Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum The friction, blubbering, and lost motion are eradicated!

It was all about tightening the stack screws.. that was it, in total, so again I thank Sally Phillips and Mr. Foote for their input.
My tech let me film the repair. Thank God I have my piano back. What a learning experience!
http://youtu.be/2uOQuwY-Yc0

Operating the mechanics in this instrument for 25 years without a proper and comprehensive preventative maintenance schedule and this is all over.
Wishful thinking.
It seems apparent the learning experience failed.

Learning experience did not fail. The technician FAILED and profusely apologized. I think you're way off base. The piano is now to undergo its scheduled voicing, regulation phase without having extreme issues as occurred with faulty action securing and cheek block securing. At least my colleagues will know what's up if his happens to them. The tech landscape, sadly needs tightening, as many of us pianists who have endured incompetence know. This tech made two human errors so he is forgiven. Some others, I have no patience or tolerance for and I won't name them. Steinway and Sons came to my piano's rescue in 1989 when an incompetent tech did abysmal UNAUTHORIZED work on my piano.. Franz Mohr was sent to my house in the Central Valley and then a very good rebuild ensued. A previous rebuild was done by A and C Piano Craft in NYC. So you are grossly misinformed.

And I thank the PW techs, Phillips and Foote for well advising on the problem. Like I said, we pianists need to take piano technology courses to familiarize ourselves with the workings of our instruments. Sadly, fine pianos in small communities are often ill-maintained. I wonder why???

I certainly would not use you, Mr. Silverwood.

and 24 of those years were in Fresno, where I would not use any techs because they cannot reshape, voice hammers or regulate pianos. It's a bottomless pit of incompetence. Now that I'm recently relocated to the East Bay, we're talking a much better environment to maintain pianos. (SF, Berkeley, Oakland) Fresno is the PITS! So watch your assumptions and accusations, Silverwood pianos. Like I said I would not use or consider you.

I always knew Israel Stein to be one of natures perfect gentlemen and his patience with you was exemplary.

You have a piano that has not been serviced in more than twenty years. If you have access to Israel, you have around you some of the finest piano technical talent to draw from so that is no excuse. When I was in LA, I took over some of Kenyons' concert and studio work. He was a fantastic tech. I only did selected private clientele. Many I turned down during the initial phone call. I recognise situations like this immediately as I did with this particular post. It is not at all an unusual situation.

From the first, I sensed something weird about this post. Your piano has been Neglected and getting gradually worse and your solution is to close the piano up entirely as you play it.
What's what doing to your listening skills and finesse of touch?. It can be heard in your recordings. All it takes is a day or so servicing every year from one of the many skilled techs in your area. Who do you think is creating all those wonderful piano sounds from the sound stages? I knew those guys and learned much from them. Some of them tried to palm off some of their most hateful clients onto me and were truly amazed when they heard I'd turned them down at the first phone call.

Israel informed you very patiently about playing with the piano closed up completely but you weren't listening. Being closed up, your piano is being played far harder than necessary, particularly In duet work. Surely having to resort to playing your piano fully closed was a clue??? What are you looking for here?

I have heard your piano. There are hammer problems that you are not hearing. They are readily apparent even on a compressed recording. They must be worse listening live.

Your Insistence that nothing could have dropped inside your piano. It is all too easy and a common occurrence for something as big as a fat pen to fall into the crack between the stretcher and the fall board. All it takes is the fall board to be tilted forward just a few degrees.

Did you have Israels' permission to publish that video?

Israel is a fine tech and very knowledgeable. He could save you from yourself. He comes across very well on your video. Do you?

Remember.... You published it.

Greetings,
Money. The small community will not support the critical mass of techs that causes us to excel. There are a few fastidious techs in the hinterlands, but as you and many others have found out, they are rare. There will be relatively few fine grand pianos in smaller towns and rural areas that will get the sort of exhaustive, performance level, treatment that we like to discuss around here. With few pianos available to make a living from, it is more difficult to justify the time learning techniques that will seldom get used. It is also difficult to maintain ones chops on occasional action jobs.

What I have noticed is that the more the customer knows about the piano, the more they will spend on maintenance. One of the most important things techs can do to improve their business is to educate their clientele. Educated customers see the wisdom of regular regulations, and will both part with more money and expect a higher level of refinement in everything from stability to voicing. In small communities, there is rarely enough of these to keep a highly skilled tech busy. You might say that the fishing is better elsewhere.

