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So here we are almost in 2015. Lots of digital pianos out there.

Let's start by forgetting all of the ones under $500.

I am looking for a digital piano to practice on when the family is sleeping. My 6'3" Pramberger JP-185 is a little loud

Don't care what it looks like. I want the best sound and touch for the money and don't need built-in speakers as I will always be using headphones.

I tried most of the Yamis and while the P255 has exceptional sound, the touch is well calibrated but still too light compared to most acoustic pianos. I am used to bashing on my Pramberger keys and having sore arms after playing for an hour or two. I have played a lot of other acoustic pianos with even heavier actions.

I can't believe that even in 2015, digital piano actions are still way too light for any serious preparation for acoustic piano play.

Any suggestions come to mind?

Thanks!

What's the high end of your budget?

Yamaha's N series (N1 - N3) have the closest thing to a real grand piano action because is is comprised of a real piano action.

Kawai has a few models (CA95 and MP11) with their 'Grand Feel' action which emulates closely (a matter of opinion of course) a grand piano action.

When faced with the similar choice I went with the Kawai VPC1 (Virtual Piano Controller) but you need to add piano software for the sound engine. I personally prefer Pianoteq for its responsiveness but again this comes down to personal opinion.

Roland also has some models with their own action designs and the V-piano which has a model sound engine instead of sampled. I have not played on any of these so can't provide an opinion one way or another.

I don't know where you are in the world, but please seek out an RD-800 to try.

Turn it on and scroll to Patch #34 "Studio Grand" and just play.

Let us know how you like it.

Jay

OTOH, many digital actions feel heavier than my Yamaha grand, or one of my students' Bluthner. Seems to me like maybe you're just used to a heavier than average grand...?

I would echo Jay's recommendation about the RD-800. I don't own one, but I have played it and its action feels somewhat heavier than my V-Grand, so that may be to your liking.

Tony

If you like a weightier feel, the Kawai Grand Feel pianos (MP11, or CA65/95) are what you want to go with. The VPC1 is also a contender, but you have to be OK with using software pianos, which WILL give you a much better sound than most on-board sounds. However, there is the hassle of hooking it up to a computer/laptop for the sounds. But really, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but a great way to get something quite comparable to your acoustic.

your candidates are the kawai mp11 and roland rd800.

it may be hard if not impossible to find these boards to play. i've listed what i think are the equivalent cabinet models which should be at a local dealer:

kawai: ca65, ca85 and some of the cs series have the gf action.

roland: hp506 and hp508 (i think)

IMHO the kawai GF is most realistic. you may like the roland action, its worth trying.

you can try the very top end clavinova but IMHO yamaha seriously needs to up their game still for realistic actions.

Wow you guys are great! Thanks a lot for all of the suggestions.

A lot of companies market "grand feel" or "feels like a grand" actions but quite simply, it is just marketing.

My fear is that if you don't have the actual action of an acoustic piano with the hammers hitting electrical sensors instead of strings (why has no company done this yet?) then you will never get the "feel" of an acoustic piano from an electronic piano.

It amazes me that companies can still sell basic electronic pianos at $1500-$2000 with actions that still feel more like a keyboard than a piano.

I talked to my wife about it and she said "just play the grand even if we are sleeping". LOL That's all great as long as I am playing for fun but if I start repeating the same piece hundreds of times over and over, I think she will change her mind pretty fast!

Thanks again. Anyone else that wants to contribute their 2 cents, by all means please don't hesitate.

Yamaha does make "hybrid" pianos which are digital pianos with an action designed from acoustic pianos (NU1, N1, N2, N3), but they are more expensive than usual digital pianos.

This had been done long ago, those pianos are called "electric pianos" and they got out of fashion, because they sound nothing like an AP and must be tuned and regulated just like an AP.

Due to the latter even most people interested in EP sounds buy a DP emulating an EP.


DP buyers usually look for an upright piano replacement. Uprights don't feel and play like a grands either. And most people prefer not having sore arms after just one or two hours of practice.

Hi integris,

I know exactly how you feel as I have done exactly this research as you some months ago. I own a Steinway Grand and also use digital pianos mainly due to their variety of sounds (also vintage E-pianos) and MIDI capabilities. Nevertheless I wanted something with the best action which would be as close as possible to my acoustic.

I would recommend the Kawai MP11 on your shortlist. If you prefer a heavy action, this is the one to go. The breakoff-weight is heavier than on my Steinway, the let-off simulation feels a bit different but touch and feel of the action resembles pretty closely what you would expect from a grand piano.

