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The humidity here can get to over 90% in summer (Queensland Australia), and quite low in winter (well under 40%)
I have an air conditioner but don't run it during the night, or when I am out.

the following post is what has be wondering as to the use of Dampp Chaser is a worthwhile investment or not.

In spite of claims made by BruceD above, I have empirical evidence that the the Dampp Chaser produces a very stable micro-climate for my grand piano, both below and, more especially, above. I live in Southwestern Ontario where the humidity varies just as yours. The house air conditioning keeps the RH in the 40-60% range, and the Dampp Chaser keeps the upper surface of the sound board at 45%, +\-3%. Without a whole house conditioning system, the variation at the piano would be greater, but still better than no Dampp Chaser.

Some technicians have posited that the constant cycling of the heating rods causes cellular damage in the areas of the soundboard that are proximal to the heating rods. No statistical evidence has been presented however. Considering that the Dampp Chaser system has been around for decades, there should be some empirical evidence of premature sound board failure.

There is also concern that the humidifier system causes localized swelling of the sound board. Again, no evidence has been presented.

It would be interesting to see if these claims have credence.

Interesting comments....thanks for your feedback prout

Mal

There's a possible risk in quoting very old posts. You do realize, I hope, that the quote from me was written almost 14 years ago, and that there is a caveat at the end of the post. I may have learned a few things in the interim. The information I posted was supplied to me by a technician - obviously not a Dampp-Chaser fan. That was given to me in 2000, even before that post was made!

There were some - perhaps as benighted as I - who agreed with me at the time, as you may have noticed. Did I mention that that was almost 14 years ago?

Regards,

Yep I apologize for digging up such an old post Bruce ....just thought it worthwhile to get some newer opinions

These testimonials (on the Dampp Chaser web site I might add) are of interest. It is also endorsed by some well known piano manufacturers, including Yamaha

http://www.pianolifesaver.com/english/testimonials/pianists

Looks like I will go with it, as my last C3 suffered horribly from rusted strings in the high humidity here

Mal

BruceD,

Please accept my apologies for possibly impugning your reputation. It was not my intention. I knew that the thread was old, but did not realize the possible consequences of commenting on essentially stale data.

Prout

I am not a fan of the humidifier part of the DampChaser system. It produces a localized humidity effect on the part of the soundboard nearest the tank. It does not move humidity evenly across the bottom of a grand soundboard. You can see this by carefully observing pianos where the tank has been operating for a couple of days. Look at the surface of the bottom of the soundboard along the panel joints. The areas nearest the tank will show ridges or valleys depending on grain angle there are not along the same joint-farthest away from the tank.

Wood takes on humidity about five times as fast as it gives it up. So that stacks the deck against getting an even micro-clime of higher humidity across the soundboard.

The de-humidifier system I find very useful. I install the heater rods along the sides of the beams near to the soundboard. This gets the dry air above the edge of the case and creates a little micro-clime that spreads across the entire underside of the soundboard.

I use the 50watt rods and try to put at least two if they will fit in any grand.

I charge about $250 installed depending on travel distance of course.

I've heard of installations with and with out fabric spanning the bottom of a grand. Does the fabric greatly improve the distribution of humidity, or is it still too uneven?

I don't install the fabric undercover. The construction and installation of it is at best mediocre. It looks like crap!

Interesting to see this old thread revived, 'cause I'm pleased to see that some folks agreed with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying#Equilibrium_moisture_content

Read the section I've linked to above about equilibrium moisture content (EMC), and the section directly below it that says wood in service (i.e. finished products) retains the same qualities. It says that "the EMC of wood varies with the ambient relative humidity...significantly, to a lesser degree with the temperature." The relative humidity in the room is key. Humidity "aimed" at the piano will quickly diffuse into the room around it. If the application of humidity is close enough, and constant enough, the affected area may react like Ed described above, but that's only because it "hits" its target before it dissipates. And that's worse--too high in one spot and too low in the others! Because not too far away is wood that isn't receiving the densely moisturized air. I suspect that a system correctly installed ought not be close enough to do damage, but, in either case, the vast majority of the moisture diffuses into the surrounding space. Even the moisture that does end up in the piano will be wicked back out again unless the entire room's relative humidity level increases to match the piano's. So, to the extent that they "work," it's because they raise the RH in the larger space. I know you can get a cover to help with this phenomenon, and that's why the cover helps, but the piano still is not air tight. If you increase the moisture content of the sound board from below, the moisture is going to move to and through the top, into the ambient space (until it reaches EMC).

Think about a space heater that can keep a room warm. Then take the same heater outside and it won't work as well--the heat quickly dissipates into the colder air. It's the same with humidity. And the only thing that can keep humidity "locked in" is an airtight space. No piano is air tight.

