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#237050 - 11/14/06 05:29 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
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Upon returning from work I found a note in my mailbox this evening, telling me that the jolly old facteur was unable to deliver a parcel this morning, but that it is available for collection from the village post office tomorrow from 0800 onwards. The mentioned amount of Swiss francs payable for la taxe sur la valeur ajoutée, et les droits de douane appears to correspond to what www.music123.com charged my VISA card about 10 days ago for one these marvellous recording wossnames.... hurrah! -Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
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#237052 - 11/15/06 01:31 AM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
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Hi Monica, As I write this, the post office doesn't open for another 30 minutes  ... the piano is (in my opinion) in need of a tuning, but I'll try to get something down over the weekend, with a suitable warning. I have house guests from this evening until Sunday morning, so not much opportunity to use it in anger until then. Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
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#237053 - 11/15/06 08:21 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by 2play4U:
[I mainly used the 'D' position (on a stool by the bend of the piano), but I have tried 'A' (on top of the lid). I think I like 'D' the best so far.
I received my Zoom this afternoon, positioned it on a chair in the D position, piano lid opened on the smallest stick prop and both mic inputs at "L" and the mic gain at "M." Despite technical errors in playing, I'm impressed with the fidelity. Once I get good with fudging around with the software, it may even prevent the dog from hiding. ZOOM Danny Boy excerpt Joel
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237054 - 11/15/06 09:04 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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500 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 841
Loc: Houston, TX
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"...Once I get good with fudging around with the software, it may even prevent the dog from hiding."
LMAO. Good luck with your H4. My friend had a teacher who was a prodigy, got his PhD from Julliard and was a incredible pianist. He told a story about this cute little pet dog he had . Each day, he'd go into the parlor to practice and the dog would follow him in there and lay down next to the piano. Like a loyal friend, the dog would listen to him play for hours on end. But as soon as he began playing Prokofiev, the dog would abruptly get up and leave the room. I always laugh when I think of that story.
Hope your pooch gets used to the new gadget.
Best regards,
Roger
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561
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#237057 - 11/15/06 11:52 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by jollyroger:  Hope your pooch gets used to the new gadget. Best regards, Roger [/b] I put him to work, helping me record.  
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237058 - 11/16/06 12:20 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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I get it: position D is the "D"og position style? Cool! I've looked at the charts provided by 2play4U. Here's a few comments. Microphone position D appears to be for "monaural" (monophonic) recording. Positions C and A are for "spaced pair" stereo recording. The H4's built-in microphones are configured for "coincident pair" stereo recording. This configuration produces good stereo effect, and also has the advantage that the two signals can be blended into a single, mono channel without favoring one signal over the other. I think we'd get better stereo effect from the H4 by using one of the recommended stereo positions. Frankly, I'd still put the H4 under the grand, pointed up (but would want to watch out to see if it picks up unwanted pedal noise). That position -- pointed up at the sound board -- would resemble position B for uprights. For stereo, I'd want the H4 a couple of feet away from the board, with one mic pointing bass, and one pointing treble. Of course, the best way to assess pudding is by taste. Cheers! --G
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237059 - 11/16/06 02:08 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by Ragtime88: I get it: position D is the "D"og position style? Cool! I've looked at the charts provided by 2play4U. Here's a few comments. Microphone position D appears to be for "monaural" (monophonic) recording. Positions C and A are for "spaced pair" stereo recording. The H4's built-in microphones are configured for "coincident pair" stereo recording. This configuration produces good stereo effect, and also has the advantage that the two signals can be blended into a single, mono channel without favoring one signal over the other. I think we'd get better stereo effect from the H4 by using one of the recommended stereo positions. Frankly, I'd still put the H4 under the grand, pointed up (but would want to watch out to see if it picks up unwanted pedal noise). That position -- pointed up at the sound board -- would resemble position B for uprights. For stereo, I'd want the H4 a couple of feet away from the board, with one mic pointing bass, and one pointing treble. Of course, the best