2play4U,

THANKS! Like so many people, I have hundreds of vinyl albums from the 60's - 80's. Even if they were all available on CD, it would cost thousands of dollars to "upgrade" them all. I really want to expose my kids to this great music, but gathering 'round the ole turntable just doesn't cut it any more. I used your cassette tape technique with a vinyl album, and it works great! Now my son is listening to Supertramp's "Even in the Quietest Moments" on his Ipod!

Warning for those not in the US: that is not the Zoom company site, but merely the site of their US distributors. If I had realised that earlier than I did I'd have one by now. The actual Zoom company site is here .

Best wishes,
Matthew

And, it's very informative. Thanks for the correction! --G

sorry[/b] I'm late here.......but will this zoom work with an acoustic piano? Does it only work with certain models?

thanks![/b]y'all an informative bunch of people!

The Zoom is just a digital recorder, Arias. It will record any sound, any instrument, anything. My son likes to record himself making up stories. My daughter records her progress in learning flute. I will spare you the recordings of both.

SamAsh has a video overview of the recorder too that I just found this morning. Doesn't go into a whole lot of detail, but he does wave the thing around so you can see almost all the sides.

SamAsh

It says you need Quicktime to be able to view the video.

Does this come with an AC Adapter? Or, is that a separate item to be purchased?

Edit: Nevermind, I re-read the official site and see where it says the adapter is included.

Heck, I showed it to our highspeed photographic department (DaimlerChrysler) and after the last townhall episode...they had set up all their video recording equip at an private-off-site venue, checked their equipment...everything OK. The next day, the sound guy from the facility..only concerned with the output to the crowd, turned the volume off for their video feed...NO SOUND. A really big Townhall meeting with VP's and NO SOUND...

They are seriously looking at the H4...thanks to you guys...

How is everyone liking the Zoom H4? Are there any downsides to it, quality of recording etc? Any other suggestions on a different recording system that would be as good as the H4 without breaking the pocket book? I was thinking about getting an H4...my M&H RBB is just about done, finally, and would like to record it etc. Thanks, GP

The major downside as I hear from the recordings is the "inherent sound quality limitation" (as said by Greg Wilder). Only XY stereo recording is possible, -if additional mics are not purchased- which is safe (to avoid phase cancellations) for beginners, but pianos are generally recorded using a spaced pair of mics.

Regards,

P.S. I was able to respond your PM today, since your inbox was full recently.

I still love mine... in the space of a few weeks I recorded enough pieces to put together a CD to give to family members for Christmas. Admittedly, they're an easy audience to please, but they all were amazed at the quality of the CD (the sound, that is, not necessarily my playing. ) When I play it on my (good) stereo system, there is absolutely no background hiss, and it sounds much like a "real" CD.

The only downside that I have seen so far is that most of the time I end up normalizing the files in audacity to get the volume up high enough. I'm getting better at adjusting the gain so that my raw recordings are close to the normalized product, but I think I can do even better with further practice and experimentation with positioning.

I don't know of any alternative arrangement that would get you the same level of recording quality for $300... I think the decision is whether you want to take it to the next level and buy good mics, a mixer, pre-amp, etc. For me, the quality with the Zoom more than serves my needs, and you simply cannot beat the ease of setup and file manipulation.

I love my zoom this much ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you monica for suggesting that for christmas... I would have probably gotten some game system that will be outdated in a few year

Matt

Thanks for the feedback. Has anyone tried the Helpinstill as a recording pick-up?

www.helpinstill.com

I had never heard of this product, grandpianoman, but I spent a few minutes looking at their web site. Guess I'm confused about how it works... they say the sensors pick up the vibration of the strings and sends it directly to your speakers. Does that mean it is for amplification only? Would you then have to route the sound from the speakers to some kind of recording device?

I could only find one photo of what the system looked like installed, and it seems as though the sensors are placed between the soundboard and strings. If it's touching one or the other (which it's gotta be, right? but I couldn't tell which one from the photo), wouldn't that affect the sound quality?

