Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum To re-pin, or to new-pinblock a Grotrian, that is the question..

I was considering a 1985 Grotrian 189 and had it checked out by a tech. We had a long conversation last night and he said that the piano was very well maintained, beautiful sounding, wonderful up and down weights, but would likely require a new pin block in the next five years because the pins are a little smaller than the current pin size (he said he placed his spanner over the pins and it spun around a bit, indicating the pins were a bit too small). He said that a local conservatory had a similar issue with their same model year and model Grotrian and had to have their pin block replaced. I asked him if the work could be done in Chicago, and he replied that he felt the best thing to do was to send the instrument to New York and have the work done there.

The original tech who has worked on the piano for the past 10 years (who happened to be present during the inspection) called me today and said that he called a buddy of his who has rebuilt Grotrians and discussed what my independent tech had said. They both disagreed with the independent tech and said that all that needed to be done was replace the pins and restring the piano. They said the work could be done for $1500.

The seller is asking $32,000, and I don't know how much negotiation room she has from a price perspective. I found a 2004 Bluthner 6 that is in like new condition for only $8000 more, and assuming that I like the tone, action, etc of both pianos equally, I don't know what a fair price for the Grotrian should be, in light of the work that needs to be done and that a similar quality piano that is 20 years younger is only a few thousand more.

I am approximately 80% sure that this is my last round of "Kiss, marry, or push off a cliff" - I appreciate all the advice and suggestions you have all given me and I want nothing more to post proud parent pictures of my new piano for all to see.

If the technician does not have the proper tip to tune the piano, he is not the proper person to tune it. Anyone who claims that a piano needs to be restrung because the pins are too small is not the proper person to assess whether it needs restringing.

Actually, the independent tech (who admits he is not a rebuilder by any stretch of the imagination) who said the pins are a little too small is a tech who works on the Grotrians at the local dealer. He wasn't tuning it, he was doing a pre-sale assessment. The person who suggested replacing the pins instead of the entire pin block and then restringing the instrument is the piano's original tech in response to what the Grotrian dealer's tech said.

The size of the pins is not indicative of whether it needs new pins or a new pin block. Whether or not the piano can hold a tune is the test. If it can't, then one of those avenues might be the solution. Either your tech isn't explaining it well to you, or you aren't explaining it well here. Given the budget numbers you're discussing, you should be looking for pianos that need no work.

I agree that perhaps I am not fully explaining what the tech said to me, but I am pretty much paraphrasing his exact words about the socket spinning around the pin and how a conservatory piano had the same issue and needed a new pin block. Since this sounded a little unusual to me, I thought I would come here and see if others have heard of such a thing.

I am getting a little sense of frustration with me in your post, and if I am misreading your tone I apologize. I am just a person with a medical, not a musical, background who wants to get the best possible instrument within my budget (albeit a low one, I know). I come here to learn, and I have learned quite a bit from everyone here, so I thank everyone who has enlightened me on not only a piano's purchasing process but on their manufacture, mechanical aspects, components, and much more. I realize I am not as knowledgable as everyone on this board, but with time and further study I feel I too can contribute, rather than merely passively absorb, on this forum.

Even if the pins were loose, I don't think most techs would jump right into "time for a new pin block" territory. I mean, there are a number of things that could be tried before going to that great expense and effort. Going up to a larger pin being the most obvious. Or a CA glue treatment with the existing pins. It just sounds a bit drastic.

He did give tech #2's option with the larger pins, but he said that it would hold for 20 years, not 50. I don't want to deal with rebuilding and the like when I'm on the verge of retiring...

I've personally found it risky to take the word of another person (even a qualified tech) regarding the touch and sound of a specific piano. You need to check any instrument out yourself.....and if (and only if) you fall in love with it should you have a dialog about spending additional resources on repairs.

Since you are willing to travel substantial distances to inspect the instruments you are considering, have you thought about simply going to Chicago for a couple of days to "test" different makes of pianos? A quick search on the web indicates that examples of almost ALL of the Performance Grade instruments listed in the PianoBuyer are carried by dealers in the Chicago area. You'd be amazed how quickly you can form an opinion about a specific brand when playing it next to another. Spending a couple of hours testing the various makes and sizes of grands in those showrooms could be a revelation.

I have serviced several Grotrians from the same era as the one you are posting about. "Loose" tuning pins is an issue with these pianos. I put it in quotes because the issue is a bit more complicated than friction between the pin and the hole.

