)
_________________________
hardware: M-AUDIO KEYSTATION 88
software: Ableton live 8

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#2355428 - Yesterday at 10:31 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
I suppose the problem with a post such as I made here is that it was made with generalities, rather than specifics. Reading this forum over the period of a number of years on and off, I have seen a general dissatisfaction among the more skilled players with digital pianos, criticizing the nuances of the sound, the way samples are handled, keyboard touch, dynamics, pedalling, etc. Among those starting with piano who are buying their first, or upgrading, as a digital from their first with no ownership of an acoustic, people overall seem satisfied with their digital pianos.

As for gigging musicians who are using stage pianos, this observation doesn't seem to hold. For them, stage pianos enable them to gig, and it then merely becomes a question of what is more or less suitable to their specific needs, weight being a major factor as well as overall playability on its own merits.

As for the V-Piano, it does seem there are those who love it and see it as a true substitute for an acoustic (one thing I considered when I got my V-Grand), but then there are those who criticize its sound as being not acoustic enough (too metallic or whatever). I left my V-Grand out of this because I don't consider myself a discerning player yet (though I have posted observations here about how accurately it reproduces for me the same problems I have in technique with dynamics and pedalling on an acoustic), and I have only seen one person here mention that he has even played one.

As for differences between digital pianos, I agree that there are many differences between acoustic pianos (read the acoustic forum and this becomes quite clear) and that a decent digital piano seems to be regarded as being a better alternative to a poorly maintained acoustic.

However, I do understand how a person who has spent many, many hours over many years developing a very high level of skill as a player being reluctant to settle for a digital piano. Maybe that is more true for classical players than those who play other styles? Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355433 - Yesterday at 10:45 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
jtsn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Europe
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile
_________________________
Kawai ES100, Yamaha NP-31, Steinberg UR-22, Moddart Pianoteq 5

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#2355437 - Yesterday at 10:57 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 761
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony


Please give examples of jazz musicians gigging with V-piano. Please don't include artists getting paid by Roland.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2355442 - Yesterday at 11:05 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: 36251]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 342
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Certainly the V-Piano has gotten high praise from gigging jazz musicians on Youtube, for example.

Tony


Please give examples of jazz musicians gigging with V-piano. Please don't include artists getting paid by Roland.


A common misconception there, We don't pay artists to use our instruments. We put our instruments in front of them and get their opinion, and if the player deems the instrument appropriate for their purposes; in exchange for promotional considerations, they get a deal to purchase, or a certain term of usage for their end. The promotional and marketing value is the offset for us.

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2355452 - Yesterday at 11:25 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1496
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Tony's point is a good one:

. . . If you accept a DP for what it _is_, rather than
. . . what it's _based on_, you'll get a lot more fun out of it.

The equivalent of an electric guitar -- in the keyboard world -- is something like a Rhodes or Wurlitzer:

. . . A piano-like instrument, that nobody pretends is an acoustic piano.

Or in a different realm, a Hammond organ (or its electronic clones), that nobody pretends is a pipe organ.

What we don't have yet (and may never have) is a "Concerto for DP & Orchestra", or a "Rhodes quintet" (although Kronos may have done stuff like that). What we _do_ have is uncounted hours of good jazz / pop / blues, both live and recorded.

. Charles

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#2355453 - Yesterday at 11:25 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: jtsn]
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355458 - Yesterday at 11:36 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
Jay Roland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/13
Posts: 342
Loc: White Rock, BC.
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony



Ah....you have yet to try a GK Equipped guitar with a GR-55....Some Amazing stuff can be done with those two beasts!