Yet I have to confess that my instrument required some post-buy service (I mentioned that somewhere else on this forum) but nevertheless, I love this great device and really enjoy playing it.

Concerning Roland, I was quite lucky to check some of their slabs recently. I really liked the action of the RD-700NX, it was slightly lighter than the MP11 but felt a bit more "fluid". But when I played it I was not able to directly compare it to the Kawai so please take this statement with a grain of salt.

Compared to the RD-800 the action of the 700NX felt better and more realistic. I can not give a technical justification for that, I just had the intention that the 700NX was closer to an acoustic grand while the 800 felt more like a very good electronic piano. You would have to try this on your own.

If you like something *REALLY* heavy, there would be the Kawai VPC-1. No internal sounds, just a controller. I only played it once but for my taste it really was a bit too heavy. I needed to "work" those keys, so it would resemble the ultimate heavyweight champion on my list.
If the MP11 and the Rolands are still to light for you, give the VPC-1 a try. You might easily plug a laptop with some decent VST sampler into it so soundwise not a big issue. But you might like the action from what I have read in your posts.

In this order.

1. Roland - V-Piano (amazing dynamics and expression)
2. Kawai VPC1 - galaxy II (good sound)
3. Yamaha - N3

In my opinion:

1. Best action & all-in-one package, but most expensive: Yamaha N3
2. Almost best action, most realistic sound: Kawai VPC1 + software piano (Ivory, VI Labs, Galaxy, Pianoteq)
3. Okay action, best dynamics and expression, but unrealistic sound: Roland V-Piano

Of course, there are a number of alternative options not on this list.

Cheers,
James
x

Have you looked into a Silent Piano option on your current acoustic piano? I know nothing of these personally and have heard varying results. Some say it doesn't change the feel at all, others say it does. Just throwing that out there as an option to research. Perhaps you can look in on the Piano Tech Forum on this site to see what the technicians have to say about them.

If you are looking for an acoustic piano replacement and you play classical music, and value the kind of (almost) unlimited tonal and dynamic range that acoustics provide, only the V-Piano & Grand will suffice. Nothing else comes remotely close, especially if you are pushing towards the extremes of expression.

If you just want a keyboard to bang on at night, and want a heavy action, any of the alternatives others have suggested will do.

Classical concert pianists use the AvantGrands for learning new pieces (and the drilling of notes 'into the fingers') and technical stuff that requires a lot of repetitive work, to spare the wear and tear on their acoustics' actions. They don't use them for developing tonal nuances and interpretation - their limited range of expression and dynamics would drive any classical pianist mad. (Of course, if you don't require to play so expressively, all bets are off......)

As for software pianos, my experience is limited to the free Pianoteq samples. They don't 'feel' in the least realistic, and sound totally disconnected to my playing, as if there is an intermediary robot (similar to the fly-by-wire system in modern aircraft) between my fingers and the sound that comes out.

To me, and disregarding sound issues, this very much sounds like a latency problem, possible coupled to a key velocity curve adaptation problem. And it sounds familiar. I have never managed (so far, and short of buying a dedicated computer) to couple my VPC1 to a software sound with a latency that was short enough for nuanced playing with good tactile feedback and for avoiding a 'disconnected' feel. (Which is why my VPC is coupled to another instrument rather than a software.)

Thus, if as a classical pianist you go the software route, expect to (1) buy a powerful and suitable computer that really is up to the task, and (2) to fiddle around with the setup and its settings for quite some time.

In my experience (take Ravenscroft from VI Labs for example), I get latency if I run it as a standalone program... but if I use it as a VST inside of my DAW then the latency problem disappears!

That was a quirk peculiar to the UVI workstation where, as a standalone, it suffered high latency whereas within a host it behaved itself (only UVI would know why!). My guess is that UVI's developers have sorted this out by now but I haven't checked the latest revision.

The parallel here with sample players living inside hosts would be the Kontakt player (UVI's counterpart) which behaves impeccably as a standalone.

@maurus, you say you had latency problems when running software within a computer. Can you remember what the latency was set to?

<edit: pronoun deficiency>

Physics and engineering. A mechanical system can be modelled by system of levers, pullies, weights, friction, etc. Once a proper model has been established and reduced it can be recreated to various levels. It all depends on the accuracy of the model and how well its recreated. That's where the engineering kicks in.

One thing going for the modelling is the variety of piano actions (between and within brands) out there. You just need to recreate a system that falls into the family of grand pianos and not necessarily exactly copy just one.

The yamaha clavinova clp990 was an interesting beast. If yamaha had pursued it instead of killing it and if competitors would have been more sophisticated at the time digital piano actions might be way ahead of where they are today.

