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#2362540 - 12/16/14 11:05 PM Digital piano - future specs - what is your request?
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Question:

With no money or physical space limitations, what kind of digital would you want or prefer, and why?

As for myself I must admit that I am not particularly interested in any of today's current offerings although it would be nice to be able to sit down at an AvantGrand N3 with a Roland V-Piano Grand sitting right next to it for direct comparison.

As for buying one or the other neither the N3 or V-Grand have ALL of the features for sound and action that I would want, under one lid. I am still waiting to see if any digital (new, or, otherwise) can rival a real acoustic instrument.

Will there be a hybrid model that eventually combines elements of digital modeling with an acoustic action that might work?

All thoughts and/or ideas are welcome...

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#2362557 - 12/16/14 11:52 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Here are mine ...

- Be able to play in Stereo and Monaural

- One good Grand Piano sound. Like the Kawai's Steinway's Bosendorfer's Yamaha's I play in a store. Make a Sample that is great. Then, do not filter nor distort that wonderful sample. Be able to set the electronic unit beside an acoustic and ... ... ...

- Line In, Line Out, Midi Out both front and back. When playing a piano from software, it would be nice to have all the cables in back.

- If the left cheekblock has the buttons and lights, provide a nice wood cover for it that would blend in with the styling and finish of the piano.

- For a USB Recorder/Player provide Wav, Mp3 and Mid.

- Place the Date of Manufacture on the Label.
.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2362573 - Yesterday at 01:12 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3440
Originally Posted By: pv88
With no money or physical space limitations, what kind of digital would you want or prefer, and why?

If there were no money or physical space limitations, I have a hard time coming up with a reason to buy a digital at all. I'd buy a top quality grand piano.

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#2362575 - Yesterday at 01:23 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
T E Bekken Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/14
Posts: 29
Loc: Trondheim; Norway
I'd like a digital stage piano with action like a Roland RD-800, with ONE GREAT ACOUSTIC PIANO SOUND ONLY, and no other sounds, effects or bling whatsoever.
_________________________
Dr Bekken
Jazz Blues Ragtime Stride Free Improvisation
http://youtube.com/drbekken
http://soundcloud.com/dr-bekken

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#2362589 - Yesterday at 02:49 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
leafhound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 41
Loc: Everywhere
For a start it would'nt be sample based and the limitations that brings.



Edited by leafhound (Yesterday at 02:49 AM)
_________________________
“To a mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.” ~ Chang Tzu

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#2362600 - Yesterday at 03:49 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
mabraman Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 364
Loc: Valencia, Spain
I picture a (wooden keybed) controller attached to a media port, some kind of multi-purpose panel which included cpu, speakers, screen, hidden wires, stand, and whatever you might need. You could customize each component and software application to fit your needs or budget, same as we already do with pc's.
According to actual component prices, total bill should be lower than current "top" digitals, with better features.
It could be done tomorrow, it's just someone setting it up for us.
Yep, I'm lazy.
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2362636 - Yesterday at 06:49 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
lophiomys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 138
Loc: Austria, EU
A good physically modeled piano sound with FPGA programming.
Similar to what Carsten Meyers achieved with his HX3 - B3-Organ module (formerly called HOAX), done in his spare time only!!!

Deriving from that, an upgrade to the Kawai MP7 including:

+ physical modeled piano on FPGA
+ the Grand Feel action of the MP11
+ integrated HX3 organ module, and Neo Ventilator II
+ a minimum of 12 auto-moving faders (there is enough space for that on the left of the MP7)
+ top quality components, e.g. non-jumpy infinite turning knobs, no transformer hum

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#2362655 - Yesterday at 08:13 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
evamar Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: Spanish living in UK
For me absolute maximum for a digital piano... around the £3K mark. More only if you are constantly moving, as otherwise I would definitely go for an acoustic with silent. (Yes, I have to move quite frequently...)

So if money and space were not an issue... a grand piano, for sure! If I can afford that I can afford the moving and maintenance of a grand. But anyway in my case the problem is the pianist, not the piano! grin

At that level I would certainly worry more about which silent system is better, as they all still look quite basic.
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



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#2362667 - Yesterday at 08:49 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3868
Loc: Northern England.
I`d just like a somewhat better action on mine. And maybe another piano sample like my old CLP820 had. But Pianoteq more than makes up for that. Easily pleased aren`t I? smile
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2362677 - Yesterday at 09:08 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3440
Yeah, to get "the best" today, pick your favorite action, and dedicate a high-end computer to it for the software of your choice.

I think for most people, buying a DP *at all* is a matter of portability/size and/or budget. So once you eliminate those parameters, there's almost no reason to buy one, except for late-night or neighbor-proof playing. Or maybe recording, since the DPs have advantages there like MIDI recording (with the ability to therefore fix mistakes, or try hearing a part with a different sound), or get a closer to professional result than you might be able to get from an acoustic unless you also have the right room and high end microphones. (But even then, if budget isn't an issue, there are ways to add MIDI to grand pianos, and you can buy expensive mics and acoustically treat a room...!)