Regards,

Israel has let me video all his work in all facets. I am NEW to Berkeley, I wish you would understand that. I started out in NYC.. and had access to fine technicians. My Steinway's first rebuild was at A & C in NYC. The second in Modesto, though I lived in Fresno. Fresno had a dearth of good techs, and when they had a few good ones in days of yore, I used Al Ellis from Oakhurst who regularly voiced my piano, so please stop faulting my piano maintenance. I am growing impatient with techs who claim to know everyone's relationship to their piano. Fresno is now a heck hole re: techs and I got out and saved my piano from any further abuses in Fresno. I have been a champion of good piano maintenance having published articles far and wide about. I have colleagues I regularly correspond with who have eons of challenges maintaining their pianos. One right now is bemoaning an awful job done on his piano. The profession needs to tighten its standards and produce able techs. Israel has beautifully tuned my piano, and if he were not retiring and going to a foreign land imminently, he would be doing the work (reshaping hammers, voicing and regulation) on my piano, despite the recent human frailty that he apologized for. So please no more lectures. I have not only blogged extensively about Israel but have sent him eons of referrals for which he has expressed gratitude. No tech has deserved the amount of blogs I have done in tribute to him and they are easily found at my blog site. Again I wish that techs would invest more time allowing apprentices to learn the trade properly than fault the pianists and teachers who are frustrated with the abysmal state of maintenance in most of the country. Most of us care enough about our pianos not to have them insulted and ruined by mediocre techs..and again Israel is one of the giants in the field and we all know it.

Israel understood my frustration for the past 48 hours and profusely apologized. He is in the midst of getting ready to move and leave the area, so he is now quite distracted.

The pomposity of some techs, who shall remain nameless, who do not have the skills to act pompous is quite disturbing to many of us.

Mr. Foote, I guess you missed the part of the last 48 hours where the bass notes were slapping.. and I found out that was key bed slapping which preceded the friction and blubbering.. two apparently separate issues--one related to loose cheek blocks and the other related to loose stack screws. If we pianists, have no idea what is going on, and we are left with situations like these, do you expect us to smile and be gratified when we earn our livelihood teaching and recording. Honestly!!!

one final thing. I teach many students around the country.. and just the other day a very pompous tech tried to trash my student's Charles Walter right before my eyes on Skype...because he wanted to sell her one of the grands in his shop. She has a fine piano that had received regular tunings. Walter pianos are good instruments. Hers has a nice voice. The audacity of the tech to trash the piano for personal financial gain. This was one of the RPTs.. in the Guild.. So besides him, I have seen this done before. All kinds of conflicts of interest abounding.

To RXD--Would spending 15 thousand dollars on overhauls mean my piano has been neglected? I think you are egregiously misinformed. And why don't you sample my you tube performances at http://www.youtube.com/arioso7 and comment on the piano's sound, tone and touch. Let me know if this Steinway M, 1917 having had excellent rebuilds twice over plus regular tunings, and yes voicing, by Al Ellis, is sounding like a piano ready to toss on the scrap heap. It is a wonderful piano, abused only by one particular misguided tech in 1989 that sent me spiraling into a pit of distress. And that story was published in the Piano Quarterly. The problem with people like yourself is that you have your own agenda, and you tell pianists what they should believe about their own pianos, like the Kentucky RPT who told my long distance student that she had a lousy piano (a Charles Walter upright) and should buy one of his grands.. I have seen so many incompetents and unethical techs that it turns my stomach.

And back to Israel Stein, he is the only tech I have used since my arrival in Berkeley.. the promised land in that I didn't have to deal with the barrage of unskilled tuners in Fresno... all who insisted they could tune ok but "Not make repairs." Sounds great.. they get the RPT and they can't make repairs. In 1989 I called Sheldon Smith (now deceased) and a few other big name techs and they would not come to god awful Fresno, so I was stuck in a no man's land of incompetency... The profession needs serious upgrading and the really good techs who see the awful work they have to tackle in the aftermath, agree with me. So please enough of your ridiculous accusations and assumptions about my piano.. Here is another sample of its wondrous tone.
http://youtu.be/yte9ugmpXyk
and another http://youtu.be/HLwHCemhSEc
Yeah, it really sounds abused!! Pick on some other piano that is truly dastardly and unplayable!!

