Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum M&H, carbon fiber action and odd resonance, please weigh in

Hello all,

First, my apologies if these questions have been dealt with hundreds of times on the forum already. I do not keep up with this board as much as some of the others.

I tried out two new Mason & Hamlins the other day. B and AA. I love every Mason & Hamlin I've ever played, but had never played a new one until now. The shop only had these two, plus a whole lot of Kawais which I do not want to buy.
I didn't fall in love with either piano, but plan to keep looking, at new and older Mason & Hamlins. (A financing plan will be necessary which limits my ability to purchase used from individuals.)
According to the shop, these have a carbon fiber action. The key and the hammer are wood. Nothing else in between is.

I noticed two things about the pianos which surprised me. One was that the action felt noticeably different than on any other piano I've played. It was very smooth and I had a lot of control. A lot. At no point did the key travel faster or slower or meet with more or less resistance on the way down. It felt like a certain amount of springiness was lacking, but I could really get used to having that much control over the hammer. Is this because it was carbon fiber, or because they were new pianos, or both? (Or am I just unknowingly accustomed to pianos with cranky actions? That could be true.)

The other oddity was that there was a large difference in tone between the middle of the piano and one octave higher. The middle was pleasant and mellow. One octave higher there was suddenly a lot of resonance/ringing, to the degree where it was a little unpleasant. The ringing had a metallic quality and reminded me of the sound you get if you bump two handbells together. It happened on most of the notes in that octave so it was not a wolf tone or resonant frequency of the room. It happened on both pianos but was more pronounced on the B. I am wondering if this is again just part of the package with a new piano, or if this is an unfortunate trait found in new Mason & Hamlins.

My teacher's opinion is that all new pianos are bad.
My tech's opinion, I don't know, I haven't asked him yet, but will.

This metallic sound quality problem sounds like a voicing issue rather than an action issue. It is impossible to diagnose the cause or the cure from a distance except to say that it is more likely related to hammer hardness than anything else. Within reason, a good tech can voice a good set of hammers with varying degrees of success. This is probably the case here.

As to the action. The Wessell Nickel and Gross action is a "Composite" action. Only the hammer shanks (Which the hammers are glued to the end of) are carbon fiber tubing. The rest of the action parts are a composite off things like nylon or ABS and various fibers such as glass fibers formulated to provide mechanical properties superior to a polymer without the added fibers.

The "Carbon Fiber" tubing hammer shanks (another composite of carbon fiber and usually some variety of polymer like an epoxy resin)are extremely consistent in flexibility/stiffness combined with a very light weight which allows for more consistent touch and voicing characteristics. There are several threads on the PW concerning these parts and their potential which are independent of the info found on the WNG site if you wish more information.

Personally, I have installed 20 some complete WNG actions in the past several years. Most have been in combination with additional rebuilding services. I have yet to be disappointed in their performance.

Best of luck in your piano hunt.

Your piano teacher has a rather narrow and (probably from a bad encounter), jaundiced view of new pianos. There are good ones out there! At least that's my opinion. FWIW

My experiences with the new WNG grand actions have been that they feel different, indeed. I'm not sure if it's design, regulation, or simply being used to what I usually play on (as you mention). Many technicians rave about them, while the reaction of pianists is all over the place from "meh" to "wow".

Regarding the tone, I would suspect this is an issue of dealer prep. As I understand it, certain pianos come from the factory voiced pretty well, while others arrive almost intentionally bright, needing to be voiced down for a particular situation, and some others are the opposite. I have heard a newish B at a dealer that had just been uncrated, and it was rather brash and clangy for a small piano. Given a few hours of the dealer's time, I'm sure there was a very nice piano in there.

Your teacher's opinion is pretty odd. How often do they play new pianos, and what brands have they tried recently?

Hi Heather,

I can't help you regarding the action in the M&H as I haven't played one. I simply want to encourage you to play as many pianos as you can. There are lots of wonderful instruments out there, I'm still pining for a Steingraeber & Sohne I played at Allegro Pianos a few years back, but alas the necessary funds continues to elude me. I do wonder what your issue was with the Kawais, I've generally enjoyed them (RX2 and up). I remember being especially impressed with a Shigeru SK7. I do wish I'd looked harder at M&H when I was shopping, but that was before the switch to composite action, so it still wouldn't have helped you.

Hi Heather,

I bought a new M&H BB a couple of years ago. The hammers are from Renner. They are very hard, and require voicing (Renner expects and requires that this be done) to bring them to where you want them. M&Hs are, AFAIK, not prepared by the dealer before sale. This is good, since you have a say in the voicing process.

Google "voicing the Renner hammer". You will find much information on the Renner blue points.

Good luck in your hunt, and, if you buy a Mason &Hamlin, you will not be disappointed.

hreichgott,
Before you make a final purchase decision on any new M&H, I would hire a technician who understands structural issues like hard capo d'astro bars, (V-bar), and hard bridge pin issues. Some of the "voicing" issues you are describing could be much deeper and significant than any hammer issue. The new M&H's I have seen did not have warm, beautiful trebles. I suspect, but have not been able to verify that the type of bridge pin they use and/or v-bar condition are what is producing the negative quality I am hearing.

Otherwise they seem to be very well made and I am a fan of the action.

Where did you get that idea? Hard to imagine that any piano at that price wouldn't be prepped by a dealer. Certainly the ones I have heard have been prepped at least to some degree(prepping is not an yes or no thing).