I'd be curious to hear from anybody who has seen this system in action. But I think I'll still stick with my Zoom.

Hi Monica, I also looked at their site, and could not tell how it is installed in the piano, however, there was a page describing how one would use it for recording, hence my question. Maybe I should post the question in a new post.

I went to a concert of country music last night...one group was using an acoustic grand, they were also using this Helpinstill product instead of mics. The piano sounded fine over the speakers, but I am curious on how it would sound, recording a piano.

First of all, great playing everyone! All of the recordings play with great emotion, and the rags have that wonderful slow grace.

Now, I don't think I can resist buying one of these anymore. I was planning on buying a pair of NT5s and I was still shopping around for a digital recording device (e.g. Microtrack) but the H4 sounds like the best all-in-one package. I may still buy the NT5s to connect to the Zoom hearing that the AKGs sounded a bit better than the internal mics.

Lately I've been using a borrowed DAT recorder and a stereo JVC mic that has yielded some decent results, but it's time to return it to its owner and buy my own.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

- I've noticed that most of the recordings sound slightly muffled. Is this a limitation of the built-in mics? Are they not able to capture high frequency too well?

- How is the bass response?

- I don't own a tripod, have any of you tried placing the zoom on the piano itself. I hear that's not recommended. Should I buy a tripod for recording my grand?

- Before I place my order, are there any other similar digital recording devices (under $500) that are worth looking at and comparing with the H4?

Hey chopin952,

a.) I know what you mean about the "slightly muffled" aspect. I think that's what Greg Wilder was referring to as the "inherent limitations" of the sound quality. That's why the Zoom can't substitute for a truly high-end recording system (or, a moderate-end recording system in the hands of somebody who knows what they're doing ). If you would be content with recordings of the quality you hear posted here, then get the Zoom; but if not, you may want to pursue other set-ups. For me, I decided the muffled aspect was an acceptable price to pay for eliminating the hissing and clipping I was getting with my other system.

b.) ? I don't have a technical answer to this question. I've been happy with the bass in my recordings.

c.) You can order a tripod as an accessory to the Zoom at a modest cost (about ten bucks, I think, and at some sites, it even comes included with the package; just make sure to clarify when you order). The Zoom tripod is only a few inches tall, and I've been recording by placing it right on top of the music desk. That hasn't been problematic. Putting just the Zoom itself on the piano might be, though, as I would think it might bounce itself off due to vibrations if you're playing vigorously. I'd suggest placing it on, say, a washcloth.

However, you might want to pick up a cheap camera tripod that is taller and would allow you to place the Zoom at or above rim-level.

d.) If you slog through the 9 pages of this thread, I seem to remember a couple of alternative digital recorders were discussed... but I think they were either more expensive or didn't have specs to match the Zoom.

Thanks for the answers Monica.

I skimmed through the thread pages downloading the recordings as I saw links in the posts. Some of them sounded better (higher fidelity) than others. Aside from normalizing through Audacity have you had to boost either treble or bass? I'd prefer the least manipulation of the original WAV as possible. oldcars seems to be getting some good results with the placement.

It still seems like a great bargain for all that is included.

What's a decent inexpensive camera tripod?

Keep in mind that most of the recordings on this thread were made by new Zoom owners, often in the first giddy week or even hours of getting the thing. That might explain the variable fidelity you're hearing. My recordings are noticeably better now that I've had the benefit of reading tips from everybody else and have been able to experiment.

I don't boost the bass or treble on my recordings; all I do is normalize. And it's also the case that now that I finally figured out :rolleyes: how to use the auto-gain feature on the Zoom (where you play the loudest passage of the piece while the red light is blinking), much of the time I wouldn't need to normalize at all. I only do so because I want to stick the recordings all on the same CD and don't want perceptible differences in volume going from piece to piece.

If you've already been getting good quality recordings (no hissing etc.) with your borrowed arrangement, you probably know what you're doing, unlike me, and you may find that you would get better recordings with high-quality mics and a mixer. Check out posts and recordings made by Hakki and jollyroger, both of whom I think have created better recordings than one normally gets with the Zoom. I think Hakki's setup didn't cost all that much more, either.

