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#2377275 - 01/23/15 06:36 PM Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Hi,

I've just bought a Kawai CS7 which I'm absolutely delighted with. I had piano lessons as a teen then switched to guitar and I am just now getting back into piano. So I got hold of some sheet music for a piece that I learnt and enjoyed playing when I was doing lessons, Gymnopedie No 1 by Erik Satie. With some practice I can now play it as well as I could back then!

I have a question though about the behaviour of the sustain pedal. In measures 9-12 and 48-51, there is an F# on the right hand that is meant to be sustained for four measures while the left hand Bm and F#m chords continue (both including that same F#). What I want is to play the F# forte as written but the chords a bit softer, so I'm keeping the initial F# held down with my right hand while I lift the pedal for the F#m chord but when I do that the F# stops sounding even though I still have it held down. Now I know on a real piano when I lift the pedal the dampers will return to the strings but surely if a key is held down then the damper for that key will stay up and the note will continue to sound?

Is this normal behaviour?

Thanks

Dan

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#2377281 - 01/23/15 06:49 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
Jytte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 391
Loc: presently Germany (Danish)
No. A key held down should sound, no matter what you do to the pedal.
_________________________
I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today -
and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for the invention of headphones.

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#2377283 - 01/23/15 06:51 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Hmm, I thought so... Is this a common problem with digital pianos?

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#2377284 - 01/23/15 06:53 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
Jytte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 391
Loc: presently Germany (Danish)
You'd have to wait for the experienced crowd to join in. I've just go mine, but I can't imagine such a problem being 'common'. How long have you had the piano?
_________________________
I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today -
and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for the invention of headphones.

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#2377286 - 01/23/15 06:56 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Only a few days

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#2377287 - 01/23/15 06:57 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4454
Loc: Northern NJ
Kawai DPs typically fail the silent replay portion of the DPBSD test. In the silent replay test a note is played and held, then the pedal is pressed and held, then the key is lifted, then the same key is played softly and held, and finally the pedal is lifted. The note should play all the way through, but all Kawai DPs that I've tested fail at the final pedal lift, where the note damps even though the key is being held down.

What you are describing may be a worse failure scenario. Could you describe it more in terms of the events above?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
ĦIMO!

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#2377288 - 01/23/15 06:57 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
Jytte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 391
Loc: presently Germany (Danish)
Now, if you have already sounded that note 'for a while' it could already be faded?
_________________________
I pray, that tomorrow I may strive to be a little better than I am today -
and, on behalf of everybody else, I give thanks for the invention of headphones.

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#2377292 - 01/23/15 07:07 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: Jytte]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: Jytte
Now, if you have already sounded that note 'for a while' it could already be faded?


Unfortunately no; there's a noticeable and jarring discontinuity when the note switches off...

I notice that I don't get the same behaviour playing through Pianoteq, so it must be to do with the sound generation in the Kawai rather than the MIDI event handling.

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#2377296 - 01/23/15 07:15 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: dewster]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: dewster
Kawai DPs typically fail the silent replay portion of the DPBSD test. In the silent replay test a note is played and held, then the pedal is pressed and held, then the key is lifted, then the same key is played softly and held, and finally the pedal is lifted. The note should play all the way through, but all Kawai DPs that I've tested fail at the final pedal lift, where the note damps even though the key is being held down.

What you are describing may be a worse failure scenario. Could you describe it more in terms of the events above?


That's basically what's happening when I play Gymnopedie; I hit the F#, press the pedal, play the F# again more softly as part of the Bm chord (at this point the loud initial F# is still sounding, along with the softer one) then when I release the pedal to play the low D in the left hand the sound of the F# stops very abruptly. I get the same thing if I try the silent replay test on a single note as you've described.

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#2377297 - 01/23/15 07:22 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9864
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
soundsystem, this could be a bug in the CS7's internal tone generator. May I recommend that you report this issue to your Kawai distributor (e.g. Kawai America) to allow them to investigate.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2377301 - 01/23/15 07:33 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Okay, if I play the first F# and keep it held, but then only play the B and D of the Bm chord, the note continues to sound when I lift the sustain pedal - so it appears the problem is just the silent replay issue and nothing further.

James, should I report the issue to the shop I bought the piano from or directly to Kawai (I'm based in the UK so I guess it would be Kawai Europe?)

It does sound like a known issue with some DPs so I imagine it wouldn't be something that could easily be fixed in my particular piano?

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#2377324 - 01/23/15 08:11 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9864
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
soundsystem, as dewster notes, the CS7 does not support this 'silent replay' characteristic. We are aware of this point, however I'm not sure if a decision has been made on whether it will be implemented on the CS series.

Please do contact Kawai UK/Kawai Europe to make your feelings known. I shall also check the situation with R&D.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2377325 - 01/23/15 08:13 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4454
Loc: Northern NJ
Soundsystem, I would bet that all Kawai DPs do this - best of luck in getting some corrective action on it. And thanks for bringing your experience with this issue to the general attention of PW readers.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
ĦIMO!

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#2377333 - 01/23/15 08:30 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Okay. I've emailed Kawai describing the problem (and included a link to this thread) and suggested it should be fixed in a firmware update.

