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I too enjoyed your thorough analysis of top teir pianos, but I whole heartedly agree with Monica when she says:
"However, and I am trying to say this politely and with all due respect, any ranking system of grand pianos that does not take into account the sound and action of the piano is, imo, of so little utility that I am not sure what function it serves."
For the player the action and (for his/her audience as well) the sound of the piano are the ultimate tests. Does quality of construction always equate to beautiful sound? Probably not.

Welcome to the forum!

Mike

Nephronos,

While I appreciate all the time it must of taken to assemble the above rating scale, your comments about the piano brands sound mostly like a collection of off the cuff salesmen soundbites. (Some real dandys in there!)

I'm sure all forumites would like to know how you sourced your information.

BC

NEPHRONOS SAID: I do not consider myself a piano expert. I am not a technician, I am not a piano dealer, and I am not a concert pianist.

Nephrons: With all due respect the above statement from you does not qualify you to post this ranking

As others have pointed out, with pianos connoiseurship has a relation to musicianship. Many, if not most, thoughtful piano owners are concerned primarily with the musical qualities (and affordability) of the pianos they search for.

I think that in the case of musical instruments that connoiseurship must include musicality as the highest quality, rather than other attributes suggested by Nephronos. A connoiseur may be someone who understands the subtleties of craftmanship and design. With pianos these subtleties are extended into another realm completely, that of music and the esthetics of performance. A piano is not much like a fancy watch, except to a wealthy person for whom possessions are very important. A piano is not like an expensive watch which is really just something for a weathy person to own, admire and show off.

There is also a huge world of old pianos that anyone who is truly a connoiseur would have to know about and care about. The world of old pianos is unknown, evidently, to Nephronos.

Nephronos implies that he is a connoiseur, despite his claim not to be, but this word really can only apply to those who are really experts in pianos. Many of the posters here, both amateurs and professionals, really do understand important things about pianos that Nephronos clearly does not. For example, his claim about the high significance of handcrafting; this idea has been discussed at length. What about this "connoiseur's" perspective on the all-important issues of piano preparation? No mention by Nephronos. Last, wouldn't a connoiseur of pianos be deeply interested in pianos with particularly fine case designs? Again, no mention; there can be little real knowledge.

Not everyone can be a real connoiseur of pianos. It takes time and effort to gain accurate, useful knowledge. Thankfully, there is an abundance of this real, and really valuable, expertise here on PW. Nephronos could get a lot closer to his goal of being a connoiseur simply by going through the archives thoughtfully.

Sock?

Neh, he's a piano mover. I bet you know him.

Derick

It seems to me that there is a strong correlation between the degree of acceptance and the position of ones piano in the list.

Exactly one year ago the forum members rated Larry Fine´s tier one pianos in the following way:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/12654.html#000000

Does any one else but me think the guy is trying to set himself up to be the next Larry Fine?
M&H has better financing then all of the top tier
pianos put together. I can't wait for the lawyers
start to try to find him to get him to retract.
I have a Rolex since the early '80s that I'm very happy with, thank you.
And I say all of this, not with all due respect!

LOL!

Yeah, the new Larry Fine, keeping all the bad stuff of Fine's books (rating pianos in groups) and ignoring all the real and useful detailed information about pianos.

I love this statement: "not with all due respect!" I would probably have simply said "with all due disrespect!"

Greetings Nephronos,

Thank you for your fascinating ranking of pianos and your initial post is certainly eliciting a flurry of response.
I believe that to rank pianos on the perceived criteria of quality of manufacture has no relevance unless the tone and touch of the product are fully considered in the assessment.

Your statement that Shigeru Kawai does not make a 9' concert piano is incorrect and does dent the credibility of your findings. The Shigeru Kawai EX concert grand is a highly acclaimed instrument internationally.

I hope you will enjoy this lively website.

Robert.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert 45:
[QB] Greetings Nephronos,
I believe that to rank pianos on the perceived criteria of quality of manufacture has no relevance unless the tone and touch of the product are fully considered in the assessment.

Thank you Robert I couldn't have said it better!

Interesting post but this person didn't write anything scholarly- by admission. As for an editorial? Well, opinion is where I call this one- unless it's that thing I don't understand very well- about socks and puppets.

Either way, I find the professionals (and regulars that love pianos) on this forum and their insights far more interesting and reliable along with Larry Fine's book.

Hello all,

Thank you so much for your warm, indeed sometimes very hot welcome. Let me start by saying first that anything I write is from the point of view of a neophyte. I would be the first to agree w/ you that I have no expertise and that I have absolutely no business making any claim to the affect that this ranking is any more than a thoughtful distilment of the limited research from someone who knows nothing at all about pianos. I do know somewhat more now. But really only somewhat. I thought that it would be interesting for all of you. My statement saying that I am nonbiased and nonaffiliated was only to say that I am not connected to the piano industry financially.