Sorry. You are quite correct. In my haste writing, I substituted Dealer for Factory. I meant, AFAIK, the pianos are not prepped by M&H prior to delivery to the dealer. This is good, as the pianist can have some say in the prep.

Thanks for catching that rather serious error!

Not sure whether this is true either Prepping is not a yes or no thing it's always a question of degree. Certainly the pianos are tuned many times before leaving the factory, and I strongly suspect at least some regulation and voicing are done, perhaps a significant amount.

You make very good points. My information is based on some first hand, obviously, and much third hand information regarding M&H factory prep, much of here in the PW archives. There seems to be a generalized comparison of, for example, Yamaha with M&H, where a Yamaha can be uncreated, unwrapped, and a concert performed with no other action except a tuning. The M&H, on the other hand, requires voicing at the very least, in addition to the obvious tuning.

Hello hreichgott--If this will help and if I can throw in my 2 cents worth.. In 2014, I had a chance to visit the M&H factory in Haverhill, MA. They are great folks and I was very appreciative of them taking time out of their day to give me a very comprehensive tour of the factory... Outstanding folks. I saw up close and personal the WNG action and I had the privilege to play a couple of their CC's. The WNG action was very nice and smooth... I like this vs. wood swelling on a hot humid summer day.

I noticed you are located in western Massachusetts? It might be worth a trip to Haverhill to tour the factory and get a chance to see and play other M&H. Just a wild thought.

Good luck with your search!

I'm a fan of the old M&H sound but not so much of the new pianos, in part because of that metallic jangly sound I've heard consistently in the treble section.

sophial,
That is the sound I am talking about in my post just up the page.

I am a fan of the composite action. I sincerely doubt that whatever a pianist dislikes about the new M&H pianos involves the composition of the action parts.

I have rebuilt several pianos with these parts so I have been able to compare the composite action pianos that I rebuilt with ones I rebuilt with wood parts. I feel it is a pretty good A to B comparison because all the rebuilds have the same scaling principles, tone regulation protocols and workmanship. Mine. The composite ones feel, sound, wear, and stay in regulation better.

Dear Heather,
Last year I had the opportunity to import a grandpiano to Brazil, and so I travelled to USA and played about 30 different highend instruments, at 5 dealers. As a result, I now own a fabulous 2013 Mason BB, with the WNG action.
I couldn't be more excited with the instrument, including it's mellow and clear voice, througout the whole lenght of the keyboard.
Feel free to take a look at a series of youtube videos I recorded with friends giging on my piano at Mason BB in Brazil [url=][/url]
So, I agree with the above mentioned opinions, and the odd tone of the pianos you tried probably is due to bad prep.
Best wishes!

Thank you folks for sharing your wisdom.

Piano_Brazil, I am next to a sleeping child at the moment, but when I am able to use my speakers I will listen to those videos. Thanks lots.

Nice to know that many think the unpleasant metallic sound was a prep issue and I also appreciate Ed's warning about structural issues. Ed, do you have suggestions on where to read up on these parts to learn more about them, or is it better to just turn the whole thing over to a good technician?

Piano Practice, I am so glad you mentioned the possibility of touring the factory. I will call and see if it is possible. Getting to my "local" M & H dealer is a 2-hour trip which requires me to go THROUGH Haverhill, and they don't even have very much M & H inventory. Factory would be much better if there is the chance to play a lot of different new pianos.

(And Steve, I've got nothing against Kawais, they are just not my cup of tea.)

I sometimes wonder if dealers want their pianos very bright in the showroom, especially if they have carpet on the floors and acoustic tile ceilings. I suggest that if anyone is buying a new piano, to get the dealer to do an on-site finish voicing. I've found so many large grands in homes that positively scream in the treble. This may be great in a concert hall, but it is really tough on the ears in the house! Also, hammers harden up pretty fast if you play frequently. This seems especially true with Abel hammers. Joe80 has a fair bit of experience with the hammer issue on fresh rebuilds.

When/if you call the M & H factory about a tour, make sure they will have finished pianos for you to try if that is your goal. I've been on two tours of the factory. One with my piano teacher, at the end of which there were no pianos for us to try. One with Piano World, which the factory went all out with lunch and finished pianos for us to try. So, experiences were quite different.

The tour is well worth going for all by itself. I really enjoyed my visits to the factory. On the first tour they showed me the actual press that was used to make my piano's rims. They had transitioned over to new presses for the BB. So, the old ones were no longer in use. I got goose bumps thinking of the birth of my piano back in 1918!!

Here is a page which I found that is about Mason & Hamlin pianos, then and now:

http://www.pianocraft.net/brands/mason-hamlin/

I noticed something similar on a new A. For me, it was the highest notes, where they are undamped. Almost painful to listen to.

About a year ago, I tried out new Mason & Hamlins and was distraught. I had a preconception about them being fantastic going into the shop, mostly from reading too much on these forums, and I was seriously let down. I thought it must just be me, but I feel better after reading this thread.

The upper partial structure of the new Mason&Hamlins is huge. Coupled with an equivalently huge bass gives you a race car instead of a sedan. One must learn how to control it. A little touch of the accelerator and you are off. It has taken me two years to learn to control the energy of this piano. It has been worth every second. The incredible richness, sonority and sustain are beyond any piano I have experienced in over 50 years of playing, and every one of my professional pianist colleagues is blown away by the sound. They too, cannot control it at first.

Sit down at the instrument in a quiet setting. Play a simple piece. Debussy. Play it slowly. Play it as softly as you can. Listen to the sound. What more could one ask from a piano?

If you bang away at it, it will bite back. Don't bang.