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#2380489 - Today at 01:43 PM Uninspired by my MP11
Markarian Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 536
Loc: Seattle Area
Hey all,

So I will admit off the bat that I haven't scoured every single one of the quite numerous MP11 threads on here, though I have contributed to quite a few. I will also admit that going between a Steinway B (downstairs) and the MP11 (upstairs) is kind of like going from an ocean to admittedly nice Olympic swimming pool.

I really love the action of my MP11. It's the best I've ever seen any digital, end of story. But I have to say the sound is one of the thinnest, most boring, uninspiring piano samples I've heard in years. My Korg SV-1 (2009) made my heart soar with its default acoustic piano patch more than the MP11 even after an hour of tweaking. The Roland RD-800 sounds better. The Yamaha CP-4 sounds better (though not by much). The Nord Stage 2 sounds better. I kind of expected to get the deep, moody sound of a Shigeru Kawai when I turned it on, but instead it just sounds flat and generic.

So I need a straight answer from those of you who have this instrument. I've seen endless threads where this question is obliquely asked and suggestions are made. But are we just fooling ourselves and is Kawai indeed, missing the mark when it comes to the onboard samples? Should I stop griping and fire up Kontakt every time I want to sit down and play (and not blow the neighbors away)? Or is there a thread I missed where people have solved the problem by tweaking the magic setting that makes the piano sound good? Is there a place where we can share settings files or patches we've tweaked?

I really want to love my MP11, but when I turn it on and play, all I usually hear is just "meh."
_________________________
2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Korg Kross 61

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#2380515 - Today at 02:34 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Markarian -

I've got an MP7, so while your MP11 has a nicely improved world class action, I believe the sounds for piano are otherwise identical between the two models. I also have an acoustic grand downstairs (Boston, not Steinway!) but I tend to agree with you that while the "out-of-the-box" grand piano sounds on the MP keyboards are ok, they're not instantly "WOW!" ... and yes I believe that, for me, tweaking to taste is both required and part of the enjoyment too.

(Frankly I've never had a sampled or modeled sound of any genre, keyboard, wind, strings, etc.) that didn't need to be tweaked to my taste. Ever. So I tend to regard that as part of the deal ;-)

I too wish there were a well-established forum for exchanging setups/sounds so we could learn more easily from each other, but to be fair it's really not all that hard to tweak. And what's more, everyone's own personal taste, headphones, amp/speakers, accompaniment mix, mood, etc., will vary from player to player... so it's best to get familiar with how to adjust things on your own anyhow.

For me, I've found that a really nice "grand" sound for the particular headphones I tend to use is achieved by taking the Concert Grand (1-1-A voice on the MP7) and doing the following:

1. Pulling both the low-end and the high-end on the EQ up to about +3 or +4 while leaving the midrange about flat.

2. Using EFX1 for "Filter" with "Enhancer" type, with a DryWet setting about 127 and a Depth of about 25 or so.

3. I add a touch to REVERB, I like "Small Hall" with a 1.6ms PreDelay, Time of 2235ms and a Depth of about 40

These settings are stored to my SETUP #1-1-A with a personalized name for me. Sometimes when using ear buds instead of over-the-ear headphones I find I need to adjust accordingly and I might just setup another "SETUP" storage for the occasion.

Of course if you're comparing to a Steinway acoustic you'll want to spend time with the Virtual Technician feature for sure. I've pushed a few of the parameters a tad higher from midpoint of 5 to 6,7 or even 8 (i.e., StringReso and DamperReso and KeyOffEff, even DamperNois - while keeping to Topboard wide open @ "Open3". All of these tend to bring out a bit more of the acoustic sound/feel without overdoing things to the point of distraction.

I hope some of this helps. When I switch back to the plain old 1-1-A Piano SOUND preset "Concert Grand" it immediately sounds flat and - as you say "meh" - by comparison. In fact, I'm likely to just save my favorite settings above to the SOUND preset 1-1-A (instead of the SETUP 1-1-A) for convenience. That's one of the cool features of the MP series is that you can change all of the "presets" too (not just "user" banks like on most digital equipment).

Finally, since I've got your attention (and maybe someone at Kawai too), I'll also add my little rant about the metronome .. why the timing of the metronome changes with each individual voice is a truly ridiculous annoyance and I'm left constantly changing my Hanon and other practice timings each and every time I switch a voice ... increasingly annoying. I keep my interest level up by playing scales, arpeggios, Hanon, jazz comp changes, etc. on piano, organ, EP, harpsichord, vibes, ... so I'm constantly switching around the sounds and the metronome timing I'm using that day must be changed again every time. Highly irritating. But hey, I digress ;-)

Let us know if any of these or other "tweaks" you discover on your own make a difference for you.