I should mention that Israel is my regular tuner and tech, and when I asked him about the state of my hammers, strings etc.. he looked inside the piano and noticed the previous rebuilder's fine work.. new strings, hammers, pins, bushing, etc..and then I told him the piano was a bit bright when opened .. I have it closed because the room is small and there is a second grand beside it. Stein's position is SENSIBLE. He will tell you, if you, the player like your piano, the tone, don't let a tech tell you to change it. (My comment so they can rake in bucks) He looked at the grooves in my hammers, and didn't think them particularly remarkable, but if I wanted to have a timbre change, I could have them reshaped. So if you people want everyone to jump on YOUR schedules that are purely academic and not ARTISTICALLY driven, you are not the kind of techs I would hire to do any work for me. You just want to target pianists and tell them what your schedule is. The piano is not abused by the owner, but more likely to be abused by a technician and have I heard story after story from fine pianists around the country. So we are very, very careful about who touches our pianos and you should be too.

On my blog roster are five about the fine work of Israel Stein. In each I embedded videos of his fixing a squeaky pedal on my Baldwin and explaining in layman's language what he was doing to benefit those partaking of the footage.. Another about buzzes in pianos.. another, in several parts where he uses a cybertuner at the start of tuning, and then does ear tuning--still another lauding his honors by PTG. All my Word Press blogs were copied to East Bay Patch giving his work local exposure as well as national exposure.
Israel is well appreciated and we will miss him as he makes his departure shortly. I did a lot of research re: the next tech I am planning to use whom I will see on Dec 30.. Sounds like my piano is really neglected, Yeah right!

https://arioso7.wordpress.com/2011/...ng-fine-pianos-after-a-personal-tragedy/

TREADING on HALLOWED GROUND: The challenge of maintaining fine pianos after a personal tragedy

you are totally misguided!

RXD--you are just the type of tuner who would be off my preferred list. Your attitude is exactly the type I would eschew.. Thankfully, you are not going to touch my piano now or in the future.

Now, Shirley, which part of this sounded like a job application to you??

Read it again, there's more if you need it. I'm only too happy that you took me seriously enough to respond.

EDIT. I must have really got to you, I must read the many consecutive posts.

I only add this. That the condition of your pianos is not the fault of any of the techs you mention. By your own admission, you call them for squeaking pedal or clicking note, complaining when a tech makes a needed repair to prevent further wear (the two key buttons). I took the trouble to look briefly at your blogs. Very selective manipulation.
What you claim Israel said when the piano was "rebuilt". What he said currently in your video is to the point. The piano was not completely rebuilt or the key buttons would have all been replaced. not the hodgepodge we saw.

A tuner is wise to leave alone a piano that you are happy with but when you have to play with the piano closed up, the game changes. Look again what Israel tried to tell you about that in your video. You weren't listening. You would be amazed at my background and I don't say all this merely as a piano tech

I am not here to save you from yourself but this is to protect the fine technicians that you use thos way and are not listening to.

Some pianos have different sized screws holding the action brackets to the keyboard at the end of the action. If the screws are not matched to the holes, they can come loose. I hope that was checked. Even if it happened in the past, it can still be a problem.

Israel said the last rebuilder put in larger screws and that is on the footage. Didn't seem to pose a problem. Just needed tightening.

Why would I have nearly 2000 subscribers if I am such a poor pianist?
And the piano is closed due to the very small room this piano sits in. Are you going to advise me about my personal aesthetic choices? Seems this back and forth is leading nowhere. Put your own videos up, and let us sample.

You are in good company. Not much point in directing further attention to this moronic nonsense.

After technicians around the country, including California, pass this thread around will any of them have a desire to assist in the future with a client that throws acid at the tech community like this.

Look at the absence of technicians responding to this thread.

Quite telling. Nobody wants to tolerate crap thrown around like this, tech or non-tech.

+1

Music32
I would appreciate a clarification from you regarding your use of the term "unauthorized" regarding past work done on your pianos. It is not at all clear what you mean.

Fascinating thread! This is one of the greatest things about this forum is when pianists and technicians have meaningful exchanges. I applaud both Shirley and Israel along with the other comments of technicians on this thread who have contributed to greater technical understanding of the instrument, especially Sally and Ed!

I had to chuckle when I recommended Shirley contact Israel Stein BEFORE looking at her blog - where she clearly identifies her tech as Israel! As I said in the other thread - it's a small world! I've enjoyed many interactions with Israel over the years. He a no-nonsense kind of guy, who tells it like it is: more concerned with clarity than diplomacy perhaps. I hadn't heard he was retiring and leaving the country! Certainly a big loss for PTG, but then again Israel has contributed more than 99.9% of PTG members (that is probably literally true!) So many members join, and pay their dues, and nothing more. Three Cheers for Israel!