I did play or hear play first hand all the pianos on my list. I did hear some pianos that were not on the list that I did not include. The example of one grand piano whose sound/feel/tone failed was my cousin’s 7ft Suzuki. It had to be returned, because one of the keys did not seem to work. I don’t know the details, and I would not understand them if someone explained them to me.

I spoke with as many manufacturers and sales people and technicians as I could. All being counted, I think I spoke with 39 people in the industry who I considered expert. However, who I consider expert and my final analysis is really an opinion. When I spoke w/ Larry Fine, he made it very clear to me that his ranking was his own opinion and that it was not anything more than this. He also explained that he was not planning on coming out with another edition of the Piano Book and that he was looking for someone to buy the business from him. So, if any of you are interested? Contrary to what some of you may think, I am not interested in being the next Larry Fine. I do not think that he could be replaced. I already have a full time job and I know virtually nothing about pianos.

As for my sources for the info I wrote. I could have written a lot more on each brand, but the post was already too long. You guys can’t even imagine the amount of notes I took. I based the outsourcing of parts from what technicians who have worked on the pianos and what Larry told me. I did press him very hard about questions most people did not usually ask him. These sources were not perfect. I am sure of that. And, my methods were far from scientific. For those of you interested, (ie the JAMA comment) the post would not be considered a Randomized Double Blind Case-Controlled Research Study, but rather more like a Meta-Analysis or Editorial. Guys, the info has its faults. Take it all worth a grain of salt.

As for sound and tone, I do think that this is the most important, but also the most personal. I will share with you guys on this post which one I chose and the ones I thought were the best for me. It may surprise you guys that I did not chose based on the ranking.

I am glad to hear that my sources may have been wrong about M&H’s. I did really like these pianos and their history. Although, I own a Japanese and a German car, I do want to support the American piano industry. I viewed, in my ranking, the country of origin to be in the order of Europe, then Japan and U.S., then Korean, then Chinese, then finally Indonesia. I think that the Chinese will eventually make wonderful pianos, and some of them of low production and handmade instruments. But right now, it is not happening. I did not wish to seem biased against Asian products. I am a real fan of Japanese workmanship and their history of high quality (i.e. Edo period). I am glad to here that the Shigeru makes a 9ft Concert Grand. I would have placed this then at or slightly higher than the Yamaha S series.

Also, I did not take into account the companies ability to produce ornate and complicated cabinets. This could be also viewed as a high end complication that could translate into quality throughout their line up. In this case, I would have to drop the ranking of the Laul Estonias down a bit.

As for Steinways, they don’t need anyone to toot their horn. They are the industry standard. I mentioned that these instruments are very individual and that some Steinways have become superstars in there own right. If we were looking at the ranking list as a bell curve, Steinway is exactly where you would expect it. Also, I did say that all the brands ranked were connoisseur level. This means that all of these pianos are the best of the best. The difference between them can be looked at as style points only. There were a great many things inflammatory said by many of the sales people I talked to about various brands that I did not include in my original post.

Also, I placed Handmade, European parts, Small production volumes(I should have stated my arbitrary number was about equal to or less than 500 per year) as being marks of quality. This is not true obviously. Yamaha and Kawai are both great examples of how this assumption is wrong. They were both given rather short thrift in my ranking. However, many of the handmade low production pianos sound worse because of human error than the more consistently produced Yamaha C series (also an industry standard). This is why it is important to play any piano you plan to buy.

I was also asked for prices. I was looking for 6ft grands. And so my price list looked at these pianos across the board. Their approx. MSRP are:

A+ Bosendorfer= $90k
A+ Bluthner= $77k
A+ Fazioli= $97k
A+ Steingraeber and Sohne= $94k
A Bosendorfer Conservatory Series= $75k
A Haessler= $52k
A Sauter= $50k
A/A- Hamburg Steinway and Son’s= $70k
A/A- C. Bechstein= $89k
A-/B+ Laul Estonia= $34k
A-/B+ Grotrian= $51k
A-/B+ August Forster= $50k
A-/B+ N.Y. Steinway and Son’s= $59k
B+ Baldwin S Series= $n/a
B+ Yamaha S Series= $58k
B+/B Mason and Hamlin= $52k
B+/B Charles Walter= $35k
B+/B Shigeru Kawai= $42k
B Bechstein Academic Series= $48k
B Schimmel= $48k
B Seiler= $53k
B/B- Baldwin= $52k
B/B- Petrof= $30k
B-/ Shulze Pollman= $39k
B-/ Yamaha C Series= $32k
C+/ Boston= $30k
C+/ Kawai RX Series= $37k
C+/ Bohemia= $32k