Best wishes for your enhanced MP11 enjoyment! - OneWatt

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#2380520 - Today at 02:45 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 180
Loc: Austria, EU
I have the same issues with my Kawai MP7, written and winged about at many occasions.
For me and especially with my headphones the Concert Grand is too bright around F#5, also having some annoying artifacts in the sound. With the Mellow Grand I could neigther get accustomed.
I also have test played several Kawai acoustics, and could not relate the sound of those, to what I hear from the MP7 Concert Grand sound in the range of F#5.

The modding of the Concert Grand Sound I tried was
1.) using the Virtual Technician, to make it sound more agreeable. But the changes with the Virtual Technician just made it sound as if you would throw one or more thick blankets over the piano.

2.)Only later I discovered and slighty reduced the CutOff Filter, Filter Resonance and DCF Attack Level (Edit-Sound-Menu) which helped to reduce those disturbing high frequencies. But using the CutOff in conjunction with the piano sound unveiled a bug in v1.05 (MP7), which made the tones break through the filter irregularly. The fix to this bug in v1.10 is more of a workaround, but better than nothing and good enough for me at the moment.

BTW: Anyone knows where to find better documentation about all those DCA/DCF/CutOff parameter and their interactions?

Firmware v1.10:
I am not sure, but I believe, the sound of the CG around F#5 got a tiny little bit better with the new firmware v1.10 . What do your ears tell you about this?
- - -

In the end, all those hassles would not have been necessary, if the primary piano sound would be more pleasant.

Therefore please support the request to local Kawai support representatives, that MP11 and MP7 owners could get an upgrade to the new pianos samples of the Shigeru EX and the SK-5, which have been announced for the CA67 and CA69.
Beforehand I dare to give those new samples some advance praise - unheard.
Additionally a properly recorded piano sample in Mono would be great too.

So long
Lo PHi

PS:

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#2380527 - Today at 02:58 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
pianomike Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 62
Hi Markian, well its not a steinway but its the nicest playing and sounding digital that Ive owned. Steinways are one of my favorite sounding pianos, so when I edit and tweek the kawai I try to get it as close to a steinway as possible.I also own a roland 700 gx with the super natural piano sounds in it and a nord ex with a Yamaha and bosendorf samples in it.The speakers you are playing through also have a lot to do with the sound your getting from your piano. I know if I play through a different set of speakers I have to re tweek the sound. I use it for practice and run it through a set roland cm 30 6.5 inch speakers that are very clear sounding,I also turn the brightness down and put the lid down to 1,but that's with the roland speakers. Hope that helps. Ps.also use the heavy and some times extra heavy touch setting to get a darker sound out of the piano.

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#2380531 - Today at 03:08 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: lophiomys]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By: lophiomys
I have the same issues with my Kawai MP7, written and winged about at many occasions.
For me and especially with my headphones the Concert Grand is too bright around F#5, also having some annoying artifacts in the sound. With the Mellow Grand I could neigther get accustomed.
I also have test played several Kawai acoustics, and could not relate the sound of those, to what I hear from the MP7 Concert Grand sound in the range of F#5....
So long
Lo PHi


Lo PHi - I really don't want to risk hijacking this thread, so perhaps we can start a new one for the occasion, but I wanted to let you know I've tried very hard to produce an "odd" sound from the F#5 on my MP7 and I can't recreate anything that's different from the surrounding notes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting that you're hearing what you're hearing, but is it fair to ask whether you've switched out headphones, monitors, whatever?

Also, have you tried recording the sound of the F#5 along with surrounding notes on the built-in mp3 feature and playing it back on a different sound system?

That particular F# may just be a very specific note that is resonating with your particular setup - and it's not necessarily inherent in the sample itself.

Again, not to ignore your issue, but FWIW I don't seem to have the same experience happening with my particular home studio setup.

- OneWatt

ps - One other possibility would be to view the wave profile of the F#5 note in a graphic program like Audacity - zoom in really close - and see if you find evidence of these resonating artifcats in the sample itself (vs the environment in which you're playing it). If your wave graphic looks different than surropunding notes, or different from ones from a different MP7 keyboard, you may have the proof that you've got a defective sample in the mix somehow.


Edited by OneWatt (Today at 03:48 PM)
Edit Reason: Added a p.s.

