Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum online piano courses - anyone have any experience with them?

Thank you Earl, I downloaded this and will check it out.

Thank you. Yes, I was also recommended this method book elsewhere, and this might be something I could use. At the moment there seems to be a new edition on the way, so I'll wait for that one.

Amen.

One of the greatest self-teaching tools I have discovered is a "game" called Synthesia which is similar to Guitar Hero in respect that there are notes falling on the displayed piano keys letting you to see how some song is played. There are tons of different songs available and one can even upload their own MIDI files to be played. When connected to digital piano, you can make it so that the music stops when you play wrong note. This is kind of like a virtual teacher next to you saying "No no, have a better look at which note needs to be played." I like to hide the falling notes and replace the section with moving notation view so that I can practice reading notes as well.

So what I did was I created a set of MIDI files and PDFs to be used along with Synthesia that includes hand independence exercises, scales, chords, simple song practices. Ended up with over 60 "lessons" to practice the very basic things when starting with piano.

Synthesia is a useful tool in practising and getting down tricky chord progressions. It is sometimes frowned upon, accused of introducing bad habits, but not rightly so, in my opinion.

I'd like to mention pianocrumbs.com as well, which works pretty much like Synthesia. You can buy up to a year's subscription at a low price, but they also have a YouTube site, which is of course free. Pianocrumbs has given my piano journey a much needed boost.

I really like their arrangements of popular songs. They strive to make them very playable, yet as close to the original song as they can get. I can't say their arrangements are easy, but they try to make them as structured and playable as can be.

Users can also buy the MIDI files, but that's not necessary in my opinion. I just play the songs from the website (have a subscription) and if I feel I need the MIDI file of some song, I just make it myself, from the corresponding video. It's not that hard, because the arrangements are so clearly structured.

I was recommended to have a look at Jaak Sikk (http://playingpianoblog.com/learn-to-play-the-piano/). So I did, and it looks very interesting. First month is free, so one can see if it's what one would like. And the continuing 11-month program is only $38 per month (only pay for a month at a time so can stop whenever), and if it's any good at all, that's a bargain.

It seems like having the benefit of a teacher (one on one feedback, lesson program etc) without the drawbacks (tied to a schedule, personal dislikes and what not), and nothing to stop me from doing 'my own music' on the side. Might be a good way to ensure I get a 'right start' this time around, and perhaps prevent bad habits forming.

Sorry I haven't replied before now, I haven't been on PW for a while.

Firstly Jytte, I can't help but try to offer some constructive criticism. Are you able to get the keyboard on a higher table? It's hard to see from that angle exactly what's going on, but your posture looks a bit out of whack. See how your wrist is dipped into a sort of V shape....that's not good. Your forearm should be parallel to the floor, with wrist up. In my old YT videos I shot from the side. I'll link to one of those so you can see what I mean about the wrist being up:

http://youtu.be/tEA4l4pDk7k

See how my wrist isn't dipped down? This lets weight from my back flow down to my fingers so they don't have to do all the work. Dipping your wrist like that breaks the flow, and can also do nerve damage if you practice too long with it like that. If you get the piano to the right height so that your forearms are parallel to the ground while you're playing, and play on the corner of your thumb nail with your thumb and 2nd finger making a "C" shape (if you're doing this, your wrist will be at the right height) it will really help with your technique. You're doing very well though. If you can do that in a month on your own you obviously have a natural ability for learning piano.

As far as Alfred's adult books, I have to agree I'm not a fan. I don't mind the repertoire choices so much as that it relies too heavily on chords for the left hand, which doesn't develop the left hand properly, and the progression is unrealistically fast, given that most adults won't be practicing half an hour a day.

I would like to take on more adult students so that I can work more morning hours, so I've been looking around for a better method. I have Carol Barrett's "The classsic piano course" in the mail on its way to me. A few on here have said that one is good.

At the moment though my favourite adult course is the Hal Leonard Adult Method. This is the playlist for book 1 if you want to take a look, and I'm working on book 2 at the moment:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeW-cELRAmSnRzMEVP4GG_J8LanEi79qS

It has a more adult selection of songs that I think may appeal to you more, and develops both hands equally.