Hakki's setup does sound like it could produce better results, but he's going directly to computer. I don't currently own a laptop, and my desktop is on the 2nd floor. The convenience of the H4 is so attractive.

Order placed! Can't wait to give it a shot. Great thread with plenty of info to help make the decision. Thanks guys and gals.

I think the "muffled" sound quality must be due to the built-in mics or placement.

I recorded myself playing a Hanon exercise (for the Hanon challenge) last night, running an analog output from a Yamaha P90 electronic keyboard to the Zoom's two inputs.

On a decent pair of headphones, I did not notice any high-frequency roll-off or "muffled" sound. But this was a direct analog cable connection to the Zoom, not a microphone recording.

You may be able to get really good recordings by hooking up external mics to the Zoom and using an ideal placement of those mics on the piano.

I don't think the X/Y configuration of the Zoom mics is the ideal configuration for recording a piano, but I am still researching this. (I am without an acoustic piano right now, so I haven't been able to conduct any placement experiments myself.)

There are many other digital recorders, but historically they've been in the $1000+ range. There are now quite a few below $500, but most of these record to CD's. I think there are only a handful of machines under $500 that record to a memory chip.

The analogue to digital conversion hardware built into the H4 is quite good, certainly better than the quality that the built-in microphones can deliver. You can get a significant quality boost by using external microphones, as my AKG recordings demonstrate.

Another limitation that many of you may be hearing is the quality hit that you take when you convert from .WAV to .MP3. Most of the postings on this forum are .MP3's. Burn your H4 recordings to a CD and keep the files in their original .WAV format. You will experience a much better sound quality (even with the built-in microphones).

I've given out about 50 Christmas CD's so far, and demand continues! Most of my relatives have never been able to hear me play in the band, and they are delighted (to learn they're not missing much, maybe!!).

Cheers!

So what options for external microphones would people suggest? Say, something that would give a significant increase in quality, while not being too expensive or too bulky or heavy (either of which would rather miss the point of the Zoom in the first place).

Best wishes,
Matthew

I wonder if the Rode NT5 would be a good match for the Zoom H4? Has anyone tried that combo?

The Rode NT5 should work fine. Other lower end recording mic's would include the MXL Mogami Edition line (2003, 603s, V69 tube). Someone earlier mentioned the AKG line. The 414's are really common multi pattern studio mic's and the A-T 4049/4051/4053's are good as well. The Shure KSM series are yet another option. Tube mic's are some of the best for recording piano's in studio environments due to the transparency of sound.

With some of the lower end mic's resale value is not very good but with the Shure/AKG/Audio Technica/Neumann types one can always get most of the purchase price back.

The mic preamps on the H4 do not handle high SPL's very well at all so I wouldn't recommend close-mic'ing a piano unless you use an external and separate preamp setup.

In the for-what-its-worth category,
John Dutton

[Waves hand frantically, Arnold Horshack style] Um, what's "SPL"? And just how close does "close-mic'ing" entail? I've been putting my Zoom up on the music desk. Would you recommend setting it farther away?

SPL=sound pressure level. Beyond that, I'm lost, too.

--Dennis

Monica, if you play a forte chord with it on the music desk, does it peak out pretty quickly? What input level does it drop down to when the autogain is activated on a loud chord?

Er... I dunno. I just push the Red Dot, man. Would I have to be looking at it while it's recording to answer that question or could I look back at something I've already recorded?

I will say that after I started using the autogain correctly by playing a sample of the loudest part, I get a recording that's overall higher volume with no distortion.

"no distortion" is good especially if you don't have to set the gain manually. With the DAT + digital JVC mic I've been using, I have to turn the input level down to less than half if I place the microphone too close to the piano, and I'm not sure if it loses detail in the recording.

I'm not very knowledgeable on audio technology, so once I get it in the mail, I'm going to show the H4 to our sound engineer at work to see what he thinks about it. I'll borrow some XLR mics to compare quality as well.