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#2380547 - Today at 04:04 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
Frédéric L Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/13
Posts: 139
Loc: France
It maybe the time to use virtual piano on a PC. You could then reuse the MP11 action with another sound (as I do with a Clavinova bought in 2003)

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#2380557 - Today at 04:26 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 180
Loc: Austria, EU
OneWatt,
no problem, it seems to be in the sample, as I heard it on an MP11 too, and less intense on an CA65, but did not hear it in any Kawai acoustic, nor in my old mono Roland RD-500. My reference are new Beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro headphones, of which I was able to test with two units, to reproduce the same results. Furthermore it is clearly audible with high quality AMT studio monitors, e.g. the Abacus A-Box 10 AMT or the Adam A5!. Less with Syrincs M3-220. Recently with an old shabby mono amp at the service technician's workshop, I could not hear it at all. Bummer.

Recording is problematic to reproduce this, as it sounds better there. I have already wasted hours on this.

Probably there is an erratic software bug or loose contact in hardware still hidden in my MP7.
With firmware v1.10 I had a new tiny scratchy background noise on D5 and a "cutting" noise on E5, which disappeared after a power cycle and only is re-occurring occasionally.
There is also a slight crackling, mostly in the left channel, in the lower octaves with the CutOff Filter/ Resonance/ DCF Attack Lvl on the Concert Grand, and the plain standard Mellow Grand.
It's a curse if you hear all that and can't nail it down.

Therefore I'd be ready to pay extra for a new sound board and/or software upgrade, which would include the new Shigeru samples of the CA67/CA69.

BTW: I forgot to mention, that I also reduced Stereo Width from default 127 to 74 for all my piano sounds.

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#2380559 - Today at 04:30 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Frédéric L]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 180
Loc: Austria, EU
Originally Posted By: Frédéric L
It maybe the time to use virtual piano on a PC. You could then reuse the MP11 action with another sound (as I do with a Clavinova bought in 2003)

That could be one solution. I have already tried Pianoteq 5.
But in the end that is not what I have payed Kawai EUR 1500,- for.

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#2380562 - Today at 04:41 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 746
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I know what you are talking about. Although my last three pianos are Kawai, I've never really been in love with the piano sound. It is just ok. Acceptable, slightly sterile, not very inspiring. However that only serves to prove other brands are even worse frown I personally like the Yamaha sound better but their keyboards and the key-sound connection isn't great on most of their pianos. I was really impressed by the CP5 as an instrument of its own, a lovely singing voice and great expressive yet light action that is however not very realistic. Maybe it's time to not seek the best acoustic piano replacement but rather the best digital piano. I already believe there exists a difference.
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2380572 - Today at 05:07 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: OneWatt]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 605
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: OneWatt
Finally, since I've got your attention (and maybe someone at Kawai too), I'll also add my little rant about the metronome .. why the timing of the metronome changes with each individual voice is a truly ridiculous annoyance and I'm left constantly changing my Hanon and other practice timings each and every time I switch a voice ... increasingly annoying. I keep my interest level up by playing scales, arpeggios, Hanon, jazz comp changes, etc. on piano, organ, EP, harpsichord, vibes, ... so I'm constantly switching around the sounds and the metronome timing I'm using that day must be changed again every time. Highly irritating. But hey, I digress ;-)

At least you have a stop / start control on your metronome! Count yourself lucky!
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2380573 - Today at 05:07 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: lophiomys]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By: lophiomys
... Probably there is an erratic software bug or loose contact in hardware still hidden in my MP7... It's a curse if you hear all that and can't nail it down.

...Therefore I'd be ready to pay extra for a new sound board and/or software upgrade, which would include the new Shigeru samples of the CA67/CA69.


Man, that does sound like a curse indeed. I'm lucky I don't hear any of that going on (if it's in the sample or a software bug) or perhaps my unit doesn't have that weirdness factor (if it's the hardware).

My sympathies are with you as it's clear this has consumed much energy and angst on your part. To be candid, if I heard what you've been dealing with I'd have a hard time enjoying the keyboard. I trust you're keeping a healthy attitude about it if you're still playing it.

I'm not familiar with those Shigeru samples but, like you, for significant enhancements I'm always open to paying a fair upgrade price.

However my strong suspicion is that this will never happen... as sample data would not likely be changeable without swapping/reflashing internal memory - and that's not a consumer-friendly changeover.