The problem is the angle the pin hole is bored. The tuning pin back angle on these Grotrians is to small and it actually lets the pin work its way up out of the block as you try to tune.

That is why pin-block replacement is best-the angle of the holes can be made correctly with a new pin-block.

I still do not understand why the seller thinks a piano with a failing pin-block is worth $30K. I could find a grand piano with a failing one for you for $10k or even less!!!

Ed, thank you ever so much for your response. I don't think the seller was aware of the issue until the inspection yesterday. I appreciate your thorough response which explains a bit more in detail what the tech was trying to tell me. I guess he doesn't need a smaller tuning wrench as a previous poster suggested after all!

Edited to add that the rather abrasive post by another poster has been deleted so my tuning wrench response here to his/her comment may seem a little odd...

Your recommendation is spot on, but travel for me is a bit difficult because I have two young children. My problem is that I really only have two days to follow a lead and one piano is 5 hours away and the other is 8 hours. I needed to rule one out and follow up on the other one so that if needed I could try out various makes at a dealer in that same town. My hometown doesn't have a European instrument presence so my one trip to either Chicago or The East Coast would have to do double duty. Now I can comfortably book my trip to the East Coast to try a dealer there and follow up on the Bluthner.

BP- I can certainly understand and appreciate your dilemma - both in terms of family obligations and geographic isolation. While I've had the advantage of living in two large metropolitan areas during the past 30 years, I've also lived in mid-sized cities and small towns in the midwest where access to new pianos (of European, American, or Asian origin) was limited if not non-existent. It can be very frustrating. I would encourage you to take your time, however, even if it requires drawing the process out a bit longer to find the right piano. Over the next few weeks you might be surprised what new "possibilities" suddenly surface. I look forward to following your progress.

Whatever the details of this piano's problem... cross it off the list and move on. It's way to expensive for any of these potential problems.

I agree with another poster that you need to go play every piano brand you think you might like when you make your pilgrimage to a city with multiple brands available. You may find yourself quite surprised by the action and tone of the various manufacturers. Inasmuch as much as possible, measure twice and cut once. If it takes time, take it.

The restringing / re-pinning estimate seems real low. I had new strings and block done on a grand piano, and that work was close to $10K in 2007. I think that "$1,500" estimate is missing a zero. The majority of this cost is in labor; restringing a grand piano is at least a day or two of work for two piano technicians. I would think that restringing with new pins but the old block would still cost several thousand. Getting a new set of bass strings fabricated takes time and by itself is likely more than $1,000 for the materials.

No piano needing that major of a restoration should sell for $30K. I agree with the others - look for something else.

But if you get into this piano, I'd actually advise having the rebuild work done in Chicago rather than New York. The cost of living is lower there, and you'll likely get a lower overall bill from a piano restorer in the Midwest rather than NYC. Rebuild in Chicago, ship to New York, and then enjoy...

Oh, and I think a $32K-$40K budget is pretty generous, and could buy a new or near-new grand piano that doesn't require major work. I don't know anybody who has spent that sum on a piano, so getting a real nice one should be very do-able in that price range.

Yikes 10K for just strings/block and pins?

I, too, thought my budget reasonable until people (posters here, a broker that I almost worked with, dealers) said that with the exception of an Estonia, I couldn't get a premier grade piano within that budget. Granted, I was dreaming about Grotrian, Bluthner, Bechsteins, Bosies, and obviously getting quite disappointed because there were very few of that caliber in my price range that were in great shape or weren't one chord away from a rebuild.

With that budget in mind I walked into my local dealer today and tried a new Mason & Hamlin AA and a freshly uncrated Shigeru Kawai SK3 (both which fit into my budget, surprisingly). Didn't love them at all. I then tried a 1890-ish C. Bechstein that had a moderate rebuild and LOVED the tone. I didn't love the action and I didn't really feel that the rebuild was all that great, but it just reiterated how much I wanted a European instrument. I am really, really, really hoping that this Bluthner works out because, well...just because!

I'm assuming the "abrasive" post was mine.

Forgive me for trying to discourage you from making an expensive mistake. I deleted it because--based on your posts--I was apparently giving bad advice based on your admitted miscommunication. Ironically, BDB--who's one of the most respected technicians on PW, at least in my opinion--drew the same conclusion about the tuning wrench sizes.