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#2362694 - Yesterday at 09:39 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
Ben Boule Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 60
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
If you're going to play futurist how about a device which creates a bubble which traps sound.. so you can play an acoustic during the times and places you'd normally have to play a digital on headphones.

Heck even if I was using a digital I'd want such a device to use instead of headphones!

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#2362703 - Yesterday at 10:04 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1860
Loc: Portugal
Perhaps they already have them - certainly a couple of years ago DPs did not, except an exclusive few (Roland-V, perhaps) - but digital outputs would be nice, and would cost the makers nothing more than the price of a jack (or whatever) socket and a couple of wires and blobs of solder.

Digital outputs on digital pianos! .... doesn't seem like much to ask, but they're taking a long time (30+ years) to actually put them on.

(the obvious means would be USB, I suppose - this is used for midi, wholesale data dumps and other things, but as far as I know, still not for audio streaming - maybe new DPs have it)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2362708 - Yesterday at 10:17 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
Frédéric L Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 86
Loc: France
There are some sythesizers with an audio on USB output (Roland FA08, Yamaha MOXF8...). I don't think it would cost a lot to add it on a digital piano.

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#2362709 - Yesterday at 10:17 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
Ben Boule Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 60
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Toddy you'd be talking about an Optical digital output (S/PDIF). I agree that would be nice for home users. I think it is rare because the wires and jacks are too flimsy for gigging musicians. It'd certainly be nice for the rest of us though and those are cheap.. they were present on $100 CD players almost 20 years ago.

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#2362716 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
lophiomys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 138
Loc: Austria, EU
Digital outputs on a DP would be great.
We would also need some active monitor speakers with integrated DSP and with matching digital input.

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#2362717 - Yesterday at 10:33 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1860
Loc: Portugal
Yes Ben, the old standard was the S/PDIF - haven't seen them round for 20 or so years, except on old equipment. They have the advantage of being isolated - like MIDI. But properly implemented (re earthing etc) USB3 would probably be the way to go nowadays.

Frédéric says it's available on some not-very-expensive synthesizers, so it's a common procedure.

It is not a big practical concern to me, or most people probably, because you can simply convert to digital in the computer's sound card or in an external interface. This works ok, and inexpensive interfaces give you some extra control and other (microphone and guitar) inputs, too.

My gripe is that there is an entirely unnecessary conversion from digital to analogue, only to be converted back at the other end from analogue into digital again.

DPs are digital. Computers are digital, so why on earth bother with converting everything into vulnerable & degradable analogue signals just to get from one device to the other? Seems a bit mad.


Edited by toddy (Yesterday at 10:36 AM)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2362730 - Yesterday at 10:48 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
- action improvement would be nice...some attempt to simulate an escapement without it being too elaborate or costly. I'm becoming more aware of the up-weight issue and how it can fatigue old gits like me.

Sound wise, I don't expect anything generous from the big 3 (4?,5?) by way of more extravagant sampling and I'm not fussed anyway because we have a wide and ever-expanding range of add-on libraries, many are already very good.

Action and means of monitoring are still the weakest links, to my mind.

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#2362738 - Yesterday at 11:11 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
Ben Boule Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 60
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Anything involving USB is going to automatically be an order of magnitude more complicated unfortunately...

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#2362743 - Yesterday at 11:21 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
bnolsen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 179
Loc: Colorado
With no money or space limitations I'd buy a nice acoustic grand piano.

The reason why I look at digital pianos is because I must compromise.

I think it would be great if something like the kawai ca95 next generation would have a far more powerful onboard computer and allow for software hacks and mods by the community, even allowing 3rd parties to write/port their own VSTs to be installed directly on the piano itself.

Wild and crazy wish: Replace the control button area of a piano with a standardized slot allowing compliant 3rd party tablets to be "docked" into the piano to provide both synthesis and controls. A next generation midi module idea that's more integrated into the piano itself.


Edited by bnolsen (Yesterday at 11:26 AM)

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#2362744 - Yesterday at 11:22 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: Ben Boule]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3440
Originally Posted By: Ben Boule
Anything involving USB is going to automatically be an order of magnitude more complicated unfortunately...

I prefer things that don't depend on USB. Eventually, it will go the way of RS232 serial ports and SCSI. A lot of old keyboards are still functional today, but their interfaces--except for the 5-pin DIN MIDI port--are essentially useless.

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#2362748 - Yesterday at 11:36 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: Ben Boule]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1860
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: Ben Boule
Anything involving USB is going to automatically be an order of magnitude more complicated unfortunately...


Well, that's exactly what I'd have thought - it's a complicated system, clogged up with all kinds of other signals and messages, with awkward protocols, I imagine. But this is the route that is taken for most A/D interfaces these days. Even professional standard ones like RME Fireface 802 (as well as firewire).

IT is true that really serious people seem to use MADI, which is a big step up from USB or firewire. But even so, you can get high quality consistent signal tranfer via USB - despite the fact it's an over complicated general purpose system.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2362754 - Yesterday at 11:45 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
USB3 seems to work really well and it's fast. Am I missing something?

