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I'm more interested in the real world results. Looped or not, I thought the MP10 sounded more natural overall than the unlooped Roland SN or Korg Kronos in actual playing.

Hi Marcos,

I think this is good advice in general. I have actually tried pianoteq and liked it a lot paired with my CL30, especially after having grown tired of the piano's native samples. Other than the ocasional latency issues, I think it's the most organic sound you can get, short of an acoustic piano (which if I had, this whole debate wouldn't have even existed.

The problem with this is that it isn't a portable solution at all, so in the long run I need more of a stage piano. Right now, I'm looking into a used MP6 which I can use with pianoteq, thus taking care of the whole PHI vs. HI-XL dilema. You know how hard it is for us over here to find reasonable products (not to mention being able to try them before buying).

BTW, I really don't know whether to laugh or cry about the 35% tax remark... sad times.

But all things being equal, you would almost certainly take an unlooped MP10 (if indeed such a thing existed) over the current looped MP10.

Yes, of course.

But that's a rather different argument to the "any instrument that utilises looping is immediately worthless" message that you trot out ad nauseam.

As anotherscott notes, real world results are more important than paper specifications. On this point, and many others, I'm more inclined to value the musical judgement of an experienced player over the purely technical analysis of an non-piano-playing engineer.

Kind regards,
James
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WOW, that's been rough, James.
It's not necessary being either a pro musician or an engineer to realize that most of DP's lack truth, just a well trained listener. Even a translator could hear it! That's why more people are going the software route when it comes to play classical.
In a few years you'll have to admit this too, because the gap between computers and DPs is narrower each day and at some point you'll sell no CA/CS at all, except perhaps to unaware people (perhaps you already do).
If you can't hear that latest HI-XL is fake (as well) since the first chord in the demo...it's not our problem. If you belive that price/quality ratio is nice, buy one.
To me, this donkey is lame.

Dewster is giving his opinion a voice, based on hard technical facts,
similar to your constant professional praise of Kawai products, sometimes neglecting "real world results".


Would the judgement of a non-piano-playing piano tuner do, for example?
Ones ears don't lie. Even the ears of unskilled piano players.

If I'd summarize my own real world results encountered with my MP7 as a subjective customer experience, be it some aspects of the HI-XL Concert Grand Samples or fighting the odd bug of defect, that would bring forward a very dark picture.

Kind Regards,
Lo Phi

I have to agree with KJ ...Sound matters to me most.

Technical analysis points out specific deficiencies, and these are born out by listening. But only the design engineer needs to understand the relationship between technical source and sonic results. As a player and listener, I only need hear the sound. That's all that matters. I don't see (nor need to see) the waveforms.

Side note to KJ: I hope your words non-piano-playing engineer is not referring to dewster. I think he takes time away from the oscilloscope to sit in front of a piano.

I wonder if anybody performed a scientific comparison of acoustic piano versus DP in which the participants listen -blindfolded/without knowing the source- the sound and try to guess whether it is of an AP or DP... I would very much like to know how many will be able to distinguish consistently (let's say >90%)... I couldn't... I'm only a-little-bit-piano-playing-MD... And in response to mabraman: of course they are fake they're digital... Only not fake one is called acoustic piano (IMHO). I wonder why a so much ear-sensitive person would insist playing a DP?
Cheers
Semih

Well, sometimes is a matter of money, or space, or late time practicing, or as a first contact with music. Organs and EPs make it funny, too. It's good up to a certain price, IMO. In fact I was about to upgrade to a CA95 (without knowing a 97 was already being launched), but they asked me 3,5k €. For some hundred more I have the real thing and I can keep my digital (which I haven't hardly played since I have the acoustic). So there went all of my savings.
I can be wrong.
As for Dewster, who btw doesn't need any help, I think he's thoroughly analized pros and cons of each sound module, for years. He deserves full respect IMO.
Some of us can't belive that some manufactures still put such little memory in their instruments, given the price, and insist on selling them as electronic masterpieces.
Do DPs fool us? Sometimes, I agree. Are they valid? Of course. Are they as good as marketing says? No way.

To me it is not so much the matter of changing between Acoustic and Digital.
It is more if there is something subjectively "wrong" in the sound.

When switching from an 15 year old Roland RD-500 to the MP7 I experienced some surprises.

The RD-500 is, what it is, old, short mono samples, but I practiced on it for a few months without any complaint on sound, using the same new headphones I used later on the MP7 with HI-XL samples. Until I decided to get something new, because the hammers got brittle inside the RD-500, and required repeated maintenance.

Then with the MP7, after successful tests on the store floor, at home in a quiet living room you hear sound artifacts, upsetting frequencies in the sample, which someone called "character". It was so bad, that first I was convinced my MP7 would have some hardware defects. BTW as I discovered later, you shouldn't use any too precise AMT studio monitors and you need stereo. ... To cut a long story short, after fixing the Modulation Wheel (which may or may not have caused some side effects in the sound generation, it shouldn't have, but hard to tell) and some software bugs in the firmware (now at v1.10), and with not too precise speakers (Syrincs M3-220) it is in the range of the acceptable now. Only my headphones still bring forward some of the more unfavorable frequencies.

