Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Am I crazy? 1921 Baldwin with “History” (PICS)

As a 40th birthday present, I’m finally getting a grand. The budget is small, topping out at about $7k, more comfortably around $5k. I’ve been visiting dealers in the area and have found several options that fit the bill, and play beautifully: A 1987 Kawaii, a 1975 Baldwin, a 2006 Noriska, etc. I’d say I’m an intermediate player. I’d call myself an “avid amateur”… played in high school and college, majored in music, classically trained singer. Definitely “vocalist first, pianist second,” but I certainly know my way around a keyboard.

We decided to take a look at a local Craigslist ad that was ridiculously cheap, almost 2 hours away, but caught my attention. “Baldwin Grand Piano for Sale.”

Pics were vague, no serial #, even after asking (“can’t find it”). Daughter is selling the piano.. owned by her elderly mother who moved into an assisted living facility. Ad said it was “refinished to natural wood”. Drove out to a VERY rural area to look at it, and darn if it didn’t play pretty well! Had not been tuned in several years, but was remarkably in tune: big fat bass, nice treble, round, warm tone, but definitely aged. Certainly sounded better than the spinet I’ve been limping along with at home. Daughter says it’s been in the family for “at least 40 years”. Father and mother were band directors and music educators. Kept it in relative tune and used it regularly. The case is in rough condition. Poorly refinished in the past, and the brass workings inside are kind of weathered and dull. Lid is cracked, but still in one piece.

I was able to locate a serial number (K35944), and told the owner that, according to the online charts, the piano seemed to be built around 1921. She was shocked at the age. While chatting and getting ready to leave, I notice some writing inside the piano. I lick my finger and clear away some funk and see something written in pencil: “Played by Alvin Roper, Andalusia, Alabama, August 1925”. Daughter says she’s never seen the writing and we joke about it perhaps being someone of note. Odd that it would be written inside the piano.

I begin to look further, and see several pencil writings and actual etchings. Someone has both etched and written when the piano has been tuned, and who tuned it: 1926, 1929, 1932, 1936, 1941, and on and on. I can also see portions of something that reads “Notice: Don’t tune ____. Never use ___ A444… (unintelligible)” Signed by “Roper”.

I left and came home wondering why I was enamored with this old piano… I should totally choose the 1987 Kawaii for $7.5k and ride off in to the sunset. But this old Baldwin intrigued me.

Upon further research, it seems Alvin Roper was a concert pianist in the first part of the century. He has several notable compositions, and was famed for his “Chime Piano” compositions, apparently marking both the beginning and end of the “chime piano” scourge. LOL

It seems Mr. Alvin Roper was not just a concert pianist and composer; he was also a staunch prohibitionist who traveled the country with the famous evangelist Billy Sunday. Billy Sunday traveled and preached with Bob Jones (founder of Bob Jones University). We’ve found online newspaper clippings from the Andalusia, Alabama newspaper stating that Bob Jones held a 3-week revival in the small town of Andalusia in August of 1925. This revival is notable for a sad but interesting piece of history: thousands of dollars were raised by the Ku Klux Klan and presented as a donation to Reverend Bob Jones, making it one of the largest “official” donations to a religious organization by the KKK.

Based on the scribblings, we feel that this piano was used by Mr. Alvin Roper during this 3-week revival, even bearing his tuning recommendations.

So, after hearing all of that, should I forget about this old piano for $750 and just get the $7k Kawaii? Help! Am I crazy? Am I wrong? Advice, please!!

LINKS TO PICS:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2380739.html#Post2380739

Well, if you can find someone to restring it, replace the hammers, and do the other work it needs at a reasonable price, it might very well be a decent piano at a price close to the Kawai. It looks to be a C scale Baldwin, which would be the equivalent to an L: 6' 3" long.

It looks like some of the hammers have been covered with leather, which is what some people did to worn out hammers, so replacement would be a big improvement. What you need to do is resist what others will tell you, that you have to replace the soundboard, all the action parts, and the other things that last indefinitely but people will try to get you to replace to pad their income. That will take the price way beyond your budget and make little difference in how the piano plays or sounds.