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#2362756 - Yesterday at 11:50 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: anotherscott]
Frédéric L Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 86
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Ben Boule
Anything involving USB is going to automatically be an order of magnitude more complicated unfortunately...

I prefer things that don't depend on USB. Eventually, it will go the way of RS232 serial ports and SCSI. A lot of old keyboards are still functional today, but their interfaces--except for the 5-pin DIN MIDI port--are essentially useless.

Using SCSI or a serial link for digital audio exchange is not covered by a standard, this would imply a specific (propriatary) driver which might not be ported if the evolution of operating system does require it. I think that audio on USB is normalised and suppose an implementation with a generic driver could be done.

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#2362759 - Yesterday at 11:52 AM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
evamar Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 551
Loc: Spanish living in UK
ah, just in case I don't win the Christmas lottery and cannot get the mansion and grand... I forgot to say that something I would like is for the CA95 to have a lid to protect the back speaker, hinged or full, Casio's design is fantastic for this. I also don't particularly like the different level, like a step, so a lid would be great. And a bigger music rest, it would be nice to play loose sheets without having to look for something to hold them as the music rest is too low and they bend.

But these are only cabinet design improvements of my current DP, not actual features.
_________________________
Serious since Dec 2013. March 2014, Kawai CA95!

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted



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#2362769 - Yesterday at 12:38 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: dire tonic]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1860
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
USB3 seems to work really well and it's fast. Am I missing something?


Perhaps you're missing MADI. This is the standard agreed by the Audio Engineering Society for digital audio transmission. The difference, apart from being a simpler, single use system, is that it uses co-axial cable or fibre optic, and these work over long distances without any losses. It's designed for multiple channels (56 or more). So not necessary for most of us. But, as Ben Boule says above, S/PDIF would be higher quality, simpler and was (still is?) frequently used, even on standard, lower cost equipment.

Also, audiophiles complain darkly about USB being a power supply, and that this can affect the signal. (I've no reason to agree with this....or disagree, for that matter).
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2362771 - Yesterday at 12:44 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: Frédéric L]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3440
Originally Posted By: Frédéric L
I think that audio on USB is normalised and suppose an implementation with a generic driver could be done.

This article may interest you:
http://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4376143/Fundamentals-of-USB-Audio

But my point is that 10-15-20 years from now, it may be as hard to find a computer with USB as it is today to find a computer with serial and/or SCSI ports. Then what do you do? I have keyboards from the 80s that work fine today... but don't interface with current computers. I have an even older acoustic piano that also continues to work perfectly. ;-) If I was going to buy a no-expense-spared digital instrument, I'd like to feel that there's no such built-in obsolescence as I think is intrinsic to anything that depends on 2014 computer hardware.

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#2362776 - Yesterday at 12:52 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 540
I'm about done with all the Steinway Ds, Bodendorfer Imperials and whatever other Grande Konzert monsters would be SO out of place in a "mere HOUSE".
I can't play them at what would be their real life volume here anyway and they don't sound anything like the real thing with the amp turned down.

So how about some smaller and more "intimate" pianos that weren't built to dominate 4,000 seat halls ?
Living room size pianos ? OK large living room.

I don't know, Steinway O, or M ?
M&H 6 ft or 6 1/2 ft ?

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#2362777 - Yesterday at 12:54 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Wants:
- Uploadable sample set.
- Fully sampled, no looping, no stretching, 8+ layers.
- Sampled / modeled sympathetic resonance.
- 76 keys (lop off top octave).
- Built into hard case, just remove top and play.
- Built-in stand.
- Built-in music rest.
- Small but high quality (rare earth) open baffle speakers.
- Record & play MIDI files on USB drive.
- Render MIDI to WAV on USB.
- As small and lightweight as possible.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2362780 - Yesterday at 01:00 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: pv88]
Frédéric L Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 86
Loc: France
I do understand the problem with USB, but I think using SCSI or a serial link (with a specific driver) would be worse. I do have a CLP150 and its "file utility" intended to exchange file between the PC and the piano.... The software is only usable on Windows95/98.... And there is no alternative for WindowsXP (or more recent). Then the sustainability should also involve the software (driver, utility...)

Note : We can find some SCSI on USB adaptor (http://www.ldlc.com/fiche/PB00015828.html)

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#2362783 - Yesterday at 01:05 PM Re: Digital piano - future specs - what is your request? [Re: toddy]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: toddy
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
USB3 seems to work really well and it's fast. Am I missing something?


Perhaps you're missing MADI. This is the standard agreed by the Audio Engineering Society for digital audio transmission. The difference, apart from being a simpler, single use system, is that it uses co-axial cable or fibre optic, and these work over long distances without any losses. It's designed for multiple channels (56 or more). So not necessary for most of us. But, as Ben Boule says above, S/PDIF would be higher quality, simpler and was (still is?) frequently used, even on standard, lower cost equipment.

Also, audiophiles complain darkly about USB being a power supply, and that this can affect the signal. (I've no reason to agree with this....or disagree, for that matter).


Madi, schmadi...who needs it? USB3 works fine and the Audio Engineering Society can bleat all it wants about an 'ideal' it'll never get.

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