way to assess pudding is by taste. Cheers! --G [/b] I took the pudding test: This recording is with the Zoom pointed straight up, located on a small stool, behind the pedals. pointed upward Under the piano, and pointing straight up, the sound was boomy to me and loud. So far, I am not playing around with normalizing or amplifying the files, so what you hear on all recordings is with both inputs at L and gain at M. The recording position that I like best, thus far, is a modified A - I lowered the music desk and positioned the Zoom on the closed desk over Middle C pointing toward the tail. I'm surprised that there was some separation of the bass and treble, considering that the mics point toward each other. A little softer sounding than the other recording, so I'll try playing around with the software to see if it can be brought up more. Modified A - closed desk Joel
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237061 - 11/16/06 06:22 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by Monica Kern: I'm going to have to read that manual, I guess. [/b] Well, I had to read the manual, too.  You are correct. The input1/2 controls are for the external mics. I did, however, play with the modified A file and "normalized" it with Audacity. The change boosted volume and improved separation, but also exaggerated sustain. modified with normalization
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237062 - 11/16/06 11:26 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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Joel -- a piano deserved to be heard. Very pretty. Your "pointed upward" recording is *rich* with tonal quality, but I agree a *bit* boomy, a *tad* dark chocolate. Try relocating the unit to capture more highs -- right to left shift, or rotate. Your other recording is (imho) thin. It's a more balanced sound, but doesn't have the complexity/richness and depth of the first one. Tiny tweaks on location of the "coincident pair" microphones can make a huge difference in the sound quality and stereo separation of the final result. I'm listening to you on a set of JBLansing audio recording monitor speakers. If I were voting, right off, I'd say your "upright" position is the best. Very rich sound. But, you're disappointed. So, let's just trade pianos straight up! Cheers. --G
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237063 - 11/17/06 11:19 AM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by Ragtime88: Joel -- a piano deserved to be heard. Very pretty. Your "pointed upward" recording is *rich* with tonal quality, but I agree a *bit* boomy, a *tad* dark chocolate. Try relocating the unit to capture more highs -- right to left shift, or rotate. [/b] OK...comments much appreciated. Tried again. I re-positioned the Zoom to capture more highs. I moved it to my right, so it is pointing upward and approximately under the C above middle C. Prior, it was directly under middle C. It seemed counter intuitive to shift the unit, as you suggested, from "right to left" in order to capture more highs. I also opened the lid of the piano fully. Prior it was on the small stick prop. I recorded twice - once for a piece heavy in bass: bass and again for something more treble oriented: treble Again, I think the under piano position has too much boom and emphasizes the sustain. I'm also listening on simple Harman/kardon speakers on my computer. Thanks
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237064 - 11/17/06 01:30 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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Sorry, I think I meant "right or left" not "right to left." What you did is what I had in mind. Your recordings "bass" and "treble" are less boomy than "upright." So, I think you moved the unit in the proper direction. All of these under-the-piano recordings, however, have more harmonic overtones than "modified a," and I can understand and hear your objection about emphasized sustain. Your "modified a" recording has the best stereo separation, and captures a very clean sound. Shift it slightly left to get a little more bass? Besides, who sits under a piano to listen to it? The up above location probably sounds better to you because that's what you hear when you play. Do it! 
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237065 - 11/17/06 03:01 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Originally posted by Ragtime88: Sorry, I think I meant "right or left" not "right to left." What you did is what I had in mind. Your recordings "bass" and "treble" are less boomy than "upright." So, I think you moved the unit in the proper direction. All of these under-the-piano recordings, however, have more harmonic overtones than "modified a," and I can understand and hear your objection about emphasized sustain. Your "modified a" recording has the best stereo separation, and captures a very clean sound. Shift it slightly left to get a little more bass? Besides, who sits under a piano to listen to it? The up above location probably sounds better to you because that's what you hear when you play. Do it! [/b] Alright, I did it and I do believe it helped. Final result summary - Zoom on desk, music rack lowered. Piano lid prop on small stick. Positioned more toward the bass, approximately a few keys to the left of the C below middle C. (was over Middle C originally). Gain on M. Both files normalized with Audacity because volume was on the low side. Again, I tried to do an excerpt from a piece with more bass new bass And one with more treble new treble Thanks for the suggestions!
