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30-50 cent pitch raise, with Tunelab performing flawlessly once again.
Very tinny bass end, and too many strings had what I call "wandering-pitch-syndrome," which is easy to see with Tunelab. Is this common problem with spinets?
One hammer was missing the third string. So I discovered it's not easy to turn a hammer butt flange screw on a some spinets, without removing the action, as this one had a wooden rail right across it. I just managed to move it enough to hit the third string, but it would have been better to have also hit it with my heat gun, which I conveniently thought I would not need today! DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT YOUR HEAT GUN!
At any rate, I still did a good second pass fine tune, and the customers loved it.
Not a great piano, but since they are total piano beginners, it's more than enough piano for them. And actually, it was in excellent shape, because it wasn't played very much over the years.
These Cable Nelsons were a great design. I have tuned them as old as 1939. I tuned two recently which were 120 to 160 cents low. Got them up in about an hour, but my blood pressure went up. On the old ones, I find them with remarkeably good bridges. The older they are, the better, quite often. If not worn out or corroded, they have a lovely bell like tone in the treble. With good bass strings, one can feel the floor buzz. Workmanship early on was wonderful. I live 40 minutes from where they were made in South haven , Mi. Nothing left there now to indicate it was a great piano factory for almost 100 years. Yamaha last owner.
David Postma, Associate Member, PTG Lansing, Michigan
These Cable Nelsons were a great design. I have tuned them as old as 1939. I tuned two recently which were 120 to 160 cents low. Got them up in about an hour, but my blood pressure went up. On the old ones, I find them with remarkeably good bridges. The older they are, the better, quite often. If not worn out or corroded, they have a lovely bell like tone in the treble. With good bass strings, one can feel the floor buzz. Workmanship early on was wonderful. I live 40 minutes from where they were made in South haven , Mi. Nothing left there now to indicate it was a great piano factory for almost 100 years. Yamaha last owner.
Well, I hate to admit this, but I'm starting to understand why people don't consider spinets "real" instruments.
This particular one I just tuned seem to have even less bass than the Kimball I had recently. Just a near complete absence of low end! It's good enough for kids or beginners, which is what the customers were, but with any serious piano player such as myself, you can't get any "rumble" out of it....no emotional depth, so to speak.
The Richmond studio that I have now has about the least bass I can happily practice and live with.
Still, people have to learn on something, and have to start somewhere, so I'll tune and repair whatever people have.....just don't ask me to take the action out of a spinet!
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
You are wise to put the suit on....
Hitting only 2 of the 3 strings is like depressing an una corda pedal, and makes a big change in tone.
And in this case, it was better to have this one note match all the others, which were traveling properly.
So in this case I did the right thing, although technically, if a grooved hammer is realigned without being reshaped, the old grooves will try to mate with the strings, putting stain on the hammer, shank, and butt. However, as I mentioned before, this piano was never played very much, so the string grooves were not very deep.
I also didn't have the time to remove the action to reshape the hammers!
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
You are wise to put the suit on....
Hitting only 2 of the 3 strings is like depressing an una corda pedal, and makes a big change in tone.
And in this case, it was better to have this one note match all the others, which were traveling properly.
So in this case I did the right thing, although technically, if a grooved hammer is realigned without being reshaped, the old grooves will try to mate with the strings, putting stain on the hammer, shank, and butt. However, as I mentioned before, this piano was never played very much, so the string grooves were not very deep.
I also didn't have the time to remove the action to reshape the hammers!
Jeff is right. If that hammer sounded different than the others, it was for some other reason. If the una corda pedal moves the hammers so far that the two strings played are lined up with the grooves one string over, there will not be any noticeable tone difference. It's strings hitting new felt that make the difference. Exactly what you did by moving the hammer over so it hit all three strings.
This is how things work with hammers and string alignment, all other things created equal. If you could see any groove at all, it's enough to cause a huge difference in tone.
Also, it is possible with a curved hammer file made from aluminum flat bar, carpet tape, and sand paper, to file moderate grooves with the action in the piano.
Jeff is right. If that hammer sounded different than the others, it was for some other reason. If the una corda pedal moves the hammers so far that the two strings played are lined up with the grooves one string over, there will not be any noticeable tone difference. It's strings hitting new felt that make the difference. Exactly what you did by moving the hammer over so it hit all three strings.
This is how things work with hammers and string alignment, all other things created equal. If you could see any groove at all, it's enough to cause a huge difference in tone.
Also, it is possible with a curved hammer file made from aluminum flat bar, carpet tape, and sand paper, to file moderate grooves with the action in the piano.
Well, in this case it seemed like the note sounded better matched after I adjusted it, but I will keep your advice in mind the next time this comes up, thanks Mark.
And I was going to ask if you folks file grooves with the action in the piano, and the answer is yes.....I'll have to make a new tool!
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
You are wise to put the suit on....
Hitting only 2 of the 3 strings is like depressing an una corda pedal, and makes a big change in tone.
And in this case, it was better to have this one note match all the others, which were traveling properly.
So in this case I did the right thing, although technically, if a grooved hammer is realigned without being reshaped, the old grooves will try to mate with the strings, putting stain on the hammer, shank, and butt. However, as I mentioned before, this piano was never played very much, so the string grooves were not very deep.
