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Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question, but due to family health issues I find myself going through a crash course on DPs. My wife was recently diagnosed with MS, affecting the sensitivity in fingers, and the recommendation is to exercise them. She has always wanted to learn to play, and we decided now is the time to start.

We ruled out an acoustic for the foreseeable future, and are unfortunately limited to about $400 for the physical keyboard itself. I do already have a monitor/amp, a great set of headphones, and pc's/laptops capable of being a dedicated pianoteq machine.

At this price range, I have been looking at the used options around us, initially narrowing it to:
- Roland RD-600 (oldest of the three, was this higher-end than the P90/CP33? Would it be too outdated in a sensor/action sense?)
- Yamaha P90 (CP33 predecessor, but 'lower-level' than the RD-600? Could the action on this be better than the CP33 due to the GH/GHS change?), and
- Yamaha CP33 (newest & latest tech, but much much harder to find for $400. Could the action on this be too demanding for someone with MS?)

My wife is a very private person, and this would be a 'therapy' piano that would be entirely stationary, and serve as a controller for her pianoteq/headphones setup almost exclusively. That being the case, I wanted to get the most realistic (subjective, I know) action that I can afford, without as much stress on on-board voices/features or physical weight. She probably won't ever use any voices outside of the grands included in the pianoteq setup, to be honest.

Would I be correct in thinking that the CP33 feedback would be much more realistic, with more velocity gradients and better sensors than the much older RD-600? I know the RD-600 is not graded, but would the hammer action be more realistic because it was rated so well 15 years ago? If the P90 or CP33 is the way to go, should I be concerned about the 'heavy' characteristic of the keys for someone with MS, or is it more of a 'splitting hairs' type of difference?

Thanks in advance for any advice, and again apologies for the 'newbie' questions!

Last edited by JeepnHeel; 01/31/15 03:10 PM.
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JeepnHeel, welcome here.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. I think with the recommendation to exercise fingers and your wife's interest in piano, it's a perfect solution.

There will be a lot of people here in the digital forum much better qualified to give you advice on the specific DPs. But, I will tell you, that I have recently upgraded from a 'soft' keyboard (as in no action) to a fully graded hammer action DP. It makes a big difference. I'd say that if exercise is the main point, then you should definitely go for the hammer action. My fingers have gotten stronger already in the few weeks I've had the new piano, and I have better control. And this would be the point here as I understand it.

Wait for the experts to weigh in on the piano part. Good luck to you both.

PS: There are no dumb questions in the Piano World smile

Last edited by Jytte; 01/31/15 03:39 PM.

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Curiously I began learning the piano about three months ago for reasons similar to your wife's. While I do not have MS for the last few years my already weak hands have become much worse. I asked one of the physical therapists if playing a piano would be helpful. She nearly blew me over with her enthusiasm for the idea. So let my address the purely physical attributes first.

I say all of the following for one reason; a weighted keyboard may NOT be the wisest choice.

I bought a bottom of the line Casio CDP 230R during Costco's annual Christmas keyboard mania. It does have a weighted keyboard that is very much like a small upright would have.

When I first set it up I played around with it for about two hours before I realized that my hands were cramping up from the effort. The resulting pain would not allow me to play again for nearly two weeks. Since that initial mistake I have learned that playing any longer than about 15 minutes at one time would result in several days (even weeks) of pain and no time on the piano (or computer for that matter).

I now practice nearly first thing in the morning (a man's got have a couple cups of coffee first!) for a timed, and yes I set a timer, 15 minutes. Then during the day I try to practice at least two more times never exceeding the 15 minute rule. This is a bit frustrating, but if I don't observe that rule I end up not being able to play for the next several days. BTW you would be surprised how much you rely on your hands during the day. I found that too much time on the KB made everyday tasks like spending time on the computer or cooking dinner very unpleasant experiences.

I am willing to put up with the 15 minute rule, your wife may not. If that is the case you would be much better off buying a DP with an organ style, i.e. non-weighted keyboard. She would still get a lot of exercise manipulating her fingers without the added loss of energy or strength needed with a weighted board.