Personally I have no problem to practice on old and battered and slightly detuned acoustics, which I do regularly. Only two Yamaha G2's grands with not perfectly tuned and regulated higher registers are giving me the creeps. Since I switch between the MP7 and cheap/old APs at least twice a week, I can tell the difference.

What remains is, there is something tiny, but upsetting in the sound of C4-C6 of the EX Concert Grand (HI-XL), especially on headphones, which I do not hear with other DPs nor with several Kawai acoustics. (I couldn't get hold of an EX grand, as they are quite rare. Probably I need to find a 3m EX and stick my head under the lid to get an comparable experience. )

So in the end, you asking yourself, where are the improvements in technology and sound quality after all those years?

Today, my Dealer will take my CA95 in exchange for giving me a new CA95. G above Middle C is alive and well in Concert Grand. Switch to other voices? Issues there too.

Headphones? Quite acceptable.
USB Recording? Yep.
Line Outs? Quite good
Speakers et al? That is where my problem lives. Please recognize that until someone willing to tell me there is no problem, physically sits down in my home, listens, has no right to tell me I do not hear what I, and many others, hear.

I did not buy this unit to wear headphones all the time. I bought it to play and hear like The Acoustic Grand we are told it mimics.

Stay tuned ...

First of all, I think both dewster and Kawai James have made enormous contributions to this forum, and so both are worthy of respect. They each have their own agenda - one to reveal the truth behind the manufacturers' claims and the other to promote the work of the Kawai engineers - but that doesn't diminish the value of their opinions, as long as the reader is aware of possible bias.

My point of view is that (1): DPs are a convenient facsimile (the kind of grainy, blotchy copy that we associate with 20th century fax machines); and (2): if we want near-perfect piano emulation we must treat DPs as keyboard controllers and buy VST software.

The reason for (2) above seems to be related to the trade-off between startup time, stability and cost. There are manufacturers producing piano samples that approach VST levels of sophistication - Korg and Kurzweil spring to mind - but of those two only Kurzweil appears to have solved the boot-time equation, so far. And whilst I have tried the earlier versions of Korgs unlooped pianos (pre Berlin piano) and found them somewhat uninspiring, I haven't yet tried the new Kurzweil German piano (which from YT videos seems very attractive).

So, very slowly, the manufacturers are inching toward the kind of technology we've become used to in software, but in the meantime - unless we have around $4k to spare for a stage piano, plus another $1-$2k for peripherals - we're stuck with the kind of compromises that were originally implemented (out of necessity) in the 1980s. If we're not willing to pay that kind of money, we need to pick our poison: Yamaha's stretching; Roland's muddiness; Casio's plinking; Kawai's harshness.

And since this is a thread about Kawai's sound generation technology, let me explain my last statement. I do not mean "harshness" as an absolute term, (anymore than I mean muddiness defines Roland) but more as a tendency when comparing the brands. The Kawai samples are very clear, but they are not without artifacts that some players would find slightly grating. My own compromise was based on this: I didn't like Yamaha's obviously stretched and slightly synthetic characteristics; Korg's actions were a disaster zone; Nord's and Kurzweil's actions were only slightly less of a disaster; Casio's notes around an octave above middle C set my teeth on edge, and the finger-sound connection wasn't great; Roland needed a fair amount of adjustment to cope with a live setting; Kawai could appear a little strident, but it was a sound that could be tamed, the MP7 aesthetics were great, the action good, and the controller capabilities and ergonomics were excellent.

I used to rant about poor DP samples versus VSTs, but it's now so easy for me to switch between internal and external with a Surface Pro attached that I am content to let it ride for the time being. Yes, Kawai, Casio and Yamaha are being almost obstinately slow in bringing their sound engines fully up-to-date, but at least with HI-XL, the attack samples are long enough to cover around 80-90% of normal playing without having to resort to looping.

As for the quality of the samples themselves, I do think that the reliance, until now, on samples that exhibited some undesirable characteristics at certain frequencies has put some people off. It's a real shame that the MPs missed out on the new Shigeru samples, which seem to offer a more mellow alternative (something I'd previously suggested would make the Kawais much more desirable), but that's the nature of the game. Leaving aside the new upright sample, the only alternative to the EX in the MPs is the old GP2 samples that were in the MP5 etc. (probably also an EX), but unfortunately these samples, while pleasantly different in character, are stretched and show their age quite badly.