Only from beginner player here, but I would say with a decent PC nowadays latency can be made to very acceptable levels on a dedicated PC, and I would imagine even for the most seasoned players. There also dedicated pro level PCI soundcards that will shorten latency even more but the cost of those can be as much as a PC itself, like the the Pro audio ones.

I any case, I've always build my own PC systems. What I can say is that in my case use a fairly standards USB 2 audio interface with a decent driver, but the CPU is very quick and heavily overclocked from the stock 3.5 MHz up to 4.5 MHz. I can actually compare the native piano sound coming out of the digital cabinet and the software piano coming out of the speakers and they seem to be simultaneous to me ... as far as I can tell. I can max everything out in Ivory i.e. no of voices, put my arms on the keys with the damper pedal down and press more keys I would ever do playing, and as rapid as I can and the system doesn't bat an eyelid, not a crackle or pop.

The processing latency in my case can be brought down to about < 1 msec wit Ivory 2, be it in Cubase or with the standalone cantabile, pianoteq does great too.

I couldn't tell you what the actual complete roundtrip latency is, but it will of course be more than 1 msec quite a bit. That said, the speed of sound is 340 m/sec, so even for sound to travel 1 meter, and with the bouncing around that already amounts to of the order of milliseconds even with acoustic setups. So technology is getting there, thanks to the speed of light

Probably my dream setup in future would be something like the VPC1 with software for home at some point in the future ( If I don't find it too heavy action when I come to upgrade, anyway that will be years ahead.)

Just beginning to get that feeling that the samples build into the digital consoles and sound engine are secondary to me more and more, nice to have, but no match for the software.

For < 2000 pounds, a killer PC can be bought, + a VPC1. Even with that adding it all up it is not that much in the scheme of digitals. Even a Yamaha CLP 585 which presumably would be nothing special in terms of action and sound for a good pianist, and that is 3K !

This sounds either uneducated or arrogant. Not sure about the action on your grand, by my upright has an action that is a lot less enjoyable or precise than most actions that I have encountered in digital pianos >1000$.

@dire tonic and others: I've posted about my settings in other threads and don't want to repeat that here. In my experience a latency of 3ms or so, and anything above, is disconnecting the immediacy between the tactile feel of the keys and the perceived shaping of the sound. With my laptop (a MacBook Pro but definitely not the best there is) I could (so far) not bring it below that value without creating digital sound artefacts, dropouts etc. YMMV.

To play my little red one with the VPC, on the other hand, is a very satisfying experience (as I've said here before).

It's a two or three digit number - quicker to repeat it than type "I've posted about my settings in other threads and don't want to repeat that here."

...but putting that to one side...


I'm guessing your VPC1 is controlling your little red one via MIDI? So if you play a two-handed chord, say eight notes, you're apparently satisfied with a timing spread within that chord of anything up to 8 millisecs - quite bit more than that if you happen to be using partial pedalling through the playing of the chord. And that doesn't even take into account the response time of the Nord.

How do you reconcile that with a claimed intolerance of 3 millisecs?

I have the totally opposite experience with Pianteq. I wonder as others have pointed out that you may have experienced latency issues.

- yes, and I'd bet most who have experience of both would agree with that.

I guessed it may be that.

But I use a MacBook Pro (bought new in 2013). If that's not 'powerful' enough to cope with software piano without obvious latency, what is?

If the MacBook Pro has user-adjustable settings for latency and you don't know how to set them, the results could quite easily be unacceptable.

Pianoteq is the one piano on which it was easiest to minimize the latency. (Too bad I don't like the sound!)

To get any other libraries to work I had to bump up to an external sound card. (ASIO4All helped reduce latency on my old laptop, but not enough.)

Bennevis, I really wonder whether the tolerance of different players concerning latency is indeed quite different. Some of us want to have the feeling of being able to shape the tone of polyphonic voices with the fingertips, others bang away chords.

dire tonic, I've had this discussion before. The midi delay of complex chords is equally unacceptable to me, and I can hear and discern it. But then I rarely play music consisting of homophonic, unbroken 8-note chords. I should add that I just have to go to another room to sit down at a grand for comparisons, and that of course I did a lot of A/B comparisons between VPC/Nord and VPC/MacBook Pro, with a number of different settings. I'm not saying no one can manage to get a pianistically satisfying setup this way but I am relating my experience that it is harder than I thought, and I've not succeeded so far. Again, YMMV.

I don't like the Pianoteq sound either, and have no inclination to try it out again.