It's something I can live with, given that I much preferred the Kawai's action and sound over other DPs I tried in the same price range, and the fact that I can get around it by using Pianoteq and possibly other software pianos.

Really I am quite surprised that Kawai and other DP manufacturers don't 'support this characteristic' when it's such a fundamental part of how an acoustic piano operates, especially when every other aspect is simulated in such detail.

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread for your advice.

Dan

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#2377346 - 01/23/15 09:21 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5741
Originally Posted By: soundsystem

Really I am quite surprised that Kawai and other DP manufacturers don't 'support this characteristic' when it's such a fundamental part of how an acoustic piano operates, especially when every other aspect is simulated in such detail.

I'd be interested to know which other manufacturers don't include this feature.

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2377630 - Yesterday at 04:01 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 593
Loc: UK
Not to excuse the behaviour of the instrument, but the chords in the left hand are marked forte in the score, while the held F# is presumably still pp. So it shouldn't really be possible to hear the first F# cutting out since that note has been re-struck at higher volume. It's only if you play the chords more quietly that you'd hear this.

More problematic for me is how the sound gets louder when you press the damper pedal with notes held down. Instead of applying damper resonance to each note that is struck while the pedal is down, a filter is applied to all the sound output, with the effect of making existing sustained notes louder. Have you noticed that? I bet it's still the same in the new models.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2377719 - Yesterday at 06:53 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
chickenlump Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 60
Loc: Canada
Does the CS series have a different firmware to the CA series? I thought they were the same except in different cabinets.

I just tried this myself on my CA95 and I can't recreate the error. My key continues to play with sustain release.

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#2377725 - Yesterday at 07:15 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: soundsystem]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 593
Loc: UK
It happens on my CA95.
1. Hold sustain
2. Play a note ff
3. Play the same note pp and hold it
4. Release sustain. The ff note cuts out
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2377771 - Yesterday at 10:09 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: lolatu]
chickenlump Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/12
Posts: 60
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: lolatu
It happens on my CA95.
1. Hold sustain
2. Play a note ff
3. Play the same note pp and hold it
4. Release sustain. The ff note cuts out


Yes, that happens to me as well, although (thankfully the times when that would affect something in a practical sense is rare)

What i interpreted the OP to mean was that the note cut off without releasing the key.
ie. 1. hold sustain 2. play note 3. hold note 4. release sustain - note cuts off. Did i interpret this wrong?

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#2377959 - Today at 12:44 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: lolatu]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Not to excuse the behaviour of the instrument, but the chords in the left hand are marked forte in the score, while the held F# is presumably still pp. So it shouldn't really be possible to hear the first F# cutting out since that note has been re-struck at higher volume. It's only if you play the chords more quietly that you'd hear this.

More problematic for me is how the sound gets louder when you press the damper pedal with notes held down. Instead of applying damper resonance to each note that is struck while the pedal is down, a filter is applied to all the sound output, with the effect of making existing sustained notes louder. Have you noticed that? I bet it's still the same in the new models.


On my copy of the sheet music the forte symbol is right in the middle between the staves. I suppose it really means everything should be forte at that point, but I'm fairly sure the way I'm doing it was they way I was taught (admittedly nearly 20 years ago!) To me it sounds better keeping the chords a bit softer.

EDIT: Actually have just tried playing the chords forte as well, and it can sound okay, as long as it's not so much louder that it sounds jarring. I may have just been thinking about my (possibly imperfect) memory of being taught to play the RH F# noticeably louder!

I had noticed the effect you mention, although only with damper resonance set to above 5 in the virtual technician. I knew it was to do with damper resonance but I hadn't really thought through whether it was correct behaviour or not.


Edited by soundsystem (Today at 12:54 PM)

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#2377962 - Today at 12:50 PM Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: chickenlump]
soundsystem Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: chickenlump
Originally Posted By: lolatu
It happens on my CA95.
1. Hold sustain
2. Play a note ff
3. Play the same note pp and hold it
4. Release sustain. The ff note cuts out


Yes, that happens to me as well, although (thankfully the times when that would affect something in a practical sense is rare)

What i interpreted the OP to mean was that the note cut off without releasing the key.
ie. 1. hold sustain 2. play note 3. hold note 4. release sustain - note cuts off. Did i interpret this wrong?


My first post maybe wasn't very clear so could have been taken to mean what you thought. I meant what lolatu said. I did clarify in a later post.


Edited by soundsystem (Today at 12:50 PM)

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#2378036 - 2 minutes 8 seconds ago Re: Sustain pedal behaviour - Kawai CS7 [Re: Kawai James]
kapelli Online   shocked
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 459
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
soundsystem, as dewster notes, the CS7 does not support this 'silent replay' characteristic. We are aware of this point, however I'm not sure if a decision has been made on whether it will be implemented on the CS series.

Please do contact Kawai UK/Kawai Europe to make your feelings known. I shall also check the situation with R&D.

Kind regards,
James
x


James,

Is this problem solved with the new CA series?

And, I also second bennevis questions which other pianos / piano series fails this test.

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