Jay
_________________________
National Piano Sales Manager for Roland Canada.
www.roland.ca
t: RCMPianoGuy

I'm sure that Jay (along with every other product manager in recorded history) is quite accustomed to hearing different customers assert "X" and "not-X" with equal conviction. - slowtraveler

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#2355463 - Yesterday at 11:59 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: Jay Roland]
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: Jay Roland
Originally Posted By: TonyB
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Well, there is a difference between an electric guitar and a digital guitar trying to emulate an acoustic guitar. Does a digital guitar even exist? wink

I agree, electric pianos are an own instrument class. Digital pianos try to emulate these, too. Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile


I have never seen the guitar equivalent of the digital piano, and really see no reason for such a product. However, I have seen and worked with midi guitars - a guitar-like instrument whose purpose is to output midi information to drive a sound module that emulates other instruments. To me, midi guitar has had varying degrees of success, but never really worked consistently well because there is much that a player can do, with fingers actually touching and bending guitar strings (unlike the typical keyboard instrument), to effectively capture in real time and digitize into midi information in a timely (i.e. no or minimal lag) manner. Yamaha probably came closest with their G-10, but all the strings were G strings, rather than having the different strings of a typical "real" guitar.

Tony



Ah....you have yet to try a GK Equipped guitar with a GR-55....Some Amazing stuff can be done with those two beasts!

Jay


My personal experience with the GK-2 (I understand now there is a GK-3) midi pickup was that it was a bit of a hassle to get installed properly on my guitars. I tried it on an archtop, but had better success on a solid body. I know there was (and maybe still is) a Roland-ready Fender Telescaster (or was it a Strat). I am sure that works very well. At the time I was using this setup, I had a Roland VG-8 (first generation virtual guitar device) and a GR-20 (floor midi sound module from same vintage). So, unlike the Yamaha G-10, the Roland GK pickup is intended to be used on a "real" guitar.

With ANY of the midi guitar technology, it seems that the player must adjust his or her playing to the midi device to get as clean a tracking as possible without the false triggers, missed notes, and simply wrong notes. There is a conversion process in which the midi pickup must convert the analog actions of the strings to midi messages, and the guitar is a very expressive device from which the actions of the player are very difficult to convert with consistent accuracy, since every time a player makes contact with one or more strings to play notes, that contact can be different from previous contacts. It takes real practice to get reasonably consistent results from a midi-equipped guitar. If a player has the patience for this effort, the results can be very gratifying. Relatively few players seem to have that patience. I admit to being among these. smile

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355596 - Yesterday at 06:11 PM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: jtsn]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5437
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile

The V-Piano and Grand are modelled, not sampled, and they only have piano sounds. (28 in the original V, 30 in the Grand).

No EP, no organ, no harpsichord, no rubbish stuff, in other words.

No doubt, that has put many people off buying them, but that was actually one of the V's attractions for me. I really don't want want an organ that uses a piano action. (I also play on real pipe organs in churches occasionally). Nor a harpsichord that uses a piano action. (Ditto for harpsichords). Nor a string instrument that plays like a piano> (ditto.......).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2355612 - Yesterday at 06:58 PM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: bennevis]
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Is there any DP, which doesn't have an EP preset onboard? And we have eletronic organs, which are emulated by DPs, too.

So what are DPs then? It's simple: They are sample-based sound synthesizers emulating other instruments. Emulating not only the piano, also harpsichord, string ensembles, acoustic bass or even guitar.

Digital synthesizers aka romplers are nothing new (they exist for decades) and they don't change their nature, just because we give them a new name. They are playing back and processing samples recorded from a real musical instrument. smile

The V-Piano and Grand are modelled, not sampled, and they only have piano sounds. (28 in the original V, 30 in the Grand).

No EP, no organ, no harpsichord, no rubbish stuff, in other words.

No doubt, that has put many people off buying them, but that was actually one of the V's attractions for me. I really don't want want an organ that uses a piano action. (I also play on real pipe organs in churches occasionally). Nor a harpsichord that uses a piano action. (Ditto for harpsichords). Nor a string instrument that plays like a piano> (ditto.......).


That is all I wanted too - just piano, the best I could get in a digital. If it were not for the discussion here about the V-Piano, I would have never known...

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355679 - Today at 02:07 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3806
Loc: Northern England.
That's amazing! People will pay megabucks not to have other instruments on their digitals. . . I know. I'll invent a tele with only one channel. . . . smile
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2355712 - Today at 06:26 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: peterws]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5437
Originally Posted By: peterws
That's amazing! People will pay megabucks not to have other instruments on their digitals. . . I know. I'll invent a tele with only one channel. . . . smile

That would be like the V-Piano with just one piano sound rather than 28. And I definitely want 28 channels on my TV. At least.