I'm skeptical of the heating application to reduce humidity too. Wood is a lousy thermal conductor. So, a part of the wood is "warmed," and the rest remains unchanged. So a little bit of wood has it's EMC adjusted, but not the whole sound board. Again, not good (imo). I would think the only thing worse than humidity fluctuations would be if the entirety of the piano is not subject to them equally. Part going up. Part going down.

A whole-house solution is best (IMO).

People's opinions on this may change over time, but the laws of nature do not...

Prout :

I appreciate your apology. Please don't worry about my reputation; these occasional contre-temps are just a part of life on the internet. No harm has been done and no feelings are hurt.

Regards,

I install an undercover on grand installations. They are not the most fun thing to install, but they can be installed so they don't look like crap.

In my experience, the undercovers make a huge difference in the effectiveness of the whole Dampp-Chaser system.

There is a firm that makes a different type of undercover, custom-made for the brand and model of piano in which you're installing a Dampp-Chaser system. These undercovers are supposed to be much easier to install, with an effective fastening system.

Barnes String Covers, LLC.

Hey Eric,

I'm going to PM you about the under cover 996 just posted. My tech was out yesterday and well, I'm going to pull the trigger and do this. That means the only thing I haven't done, climate-wise for this piano, is put it in a zip-lock bag.

Sorry to highjack..........blob

I know this is an ancient thread that's been revived, but the title is about cost, and that got me wondering because i think some of the costs I've seen posted are much higher than those listed in the older part of the thread.

What's the going rate for these systems today? For the

• humidifier
• dehumidifier (I think Ed touched on this)
• both
• with and without covers

Also, we hear predominantly about one brand. What are the alternatives?

Hi mal777 @ Gold Coast - Congratulations on your new piano. I see you've got 92% humidity at the moment - I'm Daisy Hill, where it's almost as high. I've still got the a/c on despite it being cooler outside now , but I kept the humidity down earlier in the day as the storms were rolling in. I'm much the same as you, only putting on the a/c when needed - and at night only use the bedroom a/c rather than the larger areas, and rarely use any heating. I do, though cool down with the dehumidify setting on the a/c when it is humid.

I suspect you'll find that inside the house rarely gets to the extremes of outside, unless its over a prolonged wet/dry cycle.

When I bought my previous grand 5 yrs ago, the tech insisted that it needed a DamppChaser - from memory about $1½k. When I upgraded to my Grotrian a couple of years later, that tech wasn't as concerned, but he suggested that seeing I own it, he took the D/C off the previous piano and installed it on the Grotrian. I've got a little digital humidity/temp reader inside the piano, and it's always more moderate inside the piano than the readings in the room or outside. But maybe that is because (and particularly on days of extremes) I generally don't put the lid up, but keep the piano closed unless playing, including the fallboard.

I don't know whether a D/C would help rusting strings (which could be more dependent on your location at the Gold Coast and possible salt air). But I would suggest a string cover would be more useful for rusting. I put one on the Grotrian, and the strings (and insides) are like new after 2¼ years, where I don't recollect the previous piano were as good after the same time. I've home-made a cheap string cover - it's not pretty, but I generally play with the lid closed anyway. If I'm getting a visitor (rare), I'll slip it off before they arrive. Maybe one day I'll get the real thing?

My previous previous piano - a Yamaha UX upright had no DamppChaser or equivalent, and was extremely stable in tuning and regulation, as were a few U1s and C3s that I had in various Churches & schools. Which makes me wonder how important a D/C is with Yamaha pianos.

Hey Mal,

I don't think this is a highjack as it's still on topic, so...............

I mentioned in my other post, I've done everything I possible to slow oxidation due to our proximity to ocean air. It's not possible to stop rust but so far the string cover is yielding pretty good results (my tech concurs). Additionally, you might consider adding the following service, on each visit. My tech cleans the strings of any rust deposits, so they won't get out of hand or gain a foothold. It's the very first thing he does (I think he uses a stone material, just can't think of it right now), then we blow out the innards and clean up. Only then does he start to tune and regulate.

I did follow up with Eric and he was kind enough to share a great deal of information concerning undercovers. He very convincingly made a case for their installation AND he backed it up with proof. PM me if you would like the details. I'll be posting a thread (with pix too) once the covers installed. I tune 4X a year so I'll be able to judge, in short order, the effectiveness of the cover over tuning stability.....blob

Nice to have a local here so you know how humid it is. I have 2 hygrometers, and both are reading 99% today. (the maximum they go to) I'm about 1 km from ocean, so I suspect that could be the main cause of my previous C3 suffering from rusting strings. But the high humidity would certainly add to the problem.
I'm still 50/50 about the damp chaser....so many different opinions, but the string cover might help, and be considerably cheaper!
Is it just a piece of felt or similar cut to the dimensions of the piano, and lay it directly over the frame?

Hi mal777, Here's a thread that might help, I plan to make my own string cover.

Sorry, here's the thread:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/253243/Re:%20Make%20your%20own%20string%20cover.html