Not even if someone here volunteered to fly out (by hot jet and helicopter) to my humble little abode and set my Mac up for me to minimize the latency........

Just from trying acoustics out in practice rooms they seem on average heavier to me than digitals. I have a Kawai MP10 with the RM3 action (which is supposed to be one of the heaviest digital actions) and it seems roughly the same weight as some and lighter than others (from my novice perspective). The Steinway O and M grands I tried seemed a bit heavier so did the Yamaha uprights I've used and so too the Avantgrands. The Bluthner grands and maybe some of the Yamaha grands I've tried seemed lighter. Overall the acoustics generally feel heavier to me. The Grand Feel in the MP11/CA65 and 95 always felt very light to me. Too much so if I've just come off of an acoustic.

In your opinion, yes?

- without the competence to set up a software piano you're not really in any position to draw comparisons between the V-piano and its mixed-format rivals yet you always have a lot to say about it.

Reading between the lines I'm beginning to wonder if the V-piano's sound is in any way hyped (apologies for that word, but I've discovered its use extensively when applied to monitors and it seems it might be fitting here too). By stretching the harmonic response to go outside what we would normally expect to hear from a typical acoustic instrument one could very well describe a dynamic range of sound as extreme. But it might also be odd or outlandish - even off-putting for someone who is after the 'real thing'.

I've asked you before to link to one of your recordings but you declined saying only that they were available for anyone to seek out. A cursory search turned up nothing. How about it? Something you feel demonstrates V-piano's extremities. A link?

No, not my opinion.

I've talked to a couple of fairly well-known concert pianists who have the AG, and there's a public blog by another, talking about the way he uses it.

Well I'm not a concert pianist, but I am a conservatory graduate and having to practice for hours on end on a non acoustic would drive me mad. Maybe the pianists you talked to shouldn't have bought Steinway D's if they fear wearing it out? Maybe 2 acoustic grands is a better option for them?

I've never said that I have made any public recordings on my V-Piano (- only what I store in its internal memory, purely for myself).

I don't even know how to post anything on YouTube or on any other public media. But in any case, I have to remain anonymous, so I wouldn't do that anyway. (BTW, I'm not on Facebook or any social media either ).

I did mention that I have some recordings in a website that belongs to an organisation, but they were made on an acoustic piano, and were made by (and for) them as a promotional tool, and I had no say in how the recording was made, nor in what piano I played on (a Yamaha grand, as it happened). And yes, they're easily accessible to anyone........ . But my (real) name is attached to them, so I can't divulge anything here either.

The V-Piano has exactly the same sound engine as the V-Piano Grand (minus two of the latter's 30 piano sounds), and there are plenty of YouTube videos of the Grand played and recorded in concert halls, which show off the V's dynamic and tonal range reasonably well - I've posted the links to them before.

As for my opinion about software pianos, I stated exactly how limited my experience was in my post earlier. People can take from that what they will. BTW, I've never expressed any opinion on them prior to that experience (which was quite recent), other than that I can't be doing with the whole rigmarole of setting up my computer every time I wanted to play.

I don't know what your experience of acoustic grands are, but if you really think the V's sound is artificially stretched beyond "what we would normally expect to hear from a typical acoustic instrument" to a "dynamic range of sound as extreme", maybe you haven't been playing many concert grands.
Like this one, for instance:

http://youtu.be/izIMf9-pQGk

You misunderstand my post.

They use it purely for stuff like repetitive technical drills - repeating an isolated tricky passage ad nauseam etc, just to get them fluent and 'into the fingers'. With the volume turned down. The late, great concert pianist and scholar Charles Rosen advocated reading a book on the music rest while practising such drills...... (he never had a digital, as far as I know).

There's nothing hyped.

The V-piano has such dynamics and expression because it does'nt have the limitations of a sampled sound.

Once you sit down with a sampled digital piano alongside an accoustic and see the limitaions of pp-ffff on the sampled unit all your preconceptions will vanish.

Thanks for posting that, great example. I guess I would say that Roland and the Fazioli *both* have a wider timbral dynamic range than the typical acoustic piano!

Wouldn't it be sensible to expect that an instrument described as a 'virtual piano' is quite capable of exceeding the 'normal' or perceived 'average' bounds of expression for acoustic pianos? In fact, I'd go further and suggest that a modelled - or otherwise synthesized - piano will, by its nature, go way beyond the normal AP limits in various respects (timbre, interaction between strings of resonance, velocity to amplitude curve etc).

