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#2368228 - 01/01/15 07:46 PM Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
I appreciate the touch and sound of my mp11, but can't set damper pedal to my liking.
I set the half damper parameter to max (10) but it still sustains too early.

I hope this will be adressed in a future OS, it's annoying and unrealistic compared to acoustic grand pianos I play every day. On grand pianos, you can depress the right pedal several centimeters before the dampers start to rise, in the mp11 it's really too early (several millimeters !), it's almost impossible to finely nuance.

It's the same with the Kawai triple pedal, and a Roland Dp10 (continuous) I still have. The damper pedal was well implemented in my previous DP (Roland Rd700gx, Roland Fp7-f).

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#2368247 - 01/01/15 08:32 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 130
Hmm, this is an interesting one.

Do you have a list of supported pedals? The MP11 makes reference to a F-30 Pedal Unit specifically, so I am not sure how well it works with other pedals.

For comparison, I have a Yamaha S-90ES and I have to use the FC3 pedal specifically to achieve half damper.

Now the question is, how has Kawai implemented the damper pedal and half-pedaling effect. Does the F-30 pedal use continuous messages or are they simply using 0, 64, and 127 and when you adjust the the "HALF PEDAL ADJUST" parameter from 0 to 10 are you just changing the 64 value to a different point (higher or lower). My guess is you like to keep your foot riding on the pedal all the time and you don't want the slightest dip to trigger a sustain. Makes sense then that they offer this "HALF PEDAL ADJUST" parameter. So it's probably just a matter that you must use the F-30 for it to work properly.

If you use another pedal of similar or same design you might need to crack it open and see what moving parts might be adjustable to change. Or you might need to hook up the MP11 to a MIDI monitor on your computer and see what messages are being sent/received for damper pedaling and listen how the "HALF PEDAL ADJUST" parameter is working.



Edited by ElmerJFudd (01/01/15 08:35 PM)

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#2368260 - 01/01/15 09:05 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12329
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: doudou
I appreciate the touch and sound of my mp11, but can't set damper pedal to my liking.
I set the half damper parameter to max (10) but it still sustains too early.

I hope this will be adressed in a future OS, it's annoying and unrealistic compared to acoustic grand pianos I play every day. On grand pianos, you can depress the right pedal several centimeters before the dampers start to rise, in the mp11 it's really too early (several millimeters !), it's almost impossible to finely nuance.

It's the same with the Kawai triple pedal, and a Roland Dp10 (continuous) I still have. The damper pedal was well implemented in my previous DP (Roland Rd700gx, Roland Fp7-f).

Have you tried calibrating the Damper pedal? Instructions are on p. 101 of the revised manual: http://www.kawai-global.com/support/manuals/pdf/MP11_EN_20140421_R102.pdf
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11


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#2368426 - 01/02/15 10:40 AM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
kanadajin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 18
doudou,
I have the exact same issue as you. In order for the pedal to have no effect, my foot needs to be completely above (no contact), or be in contact with absolutely no depress, not even slight. I have the half pedal parameter adjusted to 9 in my case, and have already gone through the calibration procedure as well. I should maybe try the calibration procedure again to see if it will make any difference since the last time about 2 months ago.

When I first received my unit, I had a sustain problem where notes would remain sustained for a few seconds AFTER the pedal was completely released, resulting in an "audio blur". I wonder if you have noticed this behavior at your end as well? This issue has sadly not completely disappeared, but does not happen as often.

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#2368497 - 01/02/15 01:35 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
scorpio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 594
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I have experienced similar issues with the pedal. It is quite clear when attempting to calibrate the pedal with Pianoteq. But after adjusting the parameters, it seems fine. I am sure I will need to tweak as I go along. I do use Pianoteq the majority of the time with my MP11.
_________________________
Kawai MP11 :: JBL LSR305 :: Focusrite 2i4 :: Pianoteq Standard

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#2368669 - 01/02/15 07:00 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: scorpio]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
Yes I have the Kawai F-30 triple pedal that was given with the mp11 (it's not an option), it is exactly the same behaviour than the Roland Dp10 pedal : it takes too early.
I recalibered the right pedal in the mp11 but there's no enhancement.

This is the first DP I find with this bad pedal implementation, I had many ones before all were ok with the amplitude of the pedal (Roland A90 EX, Kurzweill PC88, Nordstage 88, Roland Rd700GX, Roland Fp7F).

I think this can be adressed in a new OS, I hope someone from Kawai read this.

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#2368786 - 01/03/15 02:42 AM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: kanadajin]
panino Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: kanadajin

When I first received my unit, I had a sustain problem where notes would remain sustained for a few seconds AFTER the pedal was completely released, resulting in an "audio blur". I wonder if you have noticed this behavior at your end as well? This issue has sadly not completely disappeared, but does not happen as often.


Then your pedal is defective. I had such problems too. The second pedal did it 100% right. There are plenty of users reporting about this issue! Use the warranty.
Happy new year,
P
_________________________
MP11
Donīt quit one day before the miracle happens...

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#2368874 - 01/03/15 08:50 AM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12329
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I did have to replace my pedal unit. Call your dealer or Kawai directly and they will replace it for you after walking you through some tech support to see if they can't make it work.

I do hope they come up with a better unit. Their attempts at making a great piano like the MP11 shouldn't be marred by sub-standard pedals. By sub-standard, I mean they are not the right size and weight and don't have as far of a travel as even other digital piano pedals do. They also tend to break easily or are defective out of the box. My pedal unit was fine for about 6 months then it needed replacing. My second unit has been fine so far, I've had it for roughly 6 months now, but it hasn't gotten the heavy use that it gets over the summer, so we'll see.