Thank you Beth, for your reply and advice. Very much appreciated.

This is gonna be long, but I think it's important to share this, not just with you, but others in the same place I am.

As you might have seen in other posts I joined Jaak's program in the meantime. What attracted me among other things was the repertoire that the follow-up course goes through. Real great pieces, that I'd love to learn.

Yes, that old video was awful, wasn't it. I didn't realize at the time, how could I? Now I look at it and flinch The video was only meant to show that I, on my own, was able to play some nice tunes after only 1 month (and I was very proud of that). That's what I was focused on, and didn't pay attention to the rest. In looking back, I know that Andrew's videos covered this (techniques) in detail, and I know I listened attentively, but then it all got lost in the pursuit of songs to play. Reason of course being that one has no feedback if only watching videos (and not paying attention).
All my own fault. This video should be posted here as a warning

The 'dip' btw, isn't because of the keyboard, but because of the combination of me sitting (or rather slouching) on a dining chair, and not knowing what I was doing.

Even before I came here, in my second shot at piano, I had realized A) (from watching others play) that my technique was very wrong, and B) that I would never progress anywhere on the path I was going.

I realized that if I'm going to go anywhere at all with this, I need someone to tell me what I'm doing wrong, not just tell me what to do right. And for that you need two-way communication. So a teacher was the answer to that. But you know from my previous posts that my attitude towards teachers in general left something to be desired (not that I didn't have reasons). And even if I wanted to, I couldn't go find a 'live' teacher hereabouts, because I live in Germany. I do speak the language in my business and daily life, but my 'daily language' that we speak in this house, is English. I am unable to follow complex explanations, or express complex feelings etc. in German. And that isn't exactly the best grounds for a student-teacher relationship. So online it had to be somehow.

Enter a pointer from a fellow forum member. And now I'm getting lessons and feedback. You'll be happy to know that in the 4 short days I've been following Jaak's program, my position of body, arms, wrists, hands, fingers has changed radically (no more dips). I'm now on my 3rd lesson, and able to do things I never thought possible in such a short time. It's all about technique of course, and that's what I am learning.

On material. It had a major impact on my decision. This is the list:
1) J. S.Bach/C.Petzold – Menuet in G Major
2) P. Tchaikovsky – “Old French Song”
3) S. Prokofiev – “Morning” from “Music for Children”
4) J. Haydn – Menuet in F Major
5) J.S. Bach – Prelude in C Major WTC I
6) J. Sikk – “Variations”
7) L. van Beethoven – “Für Elise”

I had gone through the 'inventory' of the many programs out there, and each time I'd go 'Awful, I'm not playing that'. I saw this list and went: Now THAT looks interesting. Für Elise has always been on my 'oh I wish I could play some day' list. The others I didn't recognize by name and had to check them on YouTube. And I know and liked all of them... except Prokofiev, that one I could live happily without having to play, but as means to an end I dare say, I'll survive that one too.

Next reaction was: This guy is gonna make me play all of those in the next 11 months? No way. Checked if they were just 'simple versions'. Nope, the real deal. Then of course the first introductory part is free, so what did I have to loose?
I asked 'are you seriously telling me I will learn this?' And was told I would, providing I do as I'm told and practice of course.

So, I joined. One of my first misgivings was that I'd just get the feedback in the line of 'you're doing great bla bla bla', I mean we all know there are people out there who'd do anything for a buck. But that's not the case. I have a 'real' teacher, and he tells it like it is. If you're lousy, he'll tell you (you send him videos of you playing, as you learn the lessons - or not) And that's why a simple 'Well Done' sends you sky high.

I probably had more work to do and more trouble in the first days, than most might, because.. well, you've seen the video... there was a lot of issues I had to work on. It's much harder to undo bad habits than to just learn new ones.