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237067 - 11/17/06 10:03 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Philly burbs
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Sometimes the biggest problem with a new toy is that you can't stop playing with it. Compelled to find the best placement for the Zoom, and many thanks for the emails and suggestments, I think I have the best arrangement for my piano and room. D position - Zoom on tripod pointed to the middle of the register.  Gain on M, piano lid on small prop stick. Tried to play softly. My observations - bass and treble separation are not as pronounced as when the zoom was directly on the music desk. Treble is reasonably clear. Bass is still a little boomy, but not as much as when the Zoom was under the piano. For home use and general playing around, I think this will be my preferred set up. As before, I recorded twice - one with greater treble concentration;
newest treble and one with a greater bass concentration newest bass Forgive the fat fingers...I was playing from memory and was concentrating on fidelity. Thanks for the suggestions and criticisms. And may I be among the first to wish all a Happy Thanksgiving Holiday. Joel
_________________________
Bösendorfer 225
Yamaha CVP 307
--------------
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined. Henry David Thoreau
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#237068 - 11/18/06 01:04 AM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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Well, it's not Satin Sheets . But, you're home-ing in on the very sound that *you* want to express in your recordings. Bottom line (and for everybody, really), how do you want others to hear what you do? Very mello, Joel. Not ragtime, but tolerable (ok, just kidding!!!). --G
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237069 - 11/18/06 01:51 AM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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Yikes! I have stars. Thank you thank you, but please don't elect me to anything. :p
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237070 - 11/18/06 11:53 AM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
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Hey Zoomies , I am currently experimenting with mine[1], (further to purchasing a $30 tripod and a 2GB SD card this morning). However, my piano is a bit out of tune, so nothing is getting posted for another week or so, once the it is all lovely and harmonious again... -Michael B. [1] It is not sounding too bad in a similar position to Joel's photo above, though perhaps a little further away. At the distance I had it a little while ago (gain on M), the levels are still a little under (whilst knocking out Brahms Op118#1 in a rather 'spirited' fashion), so I can probably move it a bit closer in still, I reckon.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
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#237071 - 11/18/06 05:47 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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Full Member
Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 102
Loc: Wisconsin
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On page 32 of the manual there appears to be instructions for further adjusting the volume level (after setting the switch). I haven't tried this yet, but I think it's better to capture the best image possible and avoid digital tweaks later. And, we shouldn't have to move the unit to get the volume right. And, forget tuning. Post something!
_________________________
--Gerry
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#237072 - 11/18/06 05:54 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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7000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 7537
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
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Yo!
What a great thread! I have to see the Zoom somewhere. Thanks Ragtime88 for the "heads up"!
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#237075 - 11/19/06 07:04 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1162
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Welcome mds -
My son's piano teacher asked us to bring the Zoom to his Thursday lesson, to give it a try. This guy has a fair amount of decent recording equipment, and has worked professionally in studios, including sessions with one of the most successful record producers ever.
He's getting one.
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#237076 - 11/19/06 07:49 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
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R88: On page 32 of the manual there appears to be instructions for further adjusting the volume level (after setting the switch). I haven't tried this yet, but I think it's better to capture the best image possible and avoid digital tweaks later.[/b] Indeed, I have experimented with the fine tuning as well, but in general the meters don't really seem to that accurate, least not for me. One can record at what seems a resonable level, (almost at max during loudest bits) and then once transferred to a PC and opened in a suitable audio editor, the levels are in fact quite low and the file needs normalising. I reckon there is quite a bit of safety headroom built in such that overdoing it is less likely for the unwary amateur recordist. So it's still all a bit of a work in progress for me at the moment... And, we shouldn't have to move the unit to get the volume right. [/b] But a darned sight easier that moving the piano And, forget tuning. Post something![/b] Oh OK, watch this space over the next few days -Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
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#237078 - 11/19/06 08:59 PM
Re: Just got a Zoom H4
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2000 Post Club Member
Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2364
Loc: Philadelphia
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The reviews are just too compelling- I want in before the cult becomes selective. Can someone post everything necessary at this point beyond the Zoom....i.e. looks like a tripod is part of the equation and someone download softare too, also finally the methodology to upload to a place like this... The entire package would be great now that you guys/gals have done the "heavy lifting" for us all. I would be very grateful.
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