I'm a bit baffled by the defensiveness and critical nature of some of the technicians posts here. It is never our place to tell clients what they or the piano needs. Israel and Shirley's exchange in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0bGm2-bfVU is an awesome example of a constructive exchange between client and technician. To a technician, some of Shirley's questions and comments may seem naive and simplistic, but we are not the intended audience, which are non-technicians, who may know little or none about piano technology.

I loved Israel's comment about the keybuttons.
Shirley: "Now that keybutton thing...that can be fixed as an isolated event?"
Israel: "yeah..."
Shirley "and when you say all the keybuttons, do you recommend I replace 'em all now?"
Israel: "not if...if they're not giving you any trouble..."

Israel is not trying to talk her into extra work. He's not condemning her for the current state of her piano. He is simply giving her the facts as he sees them in a non-judgmental fashion, which to me is the definition of professionalism.

Shirley is proceeding cautiously due to past experience with technicians. This is smart, as we all know there are technicians out there who can create more problems than they solve. With some of the valuable information she has gained, she can make a more informed decision about the work she wants done.

When it comes to having a piano voiced, there is some very real risk involved. Not all changes will be perceived as "good" by the pianist - even if they are "technically correct". Take Horowitz's piano as an example. Talking to a couple of technicians who actually tuned the piano when it was in service, I learned that they personally hated it! And after Horowitz passed, and the piano was on a nationwide tour, it had to be modified extensively in order to make it more user friendly! So do you think Horowitz would have thought his piano improved by a standard regulation and voicing? Was he a moron for playing a "non standard" action?

We as technicians are in the business of helping clients express themselves musically. It can be a very tricky business sometimes. There is a lot of psychology at play. Sometimes the most challenging situations can also be the most rewarding. We have to be careful about making foregone conclusions about what the piano or the pianists "needs" are. As usual, communication is key.

Mr. Silverwood Pianos I have a magnificent tech doing quality work. That has been accomplished despite your insecurities.

I can count a handful I can put my trust in.. same for my colleagues, one of whom is agonizing over awful work done on his magnificent Steinway.

And he shipped his Steinway A cross country.

I'm no longer looking for Israel Stein's replacement (he is retiring as everyone knows) but I have an amazing tech who does proud to the profession. I would count the late Sheldon Smith among these. And one of my students had excellent action work recently done on her Yamaha by John Callahan.. whom I have recommended based on a terrific outcome. Touch weighting, voicing were outstanding. So yes, there are good techs and others who need to improve their skills. On a personal level, some of the good ones, have warned me about those to avoid.

Wonderful news. Now there is absolutely no requirement to continue this thread.

The instrument has been remedied for the previous immediate complaints and a new tech has been found.

Anything further from anyone is superfluous.

Thank you Mr. Silverwood and best wishes for your current and future undertakings.

Shirley, have you ever considered doing a little piano tech work yourself?

I've been only doing it for a bit over a year now, but it has greatly enlarged
my appreciation and love of the instrument, and I get to regulate it exactly how I
like it! Plus, it would be much harder for a more experienced tech to B.S.
me now.

I like your clean mordents and your trills with Chopin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5MLPxKFl2c

Nicely played, with good emotion and feel!

Maybe I could take a Bach lesson from you when I swing by Berkeley?

How much are your lessons?

Yes, Shirley, but can they trust you? Yes, you, Shirley.

You create a self fulfilling prophesy.

According to your own account,(read your own account again) You turn on your long time technician savagely, self righteously and publicly after he patiently tolerated your constant badgering him at his visit. I'm sure that he couldn't wait to get out of there.

Nobody should be treated that way. Do you understand that?? You are not alone among a certain class of piano teacher. I have anecdotes galore that I, so far have kept mostly to myself. We all have, truth be told.

Having 2,000 blog followers these days means nothing. Particularly since you are making some kind of cheap self aggrandising "reality show" of your life.
What kind of people must many of your followers be?

Does your new tech know what you did to your last tech?. Does he realise he's merely next? Did you video him, too???
Unless you've learned something from your post, behaviours tend to repeat themselves.

Do you realise that videoing and badgering is great pressure on a normal person just trying to do a good job for you??? I'm not surprised he forgot something. It's inhuman treatment of a fine older gentleman.

The honest "reality" treatment and very strong feelings that you have engendered from many in this post and your petulant replies to them shows that something got through to you. A dose of your own reality, perhaps?