Ed, another highly respected technician, posted within a minute of me, and reading between the lines managed to identify a known issue from which some Grotrians have suffered. When I refreshed the page and saw his comments, and your followup, I decided to delete mine because a number of things occurred to me.

First, I thought it odd that Ed could put his finger right on the problem after reading only a few paragraphs, yet you couldn't correctly describe it even after having "a long conversation" with the technician and "pretty much paraphrasing his exact words."

Also, you've hired a technician, but apparently don't trust him, because you're listening to the other conflicting techs as well. The pre-sales technician... The independent technician... The Grotrian technician... The buddy technician... The conservatory technician... I lost track of all the technicians whose opinions all conflict, but since something "sounded a little unusual" to you, you came here to "see if others have heard of such a thing." Now you've started multiple threads about this piano, to double-check, but what "thing" are you double-checking? The thing you're miscommunicating?

So, you're here "checking," but you're getting bad feedback because your descriptions are wrong. And you're gratuitously thanking the people who say what you want to hear, and seem to be disregarding the advice of people who are responding to what you post (as opposed to what you mistakenly think you are "exactly paraphrasing"). But that feedback is admittedly wrong, because the info it was based on is wrong...

Then, I realized that you haven't posted that the pins are lose, or won't hold a tune. Only that it might need a new pin block five years down the road. And you're concerned that at least one of the proposed solutions (to a problem that might arise) might not last 20 years. All on a piano that you might buy. It's all too conjectural for me. I won't even go into the obvious inaccuracies about the prices you're quoting...

The last thing I realized is that this Grotrian is only one of the several pianos you've started threads about.

I decided to edit my post, since some of the advice was ill-conceived, and Ed's seemed to be on the money, and I didn't want to distract from it. But then, given the series of little epiphanies I've noted above, I decided it just wasn't worth the effort, and deleted it. I think the overarching point in my post was valid: you should forget about this piano, and that it's too expensive. Those points seem to be unanimous.

I'll leave you with this advice: you hire your own tech so you get an unbiased opinion that you can trust. So listen to the guy you've hired, and quit listening to the ones who don't necessarily have your best interests in mind.

Anyway, I'm gonna bow out of the discussion, but I genuinely wish you well in your search. I hope you find a great piano.

Yes, the abrasive post I was referring to was indeed yours. You have made very valid points in your last post, but in my defense I do feel the need to address other points.

1. Yes, I communicated the issue poorly because my conversation with the independent tech was late at night and a lot of the terminology and components are new to me. If you have the ability to learn something new with a modicum of complexity, I tip my hat to you.

2. I only hired one tech, who I may have saddled with multiple monikers, including "independent," "pre-sale" and "the Grotrian tech." I had initially heeded his advice after our post-inspection conversation, but the piano's original tech called me the next evening (after I had already resolved to move on to other pianos) and muddied the waters a bit. I admit that I was a little swayed by his assurance that the piano could be repaired simply by changing the pins and restringing. Again, the mechanics of a piano and the different components are new to me, so like many newbies, I got confused. As competent as my independent tech is, Ed described the issue far more eloquently than my tech did and I understood the matter as soon as I read the post and also was reminded that the pins were loose.

3. I didn't realize it is verboten to start multiple threads- I assumed that though many techs come to the piano forum, I might be able to cast a wider net in the forum for techs, which happens to be called "Piano Tuner- technicians forum." If it is bad form to do what I did, I sincerely apologize. I am also relatively new to these forums (although I registered in 2011 I have not really been here until recently). The reason for the multiple piano maker threads was simply because I assumed some people search for/respond only to threads with particular makers and I thought that I could use any and all information offered.

4. By no means was I thanking people who were saying what I "wanted to hear" nor was I ignoring the advice of others. All advice was readily taken and most welcome. I had tried to reply to your deleted post to even thank you for what you had to say, but I had added that your use of name calling (sucker, naive) only demeaned the quality of the advice you gave me. You deleted your post before I hit the submit button. Based on everyone's advice, yours included, I decided not to work with a broker, I eliminated the Grotrian from my search, and I am going out of town to try pianos at a dealer and the private sale instrument that I finally decided on. If that is "gratuitous" thanks, then please accept my sincere thanks in its stead.

5. Please don't blame me for the "inaccuracies on the pricing." Those are the prices I was told and those were the prices that I put in my post.