Secondly as to your question if you are splitting hairs, well, yup you are. Any of the boards listed in your post are excellent choices. It is more likely than not that any DP you purchase your wife will adapt to in no time at all. Although you may be wise to heed my warning about the effort needed to spend long periods of time practicing.

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Purely personal opinion having owned two RD-600s over the years, a Yamaha CP33 and a P80 (which was the P90's predecessor)...

The RD-600 in its day was a very powerful and versatile stage piano. Given that your wife will be using PianoTeq for acoustic piano tones I do think she could find some of the interesting synth sounds on the RD quite entertaining. There are some fantastic layering possibilities with the RD's onboard sounds. It's also a very powerful MIDI controller. The onboard acoustic pianos are outdated but there is some real variety and she could find some of them very useable even by today's standards.

The CP33 is nothing like as versatile but it is/was a cheaper thing altogether. The RD was Roland's flagship for a few years and it shows.

I found the GH key action on CP33 slightly frustrating in that there is a slightly odd initial inertia to overcome to get the keys moving on the Yamaha action. It gives the subjective impression of (in my opinion) excessive heaviness.

The RD-600 was one of the first digital pianos to go towards a more percussive and agile feel. The Yamahas and Technics pianos of the day were quite stodgy and syrupy by comparison. I think the RD would stand comparison with today's stuff, although as you know it is not a graded action. I don't see that as an issue but some people do.

I'm not familiar with the P90 specifically but it was a successor to the legendary P80. P80 was a premium but very compact stage piano (no speakers). In any event all share the same GH keyboard (like CP33).

I'd go RD without a doubt out of the choices you mention but with one important proviso: The RD-600 is getting on now and if you can find one you'll need to be sure it is 100% functional and has been well looked after. Its predecessor the RD-500 had an almost inevitable habit of breaking keys once it got plenty of miles on it. The PA-4 hammer action on the RD-600 was a re-design and undoubtedly superior to the 500's action but nonetheless a well used one will perhaps suffer the occasional breakage. Keys are generally available through eBay and are a relatively easy fix but even so, it's a pain in the arse to have to fix ageing gear!

Good luck with your choice anyway,

Steve

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Originally Posted by Jytte
JeepnHeel, welcome here.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife's diagnosis. I think with the recommendation to exercise fingers and your wife's interest in piano, it's a perfect solution.

There will be a lot of people here in the digital forum much better qualified to give you advice on the specific DPs. But, I will tell you, that I have recently upgraded from a 'soft' keyboard (as in no action) to a fully graded hammer action DP. It makes a big difference. I'd say that if exercise is the main point, then you should definitely go for the hammer action. My fingers have gotten stronger already in the few weeks I've had the new piano, and I have better control. And this would be the point here as I understand it.

Wait for the experts to weigh in on the piano part. Good luck to you both.

PS: There are no dumb questions in the Piano World smile


Thanks very much for the kind welcome (and the support)! The 'strength training' (as opposed to simple no-resistance exercise) aspect was one I hadn't considered yet, but would be a benefit as long as she felt comfortable with it. My main purpose in seeking out hammer action DPs was to prepare her for an eventual acoustic down the road, but that would be an added benefit...

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Originally Posted by Dennis R in WA
Curiously I began learning the piano about three months ago for reasons similar to your wife's.

While I do not have MS for the last few years my already weak hands have become much worse. I asked one of the physical therapists if playing a piano would be helpful. She nearly blew me over with her enthusiasm for the idea. So let my address the purely physical attributes first.

I say all of the following for one reason; a weighted keyboard may NOT be the wisest choice.

I bought a bottom of the line Casio CDP 230R during Costco's annual Christmas keyboard mania. It does have a weighted keyboard that is very much like a small upright would have.

When I first set it up I played around with it for about two hours before I realized that my hands were cramping up from the effort. The resulting pain would not allow me to play again for nearly two weeks. Since that initial mistake I have learned that playing any longer than about 15 minutes at one time would result in several days (even weeks) of pain and no time on the piano (or computer for that matter).