Nobody changes that much, though. As you will no doubt prove if you answer this.

I would struggle to hear myself think if I were working for you, Shirley! You chat non-stop - that could cause lapses in concentration for a tech and also being observed every second can put people off their game. It's something to consider for your new tech.

Actually, that's very true, as all you tuners and techs
know.

I don't mind explaining the concept of iH and the basics of
how Tunelab works, but it's quite another thing if they look
over my shoulder the whole time.

Then if they ask questions, and expect me to work at the same
time, that's even worse.

I've never had a customer start videotaping me during my work,
but I don't think I would like it very much.

Ask questions at the beginning or the end, but not during. Leave us alone to get the job done!

Hi Paul, Israel Stein, my current tech who's retiring, was saying at his last visit that all pianists (esp. conservatory grads) should be required to take Piano Technology.. and is he ever right. I started taking the course as an elective at Oberlin Conservatory when Louis Sombaty taught it, and no sooner than I filed a hammer, it ended up a shadow of itself. I quit the course after I purchased the tool box, tools. Should have hung in there. I do know, however that it takes YEARS and years to be a good tech... and I'd rather devote those to practicing. But we should know what our pianos are about so we don't wig out when cheek blocks or stacks are loose. At least for me, when something goes wrong panic sets in.
Sure if you're in Berkeley give me a jingle a few days in advance. For further details, email me at shirley_kirsten@yahoo.com What Bach are you studying. I have a student who travels in from Chico who does all Bach so right now we are working on BK 2 WTC F minor Prelude... Thanks for your kind words about my playing.. sk

tech in 1989.. (and contained in my 1989 Piano Quarterly article "How could this Happen to my Piano?" wrote on the billing receipt that he "polished the whippens and filed the knuckles") and additionally said he "brightened my treble." No one told him to do any of this.. for what on earth reason does a tech pull the action when the customer wants a TUNING.. period, end of story. This fellow followed an extremely capable and excellent tech Al Ellis of Oakhurst who was a Sherman Clay technician and knew his way around Steinways.
When Al came we would discuss notes that bothered me as to voicing and he would voice. NO one told his successor to do anything but tune the piano.
The article published is at this link https://arioso7.wordpress.com/2011/...-of-the-piano-tunertechnician-landscape/

I am back here replying to new posts.. even though I thought the thread was exhausted and was begging for closure. But it's courteous to respond if I'm asked a reasonable question as this one was. re: clarifying "unauthorized" work.

This particular tech who did his own thing.. was a Scott Joplin era player and liked the brassy, sound.. He went to conventions of Ragtime, so it seemed his aesthetics and sensibility were rag-time centered. In fact a few years later I happened upon one of his rebuilds, and I won't say what the piano sounded like, and felt like. ..unplayable.

Agreed that you should have stuck with it. But it's not
too late to learn about your own pianos, and you could take care of the simpler things yourself. Your practice time needn't suffer too much...and in fact, you may even get more practice time if the cause of your agony is something as simple as loose screws.

And you might gain a bit of empathy for what it's like to tune
and regulate a piano, and you'd be better equipped to recognize
bad tech work. Better understanding will lead to more respect in
general.

Goldberg Variations, mainly the Aria, like everyone else!

My trills and ornaments are starting to be more even and clean these days, but it took some doing, and I still need more work.

I might try the Overture too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjJE9Zizlc

Isn't she wonderful?

I've also started Scriabin Etudes Op.8 - No.12. Wide intervals
arpeggiated for my small hands! That was funny when you put your hand up against your student's hand! His hands were HUGE!!!

Yes, the late Tatiana Nikolayeva was an incredible pianist. Her student Nikolai Lugansky made her proud. I particularly revel at Nikolayeva's Fasch. aus Vien.. Schumann..Keep up your practicing.. I'm swamped in so many pieces right now and then big work should be starting on piano following the 30th...
Fabulous overture by N. (without doubt)

The footage I have of Israel, not only got him more clients, but it was educational for piano owners who have sent notes of gratitude for now having information they lacked about their pianos. Just yesterday a woman whose piano has KEYBED slaps was relieved to know her piano could be fixed if not improved. Ignorance is NOT bliss. I think once again we have exhausted the topic and I am gratified that my own experiences documented back to 1989 may in some way improve piano maintenance on the part of the technicians and piano owners. Thanks for the ride you guys!!! See ya! Keep up the good work and high standards and we'll all be happier for it!!!