I'd happily buy a better unit it one were made available.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11


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#2368921 - 01/03/15 11:58 AM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: panino]
kanadajin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: panino
Originally Posted By: kanadajin

When I first received my unit, I had a sustain problem where notes would remain sustained for a few seconds AFTER the pedal was completely released, resulting in an "audio blur". I wonder if you have noticed this behavior at your end as well? This issue has sadly not completely disappeared, but does not happen as often.


Then your pedal is defective. I had such problems too. The second pedal did it 100% right. There are plenty of users reporting about this issue! Use the warranty.
Happy new year,
P


Thanks for this, panino and also Morodiene. I have in fact contacted Kawai America in the fall and had an extremely good experience over the phone. They confirmed they were aware of this problem and that they would send a replacement unit - I was quite impressed and reassured, with very kind and knowledgeable people. Unfortunately after over a month later, it had not arrived so I e-mailed one of the very kind persons who had attended me who then informed me that these were on back order and were expected any day or within about a week. This was about 1.5 or 2 months ago and still no sign of the unit.

Since this issue had partially subsided (meaning not occurring as frequently with the half pedal adjust parameter modified) I did not follow up any further. Presumably, this may be the same issue that doudou is facing perhaps?

I am not much of a handyman around the house, but I am getting tempted to open up the pedal unit to see if anything could be done (perhaps a gear wheel has jumped a tooth or something other).

However in view of the comments on this board, this motivates me to follow this up with them again! I wonder if it would be worthwhile for the initial OP of this post (doudou) to at least contact Kawai or his dealer/rep to report his issue as well.

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#2369134 - 01/03/15 07:31 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12329
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I know during the past few months they've have a change of personnel with regards to the returns (as I returned my old pedal unit after receiving the replacement). It's worth checking in with them again, and phone if email doesn't yield results.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11


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#2369145 - 01/03/15 08:13 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: kanadajin]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: kanadajin
Since this issue had partially subsided (meaning not occurring as frequently with the half pedal adjust parameter modified) I did not follow up any further. Presumably, this may be the same issue that doudou is facing perhaps?


With my problem, I'm sure it's not a failure or the Kawai pedal (F30). Because there's the same problem with another pedal (Roland Dp-10) which worked very well with my previous DP (Roland Fp7f).

So the problem of getting the notes dampered too early is bad pedal implementation in the Mp11.
It's a problem using its internal sounds, I didn't try with software pianos because I don't want to play software (in Pianoteq the pedal curve is adjustable so pedalling via mp11 maybe can be adressed)

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#2369564 - 01/04/15 09:56 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9882
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
doudou,

A software update for the MP11/MP7 will be released in the near future with revisions to half-damper behaviour. I cannot guarantee the changes will satisfy you, however it's definitely worth trying.

Kawai Japan will re-open for business tomorrow, following the new year holiday (I myself returned from a trip overseas yesterday, hence my absence on the forum), so I will have more information on the software update release schedule then.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2369966 - 01/05/15 07:55 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: Kawai James]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
I will install the new OS as soon as it is delivered, I have the latest version in my mp11. Happy to learn there will be an improvement the right pedal behaviour.

However I'm not sure if it's a half damper problem, my 2 previous Roland DP had half damper (not only half, 127 values) but the effect didn't happen too early.

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#2371366 - 01/08/15 07:35 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
Don't know it this could be done in an OS update :
it would be very nice if the Virtual Tech allowed a "dynamics setting". Not a voicing (already there), but a way to set the level amplitude between ppp and fff, like it's possible in software pianos (Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq etc.)

I find the volum margin between ppp and fff to small in my Mp11, compared to acoustic grand pianos and my previous Roland Dps.
Setting the touch to Heavy improves the dynamics a bit, but obviously it becomes very difficult to reach the high velocities.

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#2371391 - 01/08/15 08:36 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9882
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
doudou, there is a 'Dynamics' setting in the 'Key Setup' menu, however I do not know if this will achieve the effect you are looking for.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2371485 - 01/09/15 04:53 AM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
panino Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: doudou
Don't know it this could be done in an OS update :
it would be very nice if the Virtual Tech allowed a "dynamics setting". Not a voicing (already there), but a way to set the level amplitude between ppp and fff, like it's possible in software pianos (Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq etc.)

I find the volum margin between ppp and fff to small in my Mp11, compared to acoustic grand pianos and my previous Roland Dps.
Setting the touch to Heavy improves the dynamics a bit, but obviously it becomes very difficult to reach the high velocities.


It might help to create some "User Touch Curves". Then you could decide which one to choose.
I think this is a great tool!
I use the "heavy" touch for warming up/scale playing and my "touch curve" for dynamical playing. The "dynamic" preset feels too weird in my opinion.
I just donīt like the behaviour of the bass octaves in my touch curves. They are too explosive now. For bass playing, the heavy setting suits better.
_________________________
MP11
Donīt quit one day before the miracle happens...

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#2372066 - 01/10/15 07:06 PM Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: Kawai James]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
doudou, there is a 'Dynamics' setting in the 'Key Setup' menu, however I do not know if this will achieve the effect you are looking for.


thanks, I also know this parameter, it is already on max (=10, by default), so I can't increase it wink

Panino, I tried to make my own user touch curves, it doesn't help me.

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#2378463 - 14 minutes 7 seconds ago Re: Kawai Mp11 : damper pedal unrealistic amplitude [Re: doudou]
doudou Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/12
Posts: 38
I've udpdated the mp11 to os 1.10 :
the damper pedal (after new recalibration) behaviour is now ok,
more controllable thumb


Another feature needed to improve in the MP11 is the sheet music holder : too far from the eyes (you need to have very good ones).
Sadly it won't be udpdatable as it is hardware obviously.

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