Few of us would likely drop off our MP keyboards at the service center for a few weeks while they crack 'em open and swap out circuit boards and the like. And if I were Kawai, I'd be saving those new samples to help sell the future MP15 ;-)

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#2380577 - Today at 05:19 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: lolatu]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Originally Posted By: OneWatt
...I'll also add my little rant about the metronome ...

At least you have a stop / start control on your metronome! Count yourself lucky!


lolatu - Hard to tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek... may I assume you don't have a metronome built-in on your board? If so, you're right, I'm lucky to have one at all grin

But I'm tempted to just use an external metronome and jack it into the audio input of the keyboard so at least the timing won't constantly change with every voice changeover.

... in effect this would be the same as not having a built-in metronome after all smirk

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#2380611 - Today at 06:02 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: OneWatt]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 605
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: OneWatt
But I'm tempted to just use an external metronome and jack it into the audio input of the keyboard so at least the timing won't constantly change with every voice changeover.

I've considered doing the same... in fact, I was using an external drum machine for a while. But its abilities as a metronome weren't so great. Also I've looked at metronomes and have not been impressed with what's on the market. It seems that something with a really easy-to-use user interface, i.e. individual buttons for each time signature, a big slider or dial for tempo that goes up in notches like a real metronome, a bunch of preset buttons, and mains power, doesn't exist.

The particularly annoying feature on the CA series that I'm referring to is that in the metronome setup screen, the beat starts automatically, plays the whole time you're just setting up, and there's no way to stop or pause it other than exiting that screen and pressing the button again. Since you usually want to stay on the settings screen while using the metronome so that you can change tempo, or switching to another piece, this is especially craptastic. You can store settings in a registration, but this also changes you to a specific sound, which you can't change until you exit the registration, at which point the metronome changes back!

Originally Posted By: OneWatt
I'm not familiar with those Shigeru samples but, like you, for significant enhancements I'm always open to paying a fair upgrade price.

Me too, but Kawai's idea of an upgrade is to trade the whole thing in and buy an new one...
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2380628 - Today at 06:35 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: lolatu]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By: lolatu
...The particularly annoying feature on the CA series that I'm referring to is that in the metronome setup screen, the beat starts automatically, plays the whole time you're just setting up, and there's no way to stop or pause it other than exiting that screen and pressing the button again. Since you usually want to stay on the settings screen while using the metronome so that you can change tempo, or switching to another piece, this is especially craptastic. You can store settings in a registration, but this also changes you to a specific sound, which you can't change until you exit the registration, at which point the metronome changes back!


Gee, I'm not familiar with the CA series' metronome, but to your point, that sure does sound fairly "craptastic" ... ok, you've got me inspired to start a new topic on Kawai internal metronomes. Perhaps it'll get enough momentum that we can all learn something about workarounds/limitations/etc and perhaps the folks at Kawai might even get some suggestions for future metronomic consideration. wink

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#2380629 - Today at 06:37 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
Markarian Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 536
Loc: Seattle Area
Thanks for the replies, but yeah. Please start a new thread for the particle board Kawais. Kthnx
_________________________
2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Korg Kross 61

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#2380660 - Today at 07:40 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By: Markarian
Thanks for the replies, but yeah. Please start a new thread for the particle board Kawais. Kthnx


Done. [Sorry about that!]

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#2380661 - Today at 07:42 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12337
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Markarian, I just don't think you're going to get a sound that will compare to an acoustic. And mostly software pianos are better, then DP piano sounds. Certainly try getting good/different speakers or headphones and treat your room acoustically for the best possible sound. But in the end, it's not going to thrill you like an acoustic. Even software pianos won't, but they're a bit better.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11


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#2380682 - Today at 09:20 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
fizikisto Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 792
Loc: Hernando, MS
Markarian,
FWIW, I remember a thread (OP with a nick like abbey something maybe? anyone remember?) who was a gigging musician who got an MP11 and was very dissatisfied with the sounds of it....but he got a lot of suggestions on how to tweak it, did a lot of experimentation, and then ended up raving about the sounds. You might look for the thread (or maybe someone else knows what I'm babbling about smile. My recollection is vague, but I think there must have been some good tips there on adjusting the settings to optimize the sound.
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800

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#2380692 - Today at 10:37 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: fizikisto]
littlebirdblue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/14
Posts: 99

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#2380694 - Today at 10:45 PM Re: Uninspired by my MP11 [Re: Markarian]
fizikisto Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 792
Loc: Hernando, MS
littlebirdblue
yes, that's the OP I was referring to, thanks! http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2323355 might also be worth looking at. smile
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88
Roland RD800

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