The question cannot apply to the DP overall but only to individual patch settings - especially those considered default settings. And, since the V-Piano is infinitely programmable across various parameters, the idea of its being 'stretched' seems irrelevant: it is as 'stretched' as you want it to be.

Guess which is my favorite concert grand (after the hard-to-find Bösie Imperial 290, of course) to play on ?

The V-Piano sound is certainly far more customizable than most DP sounds... but I don't think there is a parameter to adjust the timbral dynamic range. The closest would appear to be "Sound Lift" about which they say:

This changes how the sound is produced when you play the keyboard softly.
You can adjust this to make the sound suitable for solo playing, or to prevent your sound from being buried by the other instruments of your band.
With higher settings, the sound will be relatively loud even when you play lightly, preventing your sound from being lost in the band.

which doesn't really address what we're talking about, since it affects level as well as timbre (and only from one end). Similarly, there are key touch settings, i.e. velocity curves, which you could adjust, but again, they will affect level as well as timbre. It would be nice if there were a way to adjust the timbral differences from ppp to fff without also adjusting level differences, but I don't think that there is. So in that sense, it seems to only emulate acoustic pianos that share that kind of wide timbral variation characteristic, which is wider than many (most?) actual acoustic pianos.

You're right - the V can be easily tweaked to sound very bland and conversely, really OTT. In fact, the default factory settings that it comes with are, to my mind, too bland, and needs tweaking to give it the right oomph.

I felt that most of the V-P Grands played in the concert halls in various YouTube videos could also have done with a little judicious tweaking too. Certainly, the one that was played at the Grand's launch in London in 2011 (which I attended, and also played on afterwards) would have benefitted from tweaking.

I'm talking of course of the several settings that are based on real acoustic pianos, as there are also others that are, er, 'futuristic' .

What Toddy said;

Plus, (just as a fun example) the notion that adding MORE aliquot effect in the pianoteq Bluthner than could exist in a physical Bluthner - - COULD be used for different musical (or novelty) effect.

Being able to (virtually) implement a 10 meter sound board ...another "opportunity" to escape from the limitations of wood, felt, metal, etc.
Not that a 10m virtual soundboard could be calibrated against a physical 10m soundboard, since the latter will not be built, the former is a different instrument with different opportunities.

You have to use a combination of various parameters if you want the timbral change without volume change.

When you use more force, the volume gets louder and the sound becomes more brilliant. Using just the 'sound lift' pushes both up. But you can tweak the 'tone color' and the 'unison tune' as well, each of which also alters the tonal characteristics at various volume levels.

And of course, you can also tweak the actual frequency response curve for each and every note.

There is no voice called "Pianoteq sound" and Pianoteq does not have a sound of its own. It models and provides multiple versions of many real and virtual pianos. Are you saying that you have tried them all?

I am aware that you said that you would not try Pianoteq again but it would have been interesting to read your reason why it was not satisfactory for you?

Ian (Pianoteq Stage and Bluethner Model One user)

I'd say it could still be accurately modeled, though, without there being a true physical representation for reference. The material characteristics are known, and the sonic characteristics can be extrapolated from what does exist in the real world. I agree, the idea of being able to get a sense of what some "impossible" instrument would sound like is intriguing and could have its own musical value.


I'd be looking for the other way around... maintain the volume change, but reduce the amount of timbral variation. I'd make the quietest notes a little brighter than they are (but no louder), and the hardest hit notes a little less bright than they are (but no quieter). What parameters would you adjust to create this effect?


I need to spend more time with it myself. But from the samples I've heard (which weren't the newest version), the various different models still shared some sonic characteristic that seemed identifiably Pianoteq.

Come now, Bennevis, it's fair enough if you wish to remain anonymous - I don't think anyone will begrudge you that since most of here are anonymous too. But let's dispense with the cloak and dagger routine of how your identity must be kept secret. Who are you anyway - Batman?

I think it would be better to admit that you have no interest in being assessed on your playing. You aren't comfortable with us hearing it. That's fine, but acting as though you are Batman or James Bond is a bit rich. Besides, people post videos on Youtube all the time without their real name and without showing their face - so let's not get too melodramatic about this.

Some posters here do have a point - you talk passionately about the magical things the V-piano can do, about your personal modifications to the sounds to make them really come alive. But you only make your point with words - we never get to hear the results of all this talk. It is clear you don't want it to be evaluated, nor your playing. As I said, that's all fine, but you can't expect people to just swallow your V-piano superlatives without question - and saying you don't know how to post Youtube videos is a very lame excuse. You are able to post here, and post links. Posting YT videos takes a very small investment of your time to learn. Millions of total idiots do it every day. It's just an excuse because you don't want to do it.