It is very difficult for most people to try Kawai instruments before they buy, and so expectations often outrun experience. As a result, some people will find a gap between reality and expectation when their new Kawai arrives. I have both the MP7 and the ES100. I was a little surprised to find out that they share the same base samples (thanks, dewster), since they sounded different. The difference had way less to do with HI versus HI-XL, and more to do with EQ. The MP7 has a huge amount of adjustment available to it, and so it's possible to dial in a sound that is far more acceptable to the individual player. The ES100 is very limited in that regard, but was very well setup by the engineers and so plays well out of the box. But again, when compared with their respective competitors, these Kawais acquit themselves very well.

Hello all Forum participants, contributors, etc al....
I am new to the forum and joined because of the wealth of information available on all major manufacturers and their offerings....
I recently purchased the Kawai ES7 as a means of gaining some playing chops after years of being away from playing. I still have my original DVD and it's brown case!! I used it for writing as guitar is my primary instrument. A combination of budget and wanting the best sounding unit (to my ears) led me to the Kawai..
After reading all of these forums, reviews, etc., IMHO and because I am not an accomplished keyboardist yet, I believe some of the newest generation of instruments is quite amazing in their capabilities....
And isn't value, quality, etc.,unique to everyone's own standards? ?
If you can afford a Bechstein, Steinway, etc, you get one; if you cannot, you buy as much piano as you can. We have at our disposal some of the finest digital reproductions I have ever heard & they keep getting better. I may be a rookie but music has always played a major role in my life. I for one am grateful to have the choices available that I can play for as many hours as I can devote, even if it is on a fine sounding $2500 piano...
Sorry for the rant - rookie out!!!! Lol...
Cheers,
Riley67.

Thanks voxpops, you are always the voice of reason - have you considered a career as a statesman or hostage negotiator? And in those areas where our experiences with DPs seem to intersect I completely agree with your observations and conclusions.

I've got my eye on Kawai more than any other DP company as they seem to be doing more things right than the others. Their prices seem reasonable, keys are reportedly great, piano tone isn't bad, UIs seems straightforward and intuitive, some are able to render MIDI => WAV, their slabs sport zero DP lengthening controls in the keybed area and include music rests, and some of their furniture models do that active soundboard thing. If they didn't loop I would very, very seriously consider getting one. Kawai is so tantalizingly close one can almost taste it, and I suppose I'm too impatient. Waiting for them to take this last sonic step (you know they will, they pretty much have to at this point) is no fun.

Certainly there are many things about DPs that are personal judgment calls. But because they are mass produced digital devices and share many of the same key action mechanisms and sample playback techniques even across brands, there are things about them are not so open to interpretation, whim, belief, etc. Every other musical instrument I can think of has much more variability between instances.


If you are talking about the sound generators in DPs, it seems those who really care about tone tend to abandon them for sims and samplers running on external hardware.

Sorry should read- "DX7"...not DVD!!!! Darn auto-spell!
Bottom line - manufacturers compete for our business the same way as Automobiles, appliances, computers, etc...
They hope to build a large, loyal market for their products...and do so through continuous improvement...but typically there is a cost associated with higher-end products-and don't we usually get what we pay for?? Do I expect my ES 7 to have the attributes of a $10,000.00 unit? No but my $2500 unit sounds and performs better than its predecessors and better than its less expensive counterparts - so I am satisfied until I can afford a better piano or a different make if the competitor's product offers a better playing experience...Ford, GM,Honda, etc...personal choice IMHO of course!
:P

Hi dewster:
After reading your texts with great interest & enjoyment, I as a consumer of these products am very grateful to have someone like you, your experience & expertise to keep our favourite manufacturers on their toes and keep pushing the envelope towards the continuous improvement we need to be able to have newer & better products on offer....
Gratefully yours,
R67! 😊

The DX7 is a digital engineering marvel. They did much of the synthesis calculations in the log domain so that additions were multiplications. Some really smart cookies developed that one.

True, but still I didn't like most of the sounds it made. Back then I was firmly in the analog camp (true analog, not virtual) as far as electronic instruments were concerned - and actually there you got variations between individual instruments, even if only minor ones. The stability of your VCOs or LFOs, the quality of your VCAs and VCFs, the quasi-temperaments induced by your VC keyboards, temperature drifts and what not all contributed to some traces of individuality. I even built one of these for myself, right down to etching the circuit boards...

I fully agree, a proper musical instrument should be a singular instance, each with a history of its own... Now here is a challenge for DP makers.

This is a great discussion with lots of interesting commentary, and demonstrates why PW is such an engaging forum to read and participate in.

I feel the contrasting opinions expressed in the the last two posts above (and quoted below) neatly summarise the point I wished to make:




You can have all the technological resources and engineering wizardry in the world at your disposal, but this does not guarantee that a given sound will be universally appreciated or musically inspiring.

Conversely, a 15 year old board with limited sample memory, mono samples, and a very basic DSP may not appear terribly impressive on paper (especially when compared to the latest and greatest instruments), yet can still be very enjoyable to play.

Kind regards,
James
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