As for which one I ended up choosing, I will not say exactly which one. But I have narrowed it down to four pianos. I finally placed a down payment on one of these and they are holding it for me until our house is complete. The four are:

Shigeru Kawai
Haessler
Charles Walter
Sauter

Thank you all for your patience with me and my many blunders,

Thanks for the clarification, Nephronos. I am glad to hear you played or heard first-hand everything on your list. That represents a VERY long and exhaustive piano search! I also agree with you that sound and action are very subjective qualifications. But I'd be more interested in seeing your personal ranking of these pianos based on sound and action than the ranking you provided which was based on other, in my opinion, less important factors. Let me ask you this: If you were ranking these pianos based on your preference for their sound, which, if any, would change appreciably where they occur in your list?

Nephronos,

I appreciate you taking the time to address the questions posed from your initial post. Reading the two together helps tremendously in understanding your perspective. Agree with Monica that it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on touch and tone.

So guys -- which one do you think he picked?

My guess is the Chuck Walter

In this case, I think your list would break down thus:

"Small Volume" <= 500 units per year (counting acostic grands and acoustic uprights unless otherwise noted)
Bösendorfer
Bosendorfer Conservatory Series
Fazioli (grands only, Fazioli does not make upright)
Steingräber and Sohne
Sauter (if counting only grands and not uprights)
Laul Estonia (grands only, Estonia does not make upright)
Grotrian (if counting only grands and not uprights)
August Förster (if counting only grands and not uprights)
Mason and Hamlin
Charles Walter (if counting only grands and not uprights)
Shigeru Kawai (grands only, no upright under this branding)

High Volume" >= 500 units per year (counting acoustic grands only unless otherwise noted)
Blüthner
Sauter (grands and uprights combined)
Steinway and Sons - Hamburg
Steinway and Sons - New York
Grotrian (grands and uprights combined)
August Förster (grands and uprights combined)
Yamaha S-series
Yamaha C-series
Kawai RX-series
Schimmel
Charles Walter (grands and uprights combined)
Petrof (grands and uprights combined, not sure if counting grands only)
Bohemia (grands and uprights combined, not sure if counting grands only)


The "Not Sure" Category
Blüthner (suspect less than 500 units if not counting uprights)
C.Bechstein (suspect less than 500 units even if also counting uprights)
Bechstein Academy Series (suspect more than 500 units if also counting uprights)
Haessler
Baldwin / Baldwin S
Schulz Pollman (suspect more than 500 units if also counting uprights)
Seiler (suspect more than 500 units if also counting uprights)
Petrof (not sure if it's over 500 units if only counting grands)
Bohemia (not sure if it's over 500 units if only counting grands)
Boston (not sure if it's over 500 units if only counting grands)

Link to my statistics on grand piano production numbers : http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/12141.html#000003 (as always, I welcome correction and addition)

Let us know if you re-jiggle your rankings if any of the above information is new to you, and/or if any of the "financial" information pointed out by others is new to you.

I bet he'd post that he picked Haesller. (And, I seriously hope that he hasn't actually agree to pay $52k for one in the 6'-ish range -- that's "big Blüthner" territory.)

This all helps in trying to understand what you've done and what you are trying to communicate.

In terms of being a being a good consumer, you've done very well for yourself in identifying good pianos, any of which evidently would meet your musical and pride-of-ownership interests.

What seems to be missing has to do with your emphasis is on the piano as primarily a "thing" whose character can be objectified by means of a list of attributes which are akin to those of any number of other consumer products. I think that pianos have much more to them than can be understood with standard consumerist thinking.

Musicality is really about much, much more, and this is what is important to many of the piano owners here many of whom have serious financial limitations (as do must professional musicians) but well-evolved sensibilities. Are they not connoiseurs? Most of them would find no help from your hierarchy.

For example, there are Chinese-built pianos that rebuilders here modify and turn into quite amazing instruments at very reasonable prices (Fandrich and Sons). For the best of the best pianos, there are rebuilding shops who turn out instruments that many in the know think are superior to their original versions (Dale Erwin or David Anderson).

And you ignore completely the role of the dealer or the technician who can transform by means of good preparation a piano from a very ordinary instrument to something truly worthy of a connoiseur.

The bottom line is that pianos are not simply objects in themselves but are tools meant for expressive use, which exist meaningfully only in relation to the people who build them, sell them, prepare them, and play them. This world of pianos is much bigger, and richer, than any hierarchical list.

Creating this larger understanding of pianos is, in part, what this website is all about.