I just think you should just come out and say you don't want to be judged - rather than all this dramatic stuff that "prevents" you from doing so.

As I said, all I tried was the free Pianoteq sample. (I certainly wouldn't pay for anything of this sort).

What I heard wasn't much to my liking as a piano sound that I could live with. If I recall (my memory isn't too good these days, in my very advanced age.... ), it was treble-orientated and lacked 'body'. I used my Grado SR 325is headphones, which is what I use when playing my V. I also tried my other headphones, AKG K271 Mk II.

Before you ask, no, I didn't tweak it. I've no idea whether the free sample can be tweaked, but there was a time limit on using it, in any case.

- bennevis, as ando says, there's nothing to stop you anonymously posting a sample of your playing the V-piano, even something short just to get across some of the characteristics of the V-piano you talk about. Of course, to hear you play would be the icing on the cake.

To date, all you've really offered is "most pianos only go to 10; the V-piano goes to 11".

If you need to be shepherded through the posting/recording process, whatever, you won't be short of volunteers!

You're right, I'm only pretending to be a pianist, and I'm really an automaton. Like Hal .

Heck, I don't even know what C major is, let alone a tone row.

OK for you?

Alternatively (here's my other program speaking) - I have no interest in posting recordings in any public forum (and no interest in learning to do computer stuff I'm not interested in), and I have reasons for keeping my anonymity, and actually, there are recordings of me playing, under my real name, somewhere in the ether......

BTW, have you noticed that when I post links to YouTube recordings, I laboriously copy down the 'share' http letters & numbers? That's because I don't know how to put/transfer the link on directly to here.

But why get so hot under the collar about my liking for the V?

I'm just another ignorant poster who claims to be able to tinkle the ivories (or plastics, as the case may be), and who knows what he wants and what he likes. If I want to promote myself as a pianist, I wouldn't choose to do so here, in the digital forum. But I don't make my living from playing the piano (I've never taken a penny from it, not even for 'expenses'), including when I accompanied an informal carol concert on a Bechstein grand a few days ago - I do these things for fun, and because I love classical music, and want to share my love of it with others.

Including the C major scale. Even the tone row .

Okay thanks. When you have some free time I suggest that you listen to the examples here. Maybe I'm too easy to please but these Pianoteq version 5 performances give me pleasure and do not entice me away from Pianoteq.

https://www.pianoteq.com/listen_by_instrument

Ian

No, my playing would be equivalent to the blowtorch on the cake, and I don't recommend it, not even to my worst enemies.....

As you will know by now, I don't do moderation .

Not I am the biggest fan of pianoteq either due to its characteristic sound signature, regardless of the model it tries to emulate, to my neophyte piano ears pianoteq still sounds like pianoteq in many ways,( based on stage demo and no tweaking to tone editor, but I do like it for certain types of music.

That said, that characteristic ( I highlighted in bold face ) you describe is very much down to the grado I feel too. I briefly owned a set of SR80e, the frequency response curve is still very close to that of the 325 anyway, as you can see here

http://www.headphone.com/pages/build-a-graph

The bass response in the Grado prestige series is poor and the treble is emphasized. There are some studies floating around as well by inner fidelity that shows what happens when applying a low frequency sweep through these headphones and looking at their response agrees with that what I hear in the sr80e I had too.

I still thought the grado actually made painoteq very sweet and nice sounding as long as applied some EQ compared to my other phones. Note that the AKG also has this same characteristic in the bass. The Grado I found very good in the mids and treble, even if a bit fatigue prone and harsh for me after longer periods, again since they are not very flat with that peak in the treble range not helping. I found I really had to play with EQ to get more out of them.

For music listening the grado really shone in certain cases I thought, but not as an all-rounder which why I let them go in the end, even if a bit hesitantly as there were some things I really liked about them, good spacious sound stage too.

Nobody said you can't play piano - just that you don't want to be subjected to judgement.



You're very interested in talking ad nauseam about how great the V-piano is - why not just show us? By your own estimation, even if we went to a store to play one, we will be confronted with poorly designed presets that will underwhelm us. Heck, even a C major scale would be ok.


Yes, you are famous for your luddite tendencies - and you were so proud of not having owned your own computer until recently. But that's not to say you can't pick up new skills - even at your "very advanced" age.



But it's actually you who gets hot under the collar defending the V. You never let a comment about the V go unaddressed. Hence the desire from many posters to see you prove what you say constantly - and it's not because we want it to be wrong. I think we would all enjoy hearing a great piano sound from the V. We want to hear the V piano specifically - we don't even care what you play. Sadly your manifold issues mean we will never hear you show us. That's a shame.



