Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
I somewhat repent; is possible my question wording was not completely accurate. I'll try to change it:
Is it necessary for pianists who play jazz, rock and pop music, learn to play also drums, to develop a sense of rhythm at a high level corresponding to modern music?
Michael Martinez,You seriously believe that so you can play the keyboard without the preliminary work with drums, even digital ?
I was wondering where you got that statistic - 90% of the pianists do not play on piano? So it's in California? In Israel, it is a bit different: all jazz pianists of professional level, as well as youth, playing drums and can accompany. All our best drummers play the piano, and the better drummer - Is he better as a pianist (and vice versa too)!
No! I played drums since I was 7 and now I am trying to unlearn tapping beat one with the right foot and beat two with the left. At piano I want to tap the opposite direction pattern: LRLR and not RLRL
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
All of them also play the drums - without my advice.
About Tamir Hendelman do not know anything. 83% for the fact that he also plays drums. But you live closest to him - easier for you to ask!
Here's a story from the past: in 1976 toured in Israel Stan Getz Quartet - with .Mike Richmond on bass, Billy Hart on drums, Joanne Brackeen on piano. Joanne said that after the release of the album of Chick Corea "Light as a feather" and under its influence , she and all her acquaintances in New York pianists bought a drum set - only for training. But it's in New York ...
That Stan Getz Quartet is one of the great ones. I had a vinyl recording of it with N-Hop on bass replacing Mike Richmond. What a group
In my olden days in NYC I observed exactly what you've been saying. The only place I differ with you is that no, it's not "necessary," strictly speaking, for pianists to play drums. But yet it's common enough to find great pianists who play drums. Common enough that examples are plentiful ...
On the other hand, it's often the case that great musicians turn out to have a bunch of instruments they play. I can think of more than a few examples of that. Also, in terms of composing you get a better view–more insight–of how to write for write for instruments if you can play them, or, at a minimum, have at least have a strong sense of how they work and what it takes to play them.
That sense of really knowing instruments and what they can do is what makes say, an Ellington or a Gil Evans so special. Of course there are many others that could be named.
What it comes down to is special(ised) knowledge leads special(ised) results. Jazz being a creative music we want special(ised) results.
The only place I differ with you is that no, it's not "necessary," strictly speaking, for pianists to play drums. .
I think there is general agreement on the fact that a professional musician, artist of Western music MUST be able to play - in one way or another - the piano. The reasons for this are quite clear and on this subject, it is not necessary even to debate: in every music school there is a course of side piano (in Russia called mandatory piano) . The need to acquaintance a keyboard instrument for music education has historically been tested for at least 300 years.At the same time methodically organized jazz education exists only since 1945. As can be seen period of 70 years is not enough to convince teachers of the need to study drumming for jazz, because of its central elements - the rhythm , what perfectly balances the importance of the piano to study the central element of Western music - harmony and melody. Spontaneous behavior of professional jazz musicians and students outside educational framework underscores this need. Group intuition doesn't deceive! Maybe we should wait for 230 years, and then return to the discussion ?
The only place I differ with you is that no, it's not "necessary," strictly speaking, for pianists to play drums. .
I think there is general agreement on the fact that a professional musician, artist of Western music MUST ..... Maybe we should wait for 230 years, and then return to the discussion ?
Sarcasm weakens points that were otherwise well made.
Sarcasm weakens points that were otherwise well made.
Mark,The definition of "sarcasm" here simply does not fall under its meaning:
a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain or a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual I gave it as a contemplative experiment, "imagine how it will be after 230 years" (if we were still living)
If you say you weren't being sarcastic I accept that. But dictionary definitions differ hence my use of the term. Please accept that. As a contemplative experience, which I can accept of course, well, then I'd say the outcome may be far different than you've predicted. History is like that ...
Is is "necessary" ? I'd say absolutely not "necessary". I'm 61 years old and have experimented over the years. Some years back I bought a practice pad and drum sticks to take on a vacation. I discovered there's this whole control of the stick's momentum and the rebound from the stick's strokes. Unless one wants to acquire a whole new discipline, I don't think the return on the investment (ROI) is justified. I'm adressing the comment on acquiring a drum set as a sort of cross training effort. I'm also not so sure the technique of playing with drumsticks has a direct effect on the technique of playing piano. Another question is how much time do you have to invest in learing to play a drum set ? Time to spend cultivating your piano skills AND new skills playing the drums ?
On the other hand. I have also collected various hand drums also. I have a Meinl bongo cajon, a Meinl fiberglass Ibo drum, some bongos and various other hand drums. I also have a Meinl Slap-top cajon. In my opinion there is some directly translatable motion involved in beating a drum with your hands and playing piano percussively. There's also an effect of working out the muscles of the hand when beating a hand drum. I see this as having a cross-training effect.
You can also play the piano with a drummer's approach. Say, playing bouncing back and forth between the left and right. Errol Garner comes to mind. But many others who don't (come to mind right now).
About 5 years ago I bought a baritone ukulele after discovering it can be tuned like the highest pitched 4 strings of a guitar. I made a concious decision to "finger-pluck" rather than strum. With no training. I'm not looking to take on a new discipline here, just have a musical toy to play with. I play some blues and some Beatles tunes on the uke (Dear Prudence and Day Tripper for example). I thought there might be a cross training effect from this. I haven't noticed any benefits for the piano, but I still enjoy playing it for fun.
. I'm also not so sure the technique of playing with drumsticks has a direct effect on the technique of playing piano.
indigo ,ask any drummer to play something rhythmic on the piano - even if he can not play at all , and write about the results here, okay?This trick I've seen many times ...
Quote
on the technique of playing piano
This is is not an exact phrase: exactly - the rhythmic technique of playing the piano .
