Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Truecrypt's take on Chopin's Barcarolle

Hi all,

Just want to point out that I haven't seen any invalid criticisms on this thread, merely some with which I have a different opinion, and I appreciate that the discourse has been so civil and well reasoned. Also, I think the fact that the performance engenders such discussion merely affirms its worth as I find little value in renditions where the performer is overly concerned with playing it safe, offending the least, and following the strictures of pedantry and vogue at the cost of sincere individualistic expression.



For me, it doesn't come across as distinctly "Russian" at all. The only Russian that it reminds me of is perhaps Sofronitsky, who I think isn't representative of Russian playing but rather more reminiscent of the style of Cortot, with whom I believe he briefly studied.

For it to sound Russian, I would have expected much more force and drive in the climax, and to be honest I was initially a bit underwhelmed in that section. But in hindsight it feels perfectly in line with the scope of the rendition and a decision which struck me as tasteful and, dare I say it, aristocratic. Also, it should be noted that for me to be underwhelmed speaks more about how I've been conditioned to hear the piece from the many recordings I've heard that emphasize the "big finish."

i'm no Chopin expert either; and thank you for exemplifying the moral of the story hakki!

I thought this was beautifully played (slight shame about the piano!). At no time did I think there were excessive liberties taken with the timing - it was right on the edge in the Meno mosso section, but I realised it was very effectively creating an analogy with a heartbeat (much as can be done in the first page of the 1st Ballade).

Overall I was most impressed with the way the inner voices were brought out. One day...

Thanks for putting it that way. I'd never heard that before. It might help me make sense of something where I've never felt comfortable that I had any real idea what was going on.

No, no, no!!

I just felt to jump in to correct a big misinterpretation.
These measures are actually intended to prepare for the coming "dolce sfagato".

Well sure -- but what are they? How should we view them besides that broad general thing, and what's the deal with those staccato chords, and are they really supposed to 'sound' staccato (as opposed to being pedaled-through), and if so, how staccato?

From hearing different performances of the piece, it's clear that there's no consensus on it, not even an approximate consensus, and besides that, I would offer that most interpretations of this section (especially those staccato chords) seem not just unconvincing but unclear in the minds of the performers. Chris's post helps me feel like I finally, finally have a handle on it. It feels right -- and I'm going to utilize it.

Let me add also, in some kinds of pieces or passages I find images like that to be far more helpful than plain musical instructions. For example, it wouldn't be at all helpful to me if someone answered those questions in pure technical or mechanical terms, like, "Yes, those chords should be staccato but not extremely short -- listen to me playing it [goes to play it] ....You see, something like that"; or "No, not really staccato, you should pedal them, like this....." or whatever. With something like this, I need to have some feel for what's going on in a more basic way. I don't mean that there's necessarily one "true" image for this passage or any other, but I do need something that makes sense to me -- and this does. Nothing before ever did, in terms of any mental model to help me play the section with conviction.

By the way: I LOVE what Truecrypt does with this section and with those chords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alaLgb0zABs&list=RDalaLgb0zABs#t=2

A proper interpretation of those bars.

What are they? They are both related to the previous few measures and the coming dolce sfagato. They are tender words for a loved one.

Oh about the heart beats.
I just remembered the final scenes of King Kong.(or maybe Godzilla)

Glad to help Mark.

I'm no expert pianist, but I've certainly found as you say that sometimes a mental analogy helps with playing something. The "heartbeat" may not fit in with one's own personal story behind a piece (and I'm a great believer in having one), but it certainly helped me with the mezzo staccato section at the beginning of the Ballade.

I have to disagree with Hakki's principle of an interpretation being "wrong". With such "perfection" in recordings now from professional pianists, being able to add your own interpretation and perhaps take more liberties than recording artists is surely one of the areas where we amateur pianists can excel!

Truecrypt's interpretation of these measures is as wrong as it could be to roll Chopin in his grave.

In general, his interpretation of this piece belongs to early last or late 19th century, when concert pianists regarded themselves above composers.

I wouldn't presume to be able to ascertain Truecrypt's—or anybody's—attitude regarding their status in relation to the composer whose work they are playing, though I would be surprised if in his case this were true.

That notwithstanding, I fully agree with you that this approach feels very much of a spirit of the time you mentioned. This is largely what I like so much about it. I understand it's not for everyone, though. There's a reason that style of play went out of fashion. But what can I say; I'm a romantic at heart.

Not necessarily a good reason ....and to tell the truth, I don't know what that reason would have been, other than the simple general thing that ideas change as time goes on. It's not necessarily always for the better.


Sounds pretty good to me.