I now practice nearly first thing in the morning (a man's got have a couple cups of coffee first!) for a timed, and yes I set a timer, 15 minutes. Then during the day I try to practice at least two more times never exceeding the 15 minute rule. This is a bit frustrating, but if I don't observe that rule I end up not being able to play for the next several days. BTW you would be surprised how much you rely on your hands during the day. I found that too much time on the KB made everyday tasks like spending time on the computer or cooking dinner very unpleasant experiences.

I am willing to put up with the 15 minute rule, your wife may not. If that is the case you would be much better off buying a DP with an organ style, i.e. non-weighted keyboard. She would still get a lot of exercise manipulating her fingers without the added loss of energy or strength needed with a weighted board.

Secondly as to your question if you are splitting hairs, well, yup you are. Any of the boards listed in your post are excellent choices. It is more likely than not that any DP you purchase your wife will adapt to in no time at all. Although you may be wise to heed my warning about the effort needed to spend long periods of time practicing.


Thanks, Dennis... that makes perfect sense, and is good advice! I know she would rather have key action as close to an acoustic as possible, limiting her sessions as you suggest. She has a classic Casio 701 synth from her parents that doesn't get played very much, as it just doesn't feel or sound like the acoustic piano effect she is seeking.

The effects of her MS have affected her sensitivity more so than her strength, but it sounds like she'll be in store for some muscle-building over the coming months either way. I hope your strength continues to come back as well-- it sounds like you have the right plan!

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Originally Posted by EssBrace

The CP33 is nothing like as versatile but it is/was a cheaper thing altogether. The RD was Roland's flagship for a few years and it shows.

I found the GH key action on CP33 slightly frustrating in that there is a slightly odd initial inertia to overcome to get the keys moving on the Yamaha action. It gives the subjective impression of (in my opinion) excessive heaviness.

The RD-600 was one of the first digital pianos to go towards a more percussive and agile feel. The Yamahas and Technics pianos of the day were quite stodgy and syrupy by comparison. I think the RD would stand comparison with today's stuff, although as you know it is not a graded action. I don't see that as an issue but some people do.


Thanks for the direct comparison! It's good to hear a contemporary vote of confidence for the RD-600.

Outside of the physical key action, do you think the velocity increments/sensors of the RD were worse/same/better compared to the CP33? I'm under the assumption that pianoteq allows a theoretical 128 levels, and each keyboard is capable of only providing a portion of that range. Would I be giving up subtle expressive detail by going with the RD in that regard?

I'm also assuming that both support half-pedaling (with appropriate pedal)... is that correct in your experience?

Originally Posted by EssBrace

I'd go RD without a doubt out of the choices you mention but with one important proviso: The RD-600 is getting on now and if you can find one you'll need to be sure it is 100% functional and has been well looked after. Its predecessor the RD-500 had an almost inevitable habit of breaking keys once it got plenty of miles on it. The PA-4 hammer action on the RD-600 was a re-design and undoubtedly superior to the 500's action but nonetheless a well used one will perhaps suffer the occasional breakage. Keys are generally available through eBay and are a relatively easy fix but even so, it's a pain in the arse to have to fix ageing gear!


Thanks so much for the advice... good to hear from someone who has owned both! There is an RD-600 available locally that has been used in a church since it was purchased, and listed as being in very good/working shape. As I am no player myself, my only thought is to make sure all keys sound & work evenly, and that all the effects work. Outside of playing it (which I wouldn't subject anyone to), would you recommend anything else? I am pretty handy with tools/tech, and definitely don't mind doing a mechanism repair here or there.

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I have no doubt that the RD will be capable of recognising and 'sending' all 128 MIDI velocities. So in controlling PianoTeq for instance the range of expression possible with the RD will be the same as for any digital piano.

The half pedalling question is a good one. You might have to research online a little about that. If I had to guess I would suspect that the RD-600 predates developments such as half pedalling. But I don't know for sure.

As for other recommendations there are numerous options out there. Almost anything would do the job, especially if it would be mainly used for sending MIDI to another sound source such as PianoTeq or other software. To my mind the advantage of the RD-600 over the others you mention is all the additional stuff it can do. I remember mine very fondly indeed. But if that stuff has little relevance to your circumstances there may be better choices.