And now I'm amazed at how each day and each lesson brings so much progress. I'm having so much fun with my lessons, now that I have tools to work with. And I just can't wait to get to Menuet in G. The sheet is sitting on my keyboard telling me 'just a few more weeks of hard work, and I'm next'.

It's all about technique, and developing both hands equally. I can't believe, after years of having my left basically nothing but a 'claw' hitting solid chords, I now play melodies in either hand. Before I'd look at the sheets of music I liked, with arpeggios and what not in the left, and I'd think 'how on earth can you play that?' and 'I'll never learn that'. And now I can see exactly how that will be possible, and in the very near future to boot.

Now, this course may not be for everyone. Guess it depends on what kind of person you are, and what you want to achieve. The video's that you study are very dense. You have to pay attention to every last word. You have to practice every day and practice well. And you have to do exactly what you're told, which I (amazingly enough) don't mind in the least, because I want to learn so bad.

One of my first questions was: This is a 'classical' study and those are pretty big pieces (in my book). I only have a 61 key keyboard, a very modest model, and no pedal. Can I participate at all? And I was told, yes you can. It would probably be a good idea to get something with 88 keys later, and if that is not possible, then I will help you by adjusting the sheet, but you should get a pedal (working with a pedal is an early lesson).

Amazon provided me with a nice pedal for 18 bucks. And I'm already window shopping pianos. If I get to a point where Elise is in the horizon, I'm definitely getting a bigger piano

So, to all other hopefuls out there: Where there's a will, there's a way, you just have to find the right one for you.

Once again, Beth, really appreciate your interest and input.

Wow, I'm glad you've found a program that suits you, and allows you to get feedback. Thanks for sharing your story, I enjoyed reading it

Too many courses for adults focus on pieces that adults generally like, giving easy accessible supporting chords, and similar so that the adult can get some basic playing ability without having to work at it for years. The end goal is kept in mind. Jaak starts with basic physical principles that will support a student's playing, which gets practised to suitable music. If you think about it, adults do not use their bodies as naturally as children, and our bodies are not as forgiving as a child's - so this should be a priority.

As Jytte says, his material is very "dense". In the studio you might repeat something over many lessons until a student picks up most of it; not so here. But we can also watch a clip many times.

There is an introduction in which students are told how to practice: regularly, applying what is taught, making sure you've gotten it - and there will be feedback. Next, how to sit, in detail. I especially like that he stresses the flexibility of the body - that you don't sit stiffly ramrod straight. Then finally the hand itself, knuckle support of fingers, with detailed exploration, how it all moves. All this is still intro., and I'd go back to that section to make sure not to miss anything.

The very first lesson applies these things. The student plays a very simple melody, almost a 5 note scale, with one hand, and only one finger, so that he can get at the physical lesson - the support and the movement in hand and arm. The student is to play that melody with each finger in turn, and exchange hands. The accompanying hand plays an open 5th - and he gives a physical instruction on this too.

There are I think 8 introductory lessons, each to be done over 2 weeks, each in a pair, and each teaching some kind of principle. ** If ** a student follows the principles diligently and practises daily as he sets out, then s/he should have a set of habits supporting playing, and allowing it to be musical because of the underlying skills. I appreciate the value of the first thing he teaches, because when I self taught as a child I ended up with "fingery" playing and have had to learn to bring the hand and arm into the picture, and get flexibility in there. How lovely if a student starts the right way.

Potential weaknesses: If a student rushes through superficially because the first melodies are easy (the point being the technique); or misses the principles being taught; or misinterprets them and does the wrong thing; or if a student is careless and doesn't want to work in such detail. But that's up to the student. As students, we need something to work with that will support us --- if this kind of advice isn't there, we can't use what doesn't exist.

Beth, you are a genius!!

As I told you above, I have changed my position on the piano since starting my lessons. With great effect. But I was still struggling to get it right. Bad habits are hard to break. Now, as you mentioned you could not see what the problem was on that old video. My new videos are at a similar angle, so here you can't see the whole position or the relation between piano/chair/student either. So Jaak is unable to see anything really but the resulting hand position. I couldn't see anything either. I also couldn't really judge the different angles or distances for myself.