Although this is mainly a reply to Mark_C, I would first like to say to Vica that I liked your performance very much, and I agree with you about the rhythm of the piece being, or needing to be, ALIVE. I remember reading that Chopin's sister once wrote him a letter where she rather meekly apologized that she had played a mazurka of his for guests to dance to (her emphasis), which shows quite clearly that he regarded his mazurkas as art pieces based on the mazurka style, rather than mazurkas one would dance to. As for the mazurkas, so for the barcarolle?

Mark - I'm not sure what edition you are using, but all the first editions show staccato only in the octaves played by the LH, not the accompaniment part played by the RH: Chopin's First Editions Online. The biggest clue to me is that with each little group/phrase of four accompanying chords (apart from the first one in the German edition), the RH ends with a quarter note while the LH at the same time has the staccato eighth note octave. Long story short, I'm fairly sure that those parts of the accompaniment are somewhat independent, touchwise, and I'm not sure from your post if you seem them that way.

My understanding of the piece as a whole is that there is not much that could be said to be relaxed or serene: there is almost throughout an undercurrent of what could be variously described as restlessness, unease, yearning, longing, angst, heartache, or something along those lines, depending on how the piece grabs you. So the context of this passage is that we are coming to the one relatively brief moment of peace/relaxation/serenity, which is transitioned to via throbbing/pulsating/heartbeat-like detached bass octaves, coalescing into a more "unified" accompaniment where the octaves are no longer detached, through to the silky smoothness of the gliding four part harmonies without octaves, and then comes the airy/peaceful/consoling/contented/daydream-like section. The melody, the harmonies, and the textural shift just described all contribute to this shift in mood.

Although the pedal markings are woefully inconsistent within and between the first editions, each of which was based on a different autograph, the gist is that each mini-phrase of the accompaniment is pedaled from the end of one to the beginning of the next. My vote is for only slight detachment of the octaves at the beginning, enough to convey the restlessness of the previous section via what you and Chris feel as a heartbeat, and then gradually easing and relaxing into the dolce sfogato section.

If I could change one thing about Vica's performance, it's the very ending, the way he holds back. For me it has too much finality to it, if that makes any sense! Yes, finality to a piece is good in the sense that it has clearly ended, but I think the ending is more effective if the outcome is more in doubt: peaceful or not, happy or sad, or whatever, and I think that's better achieved, and will stay longer with listeners, with a more urgent final pair of declamations.

I don't -- but then again, I may have never realized that the staccato was only on the LH octaves; I certainly wasn't remembering it now.

You're making me realize I need to go back to it another additional time.

I thought I 'had it' from what Chris said -- and I suspect that when all is said and done, that will still be it for me, because I think those 'staccato' LH octaves set the main tone of those chords, and even if the only "staccato dilemma" with those chords is about the left hand, it's still a debate/dilemma, I think it's still essentially the same issue that I feel isn't solved well in most performances, and I think there's a high chance that Chris's "heartbeat" image will still feel right to me.

But yes -- I've got to look at it and see what I make of the right hand chords being indicated differently, as you note -- without staccato, and with the RH groups ending with quarter notes. Thank you for noting all of it as you did.


We see it very differently, although.....


.....I agree!!


.....which I call the Chopinest (i.e. Chopin-est) music that Chopin ever wrote. But, I don't see it as the one relatively brief moment of peace/relaxation. Yes, different from and set apart from the rest, but.....in other ways. (Don't have the words for it right now. Oh OK......."dolce sfogato.")


Very beautifully said -- which I can easily say even though I see some of it differently, regarding the natures of the parts and how they relate. Let me put it this way: we're on the same page, but in somewhat different fonts.



Would love to hear you play it!

(I don't mean that as a challenge! Just an expression of interest.)


Again, very beautifully said -- although I feel some of it quite differently. I feel the ending as one with no doubt -- albeit just a 'no doubt' ending to a chapter. But it's a chapter that leaves one feeling settled and complete -- or anyway, as settled and complete as the actual world ever is.

although, in a discussion about score details, i'm in way over my head (pun intended), i'm surprised no one has discussed whether they think truecrypt's rendition is true to the spirit & style of the barcarolle, the venetian gondoliers' folk song. i would assume (unless proven otherwise) that chopin used this as his muse, and vica more than hints at this when he refers to the essential fluidity required to bring a barcarola to life (the rhythm of the gondoliers' stroke, rubato by its very nature). and romantic; nostalgic & sentimental with repose as one glides along a canal, perhaps serenaded with santa lucia (if you've ever been to venice you know this feeling). for me, vica's rendition captures this spirit, and i find myself coming back to listen to it time and time again.

thoughts?