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According to this Roland site, the RD-600 does support half-pedalling:

www.rolandus.com/products/dp-8/

The Roland DP-8 Damper Pedal is the perfect choice for keyboard players who want the most realistic pedal action, thanks to new half-pedal support. When used with compatible instruments, this function allows the sustain length to be varied depending on how deep the pedal is pressed. The versatile DP-8 can also be used a simple pedal switch.



High-quality damper pedal with expressive half-pedal capabilities
Allows players to vary the sustain depending on position of pedal
Can also be used as a 2-position pedal switch (On, Off)
Half-pedal function compatible with Roland RD-600/700, FP-9/3, F-90, KF-90, XV-88 and Fantom-Series workstations





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FWIW --

If you want a weighted action that's fairly light, find a used Yamaha P105. It has the "GHS" action, noticeably lighter than the GH in the CP33 / P155 / etc.

Another alternative (but heavier action, more like an acoustic piano) is a used Casio PX-150. They are old enough to appear on the used-piano market and should be in your price range. [I have a PX-350, driving Pianoteq, and like the combination.]

Either of those will drive Pianoteq (or another software piano) nicely, with MIDI-over-USB connection to the computer.

If your wife is an adult beginning pianist, she needn't worry about "half-pedal" capability. It'll be taxing enough to get her fingers moving on the right keys, at the right time, with the right touch. And learn to synchronize that with the right foot on the damper pedal.

If you're a serious pianist (not a beginner), half-pedal is a useful feature. Just my opinion, of course.

. Charles



. Charles
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Thanks very much to all for the help & advice. The wife & I took a 'tour' over the weekend to try out the various used models around us. Before we could make it to the RD-600 or CP33, we tried out the brand new expensive Yahama acoustics at Kitt's, as well as the top-end Yamaha & Roland digital consoles... then went to Guitar Center.

She wasn't liking the action on any of the Casio's or ungraded Yamahas (she said the felt lighter/bouncier than the Yamaha & YC uprights/grand acoustics we tried), but REALLY liked the feel of a 2-month-old Roland F-20 we saw used at Guitar Center. We actually ended up getting it for around $400. As I'm going to exclusively use pianoteq5 & external speaker/monitor setup, it seemed to have the action that felt 'most real' to her with none of the extra stuff or portability that we didn't need (and is 15-or-so years younger than the RD-600 and many years younger than the CP33).

My only reservation at this point is the considerable love I am reading about for the Kawai ES100... there are no used ones available to us now, so we'd be looking at almost $400 more than the F-20 for a new ES100, and there are no stores that I can find that have one we could try out....

- Anyone know a place near Wash DC that carries the ES100 in-store?
- Any opinions on whether the ES100 is even worth tracking down for us, given:
a. It would be $400 more, right now, than the F-20 (either we wait for a great price on a used one, or exceed our budget of $500)
b. We don't need any voices other than grand piano, and will be using VSTs/ext speakers in a stationary spot
c. The wife likes the feel/resistance/action of the F-20 over Casio 350 & Yamaha P255 (she did like some of the Yamaha Arius consoles for some reason, but I thought they'd have the same GHS?)
d. The lack of the una corda & sostenuto pedal option on the Roland won't be a problem for us
e. The apple i[Insert Device Here] connectivity on the Roland is of no use to us... would be using PlaygroundSessions, Musiah, other online lessons/games instead.


Thanks again to all for the great help here, we would have been lost this weekend without it!

Last edited by JeepnHeel; 02/03/15 03:58 PM.
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Don't worry about the Kawai now she's found something she really likes. You'll just muddy the waters. . . . have fun!. These things are great for learning on and will help her fingers too.

Last edited by peterws; 02/05/15 03:11 AM.

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Originally Posted by peterws
Don't worry about the Kawai now she's found something she really likes. You'll just muddy the waters. . . . have fun!. These things are great for learning on and will help her fingers too.


+1.

$400 for a Roland F-20 is a good deal. You did a better-than-average comparison, by including acoustic pianos in the mix. I'd believe her fingers, rather than reviews.

Use it in good health!

. Charles

PS -- My guess is that you'll be able to sell the F-20 for about what you paid for it, if you want to upgrade. But that could take a long time to happen.


. Charles
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PX-350 / Roland Gaia / Pianoteq

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