But I don't want my TV to serve me microwave meals. (My personal Michelin-starred chef does that wink ).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2355714 - Today at 06:32 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3871
Loc: North Carolina
Lucky for you that you're in the UK where there's quality programming enough to supply multiple TV channels. Over here there's not adequate quality to fill even one channel. If you take out the mindless junk ... all we'd need is one channel. So your "tele with only one channel" would be just the ticket for the US.

As for "megabucks not to have other instruments" ... I think the real point is that there's a strong desire to find a digital that behaves like an acoustic. Is it anyone's goal to shed non-piano sounds? Or is it just marketing that puts piano-only into the best-sounding digitals.

There are very few digitals that come even close to an acoustic. Most are so far from the goal that it's best to drop the word "piano" and just call them "digitals" ... disappointing, but honest.

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#2355749 - Today at 09:34 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: peterws]
TonyB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 437
Loc: Twin Cities
Originally Posted By: peterws
That's amazing! People will pay megabucks not to have other instruments on their digitals. . . I know. I'll invent a tele with only one channel. . . . smile


Everybody has different wants/needs, so the digital piano market is perfect in offering a wide variety of choices. If I want all kinds of instruments, I will buy a workstation such as the Motif XS series. If I want a digital piano that does piano really well, I will get one that focuses on doing piano really well. Right now, the V-Grand is it for me. But then again, what is right for me may not necessarily be right for somebody else - "choices" is the order of the day, and each to his or her own.

Tony
_________________________
Roland V-Grand
Casio PX-5S
My blog: http://ajourneyintomusic.blogspot.com

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#2355756 - Today at 09:54 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: bennevis]
jtsn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/14
Posts: 109
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: bennevis
The V-Piano and Grand are modelled, not sampled, and they only have piano sounds. (28 in the original V, 30 in the Grand).

But that doesn't change anything about what I said about digital synthesizers, which DPs still are. smile

It's the nature of modeled instruments to allow having a lot of presets. Look how many Pianoteq has. Also harpsichords and clavichords can be modeled and Pianoteq does that, too, at about 1/50 of the price of a V-Piano. And if you don't like using a hammer action keyboard for this, you simply attach a different one.
_________________________
Kawai ES100, Yamaha NP-31, Steinberg UR-22, Moddart Pianoteq 5

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#2355764 - Today at 10:33 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: jtsn]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5437
Originally Posted By: jtsn
Originally Posted By: bennevis
The V-Piano and Grand are modelled, not sampled, and they only have piano sounds. (28 in the original V, 30 in the Grand).

But that doesn't change anything about what I said about digital synthesizers, which DPs still are. smile

It's the nature of modeled instruments to allow having a lot of presets. Look how many Pianoteq has. Also harpsichords and clavichords can be modeled and Pianoteq does that, too, at about 1/50 of the price of a V-Piano. And if you don't like using a hammer action keyboard for this, you simply attach a different one.

The acid test, for me as an acoustic die-hard (I've played acoustics since I was ten, which was a few millennia ago wink , and only started looking at DPs four years ago, which was how I bought the V), is whether a digital (or synth, or whatever you want to call it) sounds convincing as an acoustic substitute, and responds so closely to the way an acoustic responds to every nuance that you can lose yourself into playing it, and not be reminded that you're not playing a mechanical instrument.

The only digital that passed this test in 2010 was the V-Piano. Since then, its big brother joined this selective group. To this date, nothing else by any manufacturer - including Roland - has come anywhere close.

I also tried Pianoteq a few weeks ago - and though better in its responsiveness than most sampled DPs, it's still severely lacking in sheer playability, and still sounds divorced from the mechanics of playing.