I also didn't have the time to remove the action to reshape the hammers!
Jeff is right. If that hammer sounded different than the others, it was for some other reason. If the una corda pedal moves the hammers so far that the two strings played are lined up with the grooves one string over, there will not be any noticeable tone difference. It's strings hitting new felt that make the difference. Exactly what you did by moving the hammer over so it hit all three strings.
This is how things work with hammers and string alignment, all other things created equal. If you could see any groove at all, it's enough to cause a huge difference in tone.
Also, it is possible with a curved hammer file made from aluminum flat bar, carpet tape, and sand paper, to file moderate grooves with the action in the piano.
Point of order... Spinets do not shift the action for the Una chorda... At least none I've seen.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
You are wise to put the suit on....
Hitting only 2 of the 3 strings is like depressing an una corda pedal, and makes a big change in tone.
And in this case, it was better to have this one note match all the others, which were traveling properly.
So in this case I did the right thing, although technically, if a grooved hammer is realigned without being reshaped, the old grooves will try to mate with the strings, putting stain on the hammer, shank, and butt. However, as I mentioned before, this piano was never played very much, so the string grooves were not very deep.
I also didn't have the time to remove the action to reshape the hammers!
Jeff is right. If that hammer sounded different than the others, it was for some other reason. If the una corda pedal moves the hammers so far that the two strings played are lined up with the grooves one string over, there will not be any noticeable tone difference. It's strings hitting new felt that make the difference. Exactly what you did by moving the hammer over so it hit all three strings.
This is how things work with hammers and string alignment, all other things created equal. If you could see any groove at all, it's enough to cause a huge difference in tone.
Also, it is possible with a curved hammer file made from aluminum flat bar, carpet tape, and sand paper, to file moderate grooves with the action in the piano.
Point of order... Spinets do not shift the action for the Una chorda... At least none I've seen.
Again, A plea for accurate reading.
"is like pressing an una corda" Is what was said. "like" pressing an una corda does not mean there is an una corda.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
I shape hammers in the piano regularly. The worst part of it is that does put a bit of strain on my back. Many times these are "quick and dirty" reshaping jobs: just minimizing the groves with some 60 grit paper and then rounding out the corners with some 80 and then sometimes taking it further with finer grits as time allows. The nice thing about uprights is it's very easy to fit hammers to strings.
Here's a recording I made a couple weeks ago of a Kimball "Artist Spinet". This is one of those that transitions from trichords to plain wire bichords, and then to wrapped bichords all in the temperament area! Needless to say this really changes the beat speed of intervals - but I find them an interesting puzzle to figure out: its all about compromise!
The recording is an example of what I usually play at the end of a tuning. Its just a series of arpeggios with a little melodic playing in the top octave. I move chromatically up from C and end on B. Its not exactly music, but clients like to hear it, and its good to play something soothing after all the tedious banging!
I like to occasionally record spinets to prove that they can be "real" musical instruments (contrary to what some technicians say!).
Ryan Sowers, Pianova Piano Service Olympia, WA www.pianova.net
It is nice to have the hammers hit all the strings, but when there are even moderate string marks on the hammer it is often best to leave things as they are. If you reposition the hammer, the note will stick out because of the difference in tone. Shaping the hammer can make it even worse! You can pluck the third string and tune it that way.
(Flame suit on...)
You are wise to put the suit on....
Hitting only 2 of the 3 strings is like depressing an una corda pedal, and makes a big change in tone.
And in this case, it was better to have this one note match all the others, which were traveling properly.
So in this case I did the right thing, although technically, if a grooved hammer is realigned without being reshaped, the old grooves will try to mate with the strings, putting stain on the hammer, shank, and butt. However, as I mentioned before, this piano was never played very much, so the string grooves were not very deep.
I also didn't have the time to remove the action to reshape the hammers!
Jeff is right. If that hammer sounded different than the others, it was for some other reason. If the una corda pedal moves the hammers so far that the two strings played are lined up with the grooves one string over, there will not be any noticeable tone difference. It's strings hitting new felt that make the difference. Exactly what you did by moving the hammer over so it hit all three strings.
This is how things work with hammers and string alignment, all other things created equal. If you could see any groove at all, it's enough to cause a huge difference in tone.
Also, it is possible with a curved hammer file made from aluminum flat bar, carpet tape, and sand paper, to file moderate grooves with the action in the piano.
Point of order... Spinets do not shift the action for the Una chorda... At least none I've seen.
Again, A plea for accurate reading.
"is like pressing an una corda" Is what was said. "like" pressing an una corda does not mean there is an una corda.
Rxd you may want to read a bit more carefully yourself. Mark did not once use the word "like" a single time in his post. This is why I include the string of responses in my response, so that nit pickers such as yourself responding to the nit pickees have to be all the more careful nit picking.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
[...] Mark did not once use the word "like" a single time in his post. [...]
No, but Paul did. (You may use the "blush" emoticon, now.)
I'm with Jeff on the two-string hammer hitter. Unless you are going to spend time aligning and shaping all of the hammers, it is not necessarily a bad thing to leave it alone. Things can suffer noticeably in "the musical context," otherwise. It's a judgement call, of course.