You are showing more than you know with these words. Again - nobody has actually tried to say that you can't play - only that you don't want to. I'm not expecting you to change your mind, but don't be surprised that people keep asking to hear what you so fervently describe on a regular basis.

Actually, I didn't start out defending the V in this thread. Well, not directly, anyway . (You must forgive my propensity to beat about the bush - I'm still getting accustomed to the British way, and need to get in the practice whenever I can..... ).

Pace Felix, I believe that words are more definite than music. Or individual piano sounds in a recording.........

My 'patches'/customizations for the V are out there for anyone to try out in their local Roland dealer. Other people have posted recordings here, made on their V, using their own settings. So, I don't see any need to add to all that - especially as I'll have to not only learn how to do it (equivalent to learning the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem for a brain so lacking in grey cells as mine), but also take steps to ensure that I can't be traced as the source of such incriminating sounds......

Don't forget, I'm Batman's nemesis in Gotham (coming to a cinema near you).

It's more of a general thing in your posting. You are a champion of the V-piano. We just wish we could hear what you are so excited about.


Unfortunately, the V-piano is very hard to come by in many markets around the world. In Melbourne, Australia I'm not sure anybody has one set up in a store anymore. The company that used to has gone broke. All I can go on is internet chat and Youtube. I think that may be the same for a lot of people.


I'm starting to believe you!

I've alluded to it often - it's more the playing experience that drew me to the V, and kept me there, and is still keeping me there, rather than its actual sounds. If I'm totally frank, I sometimes wish that the V could have the actual sound of the Imperial 290, the F278/308, the E-272, the D-282, the Model 1, the CFX, the SK-EX, even the D-274 (I'm not greedy, I don't need any more ) in its factory presets, and do away with all those parameters for customizations.

Other DPs have nice inherent sound samples (disregarding their looping and stretching etc.). But when you play them and start pushing hard, you hit a brick wall, and the artefacts of sampling get really noticeable and increasingly annoying. Because you (or I, at any rate) keep getting reminded that there's a limit to what you can do. OK, maybe Yamaha etc doesn't think that people want an ugly sound out of their piano. But what if the composer writes ffff and clearly wants a strident, even painfully aggressive sound? (Did Prokofiev want a mellifluous sound when he requested col pugno?) You get that from the V, but not from other DPs.

This can't be replicated on a recording - you have to play it for yourself. If I play a tone cluster ffff on the V, and put the recording here to show what I mean, would that really impress listeners? It would just sound like noise.

In the end, the reason I play the piano is for the music, and I want my instrument to respond to my playing like a good acoustic. No matter how badly I play. Heck, even no matter how well I play......

As the great Herbie would say, "All else is gaslight".

Considering how much you are looking at for a really good action in a DP, I'd rather go for a silent system in your grand, so you won't even have to get used to another key action.

If you really want to spend more money and space in a DP, then I really love the Kawai Grand Feel action (MP11, CA65, CA95, CS7 and CS10 I believe). But again, if you are only going to use headphones, no reason to buy CA95 or CS10 as they should be played without headphones to truly enjoy them. Then it would just be a case of how much you want to spend, portable or console. I think you could spend even far more money for the higher Yamahas and still prefer this GF action, it's really worth trying.

But really, if you are happy with your grand, at your level, any DP is going to feel one -or several- steps back. Think about the silent system as it might be the best option for you.

May not have the best action but the nord piano has some of the best sounding piano samples I heard! and its all configurable. action is decent but nothing like a Yamaha cp4.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2322872/1.html

I guess the same thing happens when you hit the record button, Bennevis? Have you tried beta blockers ...

No, I don't have any problem playing for inanimate objects, like record buttons. I've already played for a red light more than once .

I haven't tried playing for my pet gerbil.....oops, I don't have a pet either .

PV-88 made several recordings on his V-Piano that demonstrate its sound and dynamics:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2353357/Re:_V_Piano_Successor_anytime_.html#Post2353357

I don't know why I can't get this link to be "live", so you will have to paste it. I tried several approaches that work on other forums to no avail. Obviously, others here are doing it successfully all the time. Oh well.

Tony

TonyB, try this link:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2353357#Post2353357

jtsn - How did you do it? I don't see anything different such as [link] ... [/link] or any of that sort of approach.

Thanks...

Tony

I removed the part with the colon. Seems to be a flaw of the board software: Generating deep links with a colon in it, but not accepting those inside posts.

jtsn - Thanks!