My teacher uses a 45 year old Baldwin concert grand. It still plays well and is a fine piano but you can tell it's reaching end-of-life. I always hold back for fear of damaging its brittle old bones.

That old piano has intriguing story but little else to support serious consideration. Are you searching for a long term relationship or an interesting intermezzo? Those birthday dollars going towards a piano with an anticipated remaining lifespan closer to your own will bring many more years of joy.

Think about it. Do you really want to deal with costly repairs and ongoing high maintenance? A newer piano (under 20 years) that permits musical growth and handles intermediate level mistakes without damage may be a much better choice.

Look Alive--a very interesting history on the Baldwin... But, I think in the long run, wearing your shoes, I would ask myself if I would be satisfied with this nearly century old piano down the road -- 5, 10, or 15 years from now (factoring in all the restoration of new strings, hammers, regulation, etc.). I'm not knocking good restorations, but this can be pricy... I would encourage to keep looking... There are plenty of "newer" Baldwins out there too, as well as, other good brands Of course, always have a good RPT to check out any used piano prior to purchase.

Hire a tech to evaluate it for you and tell you what should be done to it and how much it would cost. Only then will you be able to make an informed decision, and possibly avoid a big mistake.

Always get a used instrument professionally evaluated. This is the number one rule. With that said I feel that an older Baldwin can become a nicer instrument than an 80's Kawai. The reality is that both could benefit from detailed rebuilding and will need it, but the bigger bang for the buck, in my experience, will be from the Baldwin.

Worrying about breaking an older instrument, might be a tad too paranoid. I've never encountered any instrument that fell to pieces because someone hit a D instead of a D# in Fur Elise.

With that much rust on the strings the pin-block will probably need replacing to insure you don't end up with very "jumpy" pins that make stable, fine tuning difficult if not impossible. Also many of the Baldwins from this era had flat-sawn bridge caps and these crack quicker and loosen at the glue joint with the bridge root more easily because of the differential in wood movement. Also, rust around the bridge pins and where the string crosse the bridge "rot" the wood and reduce the tone quality possible.

These pianos do sound and play very well when put in good order.

I've learned something valuable today!!

Thank you!

Forrest

Rust on the strings or tuning pins at most will affect the very topmost part of the pin block, and will not have a permanent effect. In order for rust to occur, there needs to be exposure to oxygen.

Have the piano evaluated by a tech and then plan on eventually spending the 7k or more on refurbishing. Its pre acu-just hitch pins, so it is a piano worth consideration in your price range.

I am a little biased toward older Baldwin Grands; but, as my daddy told me, "It takes one to know one," so I doubt your even a little crazy. Baldwin made fine pianos in my humble opinion.


Enjoy.

"...With his wife administering the campaign organization, Sunday was free to do what he did best: compose and deliver colloquial sermons. Typically, Homer Rodeheaver would first warm up the crowd with congregational singing that alternated with numbers from gigantic choirs and music performed by the staff..."

Tech evaluation, including an estimate of the cost to set it right and the ongoing cost to keep it musically useful. Pay for a written estimate, and not just a look-over. If you know you are going to require a rebuilder, it might be a good thing if you identify this person before you buy a piano to send to them.

I do not see the budget you mentioned, stretching to cover much if any rebuild work.

Typically, people who want to move up the piano food chain, starting with a modest and less-expensive model, will consider their chances of selling the starter piano once they have saved up enough to afford a better instrument. That usually means something newer, with a name that is better-known to the public.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful and informative responses.

After I weighed all the pros and cons, and looked closely at my wallet, I decided to go with the Kawai. It'll be delivered this weekend, and I couldn't be happier.

Apparently, it's a somewhat unusual model, a 1986 K. Kawai GE-2 (5'7"). Apparently that's a common size for other companies but never has been for Kawai, except for a few back in the late 80's and early 90's. It plays beautifully, looks great, was immaculately maintained. The dealer has been extremely easy and fair to deal with.

If you are interested in hearing a little more about the Kawai GE-2, here's a YouTube video from Rick Jones Piano. This isn't the piano I purchased, but it's about the only thing I could find online about the elusive Kawai GE-2.

Skip to the 3:30 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHtrv9G9ohs