After reading your post last night, I guess my brain chewed on that overnight. This morning I decided to make a study of it. So made some snapshots from Jaak's videos to have some pictures of the correct position. Then recruited my husband and a camera to get some side angle pictures. I explained the issue, and he had a look and said: She's right, that piano IS too low. Now, I cannot change the chair without sawing off the legs (yes, I'm also shopping for an adjustable bench now), my husband, being the genius that he is, went in the garage for some leftover garden tiles and jacked up the piano 1.5" (3cm). I could feel the difference right away. We took some pictures, and I compared to Jaak's pictures, and voila, they match. I sat down for a bit of practice, and could feel how much easier it is now to 'get it right'.

That made me have a second look at my computer setup. You see, I spend up to 10 hours a day in front of my PC, typing away. If I spend hours and hours typing, and then hop over to the piano... how can I expect my body to adjust to a different position? So with 'correct piano position' in mind, I also adjusted that whole setup (here I have a real good office chair, so that was a lot easier). I imagine this will have a huge impact as well. I also think this might alleviate some of the problems I've been having occasionally with wrist pain when typing a lot.

TO ANYBODY ELSE STARTING OUT ON PIANO: I hope you really pay attention to what I've been saying here. It is of the utmost importance that you get this right from the start, or you will end up in the same rut I did. Pay attention to how it is supposed to be, and get somebody to help you get yourself positioned right, because it's next to impossible to judge when you're sitting there. And if you spend many hours by a PC, make sure the habits you form here don't have a negative effect on the habits you're trying to form on the piano.

So Beth, you really are a genius! And I cannot thank you enough for your help

BEFORE:


AFTER:

Fantastic! And your posture at the piano now is spot on!

The subject of on line piano courses; I found Yohondo.com to be interesting. There's some cut down content on Youtube, but there's no Android App which counts me out from taking part in the full course.

YOHONDO.COM

Yohondo on Youtube

Interesting. I wonder why they chose to release 13 apps instead of making all songs available in a single app?

I wondered the same thing. I wouldn't want to have all those apps littered on my ipad. I know I could stick them in a common folder, but that's just not very elegant. It's an odd choice.

"Jacking up the piano"
I started to look and evaluate the height and playing position at my upright Yamaha U7 piano a while back, and found that it is too low.
That depends on your own body build, of course.
There's a lot of tradition built into a piano. In old times people were shorter/children learning to play,etc. Hence a traditional height is inherent in the design.But why be locked and restricted to these dimensions if times are changing?
So I think,and a lot of people will say I'm wrong...lol...but to me I'm still right,that my piano is too low.
So,I ended up lifting it up about 4½ cm from the floor using solid wood support.
I thought I would find it uncomfortable in the beginning with the new height of the keybed,but don't experience any of this now after a few weeks.
You could argue that an adjustable bench will solve everything, and I don't have one, but your upper legs angle for the pedals will change.
So,I think that one will have to consider both heights.
I.e.both the height of the piano and the bench.

Do you use heel support for your pedal foot -- to get it into a comfortable range of motion?

I posed the question to them on their Facebook page and they said that people preferred it that way. Ah well.

They also said that MIDI support is something that they're considering (for those of us that do the majority of their practice on headphones at night), but it's not a high priority right now.

Good to see that they're listening to suggestions though.

I'm not sure about that, but I asked, and they've told me, they will be working on developing apps for Androids next year.

Hi John,
I put sheets of solid wood under the whole piano area,and that includes the player's feet also.
So everything except for the bench area.
It's such an obvious solution/adaptation for an even better playing position but so easy to overlook. It's so easy to think that it's a perfectly designed instrument for any human build. After all. it's been around for more than a hundred years. So how could anything be wrong...and everything ought to be easily fixed with the height of the bench :-)
I wish I had realized this much earlier. I was thinking too much "inside the box"....haha.
Although it might not suit everybody. Most people will have to think about the aesthetic aspects of it, so will require more work input.