Thanks for putting up the live link. Now those who are interested in hearing the V-Piano can.

Tony

Yes - it's interesting to hear these V-Piano examples. As usual with the Roland V, you get to hear a quite characteristic quality which could be described (of course, crudely) with words like this:

Detailed and expressive
Vibrant
Stringy
Jangling
Ringing
Up front
(and I have to admit,)
Artificial.

These are not meant as negative criticisms at all - just (off the cuff) resonses to the sound of what is undoubtedly still one of the most fascinating electronic instruments available.

Bennevis, it would be fascinating to hear your playing on the V-Piano, because your verbal clues swing between hints at rubbing shoulders with some of the finest classical pianists around, and having access to the best concert grand pianos - and tons of experince with various composers in the classical piano cannon, on the one hand to humble ham fisted efforts on the other. You may not have stated those things in exactly those words, but it's the kind of impression I've gained over the years of reading your posts.

Then the fact that you state that your identity must remain hidden obviously piques people's curiosity. Are you perhaps the queen mother's former personal pianist? A musical Anthony Blunt who is bound under the official secrets act? I think it must be something of that sort.

EDIT: Wait a minute: you're a cabinet minister. Or Bruce Forsyth, perhaps?

Nice to see you, to see you.......??

I'm as intrigued as you are as to why (some) people here are so fascinated by me, seeing as most of my posts are actually in Pianist Corner, and about classical music, not DPs, and I'm named after a Scottish mountain (luckily, still part of the UK - for now.....), and I have no personal profile. And the world of electronic geekery, which is such a major part of the DP world, is total gobbledegook to me.

Is it because my posts are somewhat........provocative?

Yes, I'm bound by a self-imposed gagging order (Article 3 No.2, also known as Prelude in C# minor) which cannot be lifted until 50 years after my demise.

After which, all my secret V-Piano recordings stored in a secret file in my V will be released into the public domain. They range from Ah! vous dirai-je, maman to 4'33", so are definitely worth waiting for, as they demonstrate my stupendous technique and musicianship, as well as the V's (almost) equally stupendous range of tone, dynamics, articulation and power.

Maybe Her Majesty is the only person in the world who is able to lift this gagging order.........

What PV-88 posted are just some presets, the v-piano allows vast customisability.

...and some real fine playing!

Tony

Sounds more like you're afraid of being judged! I've heard that many people are more afraid of public speaking than they are of dying! Again, I think its related to being judged.
Once you get comfortable playing in front of someone, add a 2nd person and try, then add another. Remember that your audience (no matter how small or big) actually enjoys hearing you play! I keep my public playing skills up to date by playing weekly as a pianist in a hospital lobby, and I'd highly recommend that you try that - most of the patients and visitors (if any at all) aren't pianists but will enjoy what you're doing. That should get your confidence up. Remember, you're not a robot who can mechanically reproduce a performance exactly the same each and every time - you're human, and mistakes are expected. Even Paul McCartney eventually learned to laugh at any mistakes he made.

I'm only afraid of being judged the same way as I judge other pianists when I listen to them, from my perspective as someone who knows a little about classical music, and can even tinkle the ivories a little.....

I've long ago lost the fear of playing in front of general audiences (as opposed to classical musicians who know the music well), and have played in stately homes, museums, churches, town halls, shopping malls, hotel lobbies, pubs & bars, even busy train stations.

Last week, I played for an audience of about fifty - and though I was mainly accompanying Christmas carols, I was sight-reading from three volumes of Carols for Choirs, and having to, er, modify on the spot, as I was playing the organ part on an ordinary grand piano (which has no pedal keyboard, unlike the Borgato pedal piano). And I also had to improvise an accompaniment to a somewhat risqué sketch based very roughly on The Twelve Days of Christmas (don't ask....) put on by five people - without any rehearsal.

And I didn't care whether the audience knew that I was vamping the whole lot.....

I saw that movie!

Ahhh, now I understand! I was in a similar situation about a year ago when I was invited to a party at a pianists home (along with several other pianists). All of the pianists were expected to step up to the plate and play a piece for everyone else at the party. While some of the pianists were playing, I couldn't help but overhear some of the other sitting pianists quietly whispering a critique to other pianists. I simply played a couple of my original pieces - no one can critique something if you wrote the piece you're playing. In fact, by playing your own piece, it sort of separates you into a different level than the rest of the pianists (not necessarily better, just different). So if you have anything original, its an excellent way of sort of raising the bar for the rest of the pianists in the room

Rather than raising the bar, I'd say it kind of makes the bar invisible. ;-)

Same effect - no worries about being "judged"