BTW, the new edition of the British magazine Pianist has just appeared (issue No.81, Dec 2014-Jan 2015). On its cover CD, where a concert pianist plays all the music included within its pages, are two extra tracks provided by Yamaha, of a Schubert Impromptu (D899/2) and Debussy's Rêverie, played on a "new Clavinova", which seems to be the CLP-535. The pianist isn't credited, and no wonder - the sound is horribly 'electronic' and processed, lacking any resonances of any sort. Looping is clearly evident.

The recording quality can't be blamed - it's probably as good a recording as you're likely to get of any digital, but even listened to in isolation, it sounds synthetic, nothing like the CFX (which presumably was source of the samples). But when heard next to the Steinway D tracks, you realize how lacking the sampled digital sound really is.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2355775 - Today at 11:03 AM Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: bennevis]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1462
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: bennevis

The acid test, for me as an acoustic die-hard (I've played acoustics since I was ten, which was a few millennia ago wink , and only started looking at DPs four years ago, which was how I bought the V), is whether a digital (or synth, or whatever you want to call it) sounds convincing as an acoustic substitute, and responds so closely to the way an acoustic responds to every nuance that you can lose yourself into playing it, and not be reminded that you're not playing a mechanical instrument.

The only digital that passed this test in 2010 was the V-Piano. Since then, its big brother joined this selective group. To this date, nothing else by any manufacturer - including Roland - has come anywhere close.

I've mentioned before that the sense of realism delivered by a DP will depend also on the style of music being played. I've not yet heard anything of the V-piano which suggests it would have enough organic character (as I hear it!) to do justice to e.g. a blues style of playing.

I realise blues is not your thing but it is mine, and if a DP is failing to convince the player interested in a particular style then it can hardly be described as a fully successful emulation.

I'd be interested to listen to any recorded performances that you feel show off the V-piano at its best. I was left cold by George Duke (the sound, not the playing!) - could you link to something you like?

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#2355789 - 23 minutes 0 seconds ago Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
bnolsen Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 157
Loc: Colorado
what needs to be remembered is that digitals are not stagnant, they are constantly improving. I could almost state that some of the digital actions are at a good enough level for responsiveness. Perhaps they aren't up to the level of a 20,000usd grand piano maybe. It seems the sound reproduction is the remaining piece and that's mostly software modelling, the computer hardware is convincingly there. I would think systems like the laminate soundboard of the kawai ca95 are pretty close to providing the reproduction part.

Comparisons of digital pianos to open stringed instruments are fairly irrelevant. I know especially on electric bass guitars there's huge variety due to finger style vs picked vs tapping vs slapping and the variation of sound where the string is picked and the balance settings between having multiple pickups, and there's the fret hand pitch bending, etc. The number of inputs makes it inordinately difficult to model.

Other than trying to model standing up and playing the strings inside of a grand piano (i don't like that anyways) the model has fewer and more predictable parameters.

I predict that the acoustic market will only continue to erode even further and preferences will become more of a generational thing. Acoustics will be around but the low end market will mostly disappear.

Sorry, having gone through a decently drawn out search for an acoustic piano I found the whole process to be a huge pain. With digitals the pain is trying to figure out which model to buy. With an acoustic it's more like a used car selection and the prices start above the most expensive digitals.

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#2355798 - 7 minutes 34 seconds ago Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: bnolsen]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3871
Loc: North Carolina
This is a common myth:
Originally Posted By: bnolsen
what needs to be remembered is that digitals are not stagnant, they are constantly improving.
Digital pianos change very slowly. Very.

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#2355800 - 1 minute 23 seconds ago Re: Some observations about digital piano [Re: TonyB]
bnolsen Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 157
Loc: Colorado
what myth is this? in the past 20 years the change in digitals has been dramatic. The improvement in action alone is quite phenomenal. The improvement would have been faster if the yamaha clp990 hadn't been killed so quickly.

20 years ago the industry was just emerging from FM sythesis and was working on a few megabytes sampling with a few megabytes disk storage. Current embedded computers easily and very cheaply come with 1GB ram and 16+GB storage, both components costing in the 1usd range.

I don't think pianoteq or whatever other like software had near the capability 10 years ago even if they were around much.

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