I hope you don't mind my resurrecting this interesting thread ...
Certainly there's no requirement that any particular musician play any particular instrument(s), but I must say that I strongly believe that piano and drums go together quite beautifully as a well-matched "cross-training" opportunity.
Aside from the obvious crossover benefits (piano is a percussive instrument, after all) and the emphasis on rhythm, there is a fundamental similarity in one of the most vexing challenges faced when playing either instrument ... and that is "independence."
In the piano the independence is between fingers and two hands. With a drumkit it's about four limb independence. Getting the brain to do separate but integrated things (whether it's fine motor skills or gross motor skills) is a closely related focus for masterfully playing either instrument.
Over the years, I've played (and continue to enjoy playing) a wide range of instruments (including guitars, banjo, flute, sax, lap steel, dobro). But the combination of drum kit and piano (and other keyboards) is by far the most enjoyable and rewarding combination.
I do my best to split my daily practice time between the two - and am never disappointed at how progress made on the drum kit translates to the keyboard, and vice versa.
So while I appreciate that this thread has grown a little stale, I felt strongly enough to want to share my personal experience and to encourage anyone out there on the fence to give the piano/drumkit combination a try and see how it enhances your enjoyment and progress as a musician.
Hi OneWatt, my view is that there is no such thing as 'independence', rather, we build a repertoire of coordinations of progressive difficulty. So, no matter how extensive the 'independence' of our limbs or fingers seems to become, there is always something at the next level that we won't be able to do until we've worked on it by whatever means.
From that starting point, when I have a difficulty with some piano coordination, I would naturally - and I believe more efficiently - deal with it at the piano rather than at any other instrument. Blues LH patterns are a case in point since they tend to rely more on finger coordination - something you wouldn't be able to exercise so reliably when sitting at a drum kit.
Can you think of a specific example of a piano or keyboard coordination problem that might be better approached on a drum kit?
Your point is well taken that trying to address piano-specific technique problems is best done at the keyboard.
Interestingly enough, it was this very morning ... running through a drum exercise I created for myself that requires maintaining a steady but unusual ostinato involving two feet (kick and hihat) while playing some varied odd-metered hand work ... that I realized how analogous this independence challenge is to what I've been trying to accomplish in advancing my piano blues playing ... i.e., maintaining a reliable left hand walking bass line while allowing my right hand the opportunity to "free range" across whatever musical ideas I'd like to express.
The specifics of all of the above are entirely tactical. For example, the muscle memory achieved through success in one exercise is not at all useful for helping muscle memory in the other.
And so, in response to your thoughtful question: no, personally I can't think of how a drum kit exercise might directly help address a keyboard coordination problem. And even after mastering a 2-part invention by Bach, my stick technique still feels the same ;-)
Buy when we experience music less tactically and more strategically, this opens up both insights and ideas on overcoming the challenges involved with each instrument, especially when there are corollaries. Just like learning a second language opens up insights into the structure of your native tongue.
So for example, when I finally - through slow and regular practice in a structured, incremental way - manage to get to that breakthrough point where I'm playing integrated parts that demand independence on the drum kit, this builds confidence that yes, my hands CAN do this sort of thing if I am patient and disciplined enough to learn. And, even better, I know firsthand how I can best help myself through the frustration stage of learning.
And so I feel that for me the methods for accomplishing this on the drum kit are directly applicable to how to approach mastery on the keyboard of similar challenges ... not because the two musical puzzles are similar in specific technique, but because the real obstacle that stands in the way of success is me ... i.e., more specifically, my brain.
Once I see up close how I can train my brain in one musical arena, it becomes increasingly obvious how I can accomplish similar things with that same brain in another.
This also has the benefit of building the kind of confidence it takes to assume increasingly difficult musical challenges that, absent this experience, I might have wrongly assumed were just too difficult for me to accept. This alone has propelled my musical capabilities forward beyond anything I might have imagined.
In short, while I think cross-training like this doesn't really produce any tactical advantage, it does offer a compelling strategic benefit.
Sorry to get overly wordy about it ... by "strategic" I just meant taking a very broad 10,000 meter view of the landscape, and by "tactical" I refer to the up-close particulars.
Terminology borrowed from military, business, and political thought ... perhaps not typically applied to musicianship.
Thanks OneWatt. Although what you've written reads well, I have no idea how - in the context of the actualities, in the grind of trying to coordinate something that is simply not working out - you take the 10,000 meter or the close up view. I can't even relate to the idea of "taking a view" when what, in my experience, is required is the often intractable problem of knowing how to proceed. How to even take that first step. IOW,for me, there is nothing to see, nothing to take a view of.
How do I do it? I start slow and gradually speed up.
Greetings to all! I'm sorry - I forgot to mention from OP of such a small detail that I was referring to non-classical pianist, ie - a pianist in jazz, rock, pop, etc. There generally is no doubt that the background of drums just need! And I also do not think that playing the drums will help in polyphonic works: polyphony and polyrhythm - it's 2 different things .
Greetings to all! I'm sorry - I forgot to mention from OP of such a small detail that I was referring to non-classical pianist, ie - a pianist in jazz, rock, pop, etc. There generally is no doubt that the background of drums just need! And I also do not think that playing the drums will help in polyphonic works: polyphony and polyrhythm - it's 2 different things .
Nahum -
I won't second guess the basis of your original post.
Yet it's my understanding (certainly not from personal experience) that students at the finest classical conservatory schools are required to learn more than a single instrument, no?
If I'm mistaken, please pardon my ignorance - having never attended such an institution. But my impression is that there's a strong conviction that being a well-rounded master of any instrument requires perspective from another chair.
