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#238442 - 04/19/06 08:44 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
pianobuilder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 94
 Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Y:
Steve,

EXACTLY like "pianobuilder"!

I (we) rest my case!

Paul [/b]
I believe it is against forum rules to engage in making personal attacks against another forum member, is it not? Both of you list your industry affiliations, in such detail in fact that it's like reading your resumes every time you post. Yet the information you give is nothing but self serving sales pitches with the substance of a sales brochure. I tell you by my name that I build pianos, thereby noting that I am in the piano industry. I don't feel a need to post my resume every time I write a post, nor do the forum rules require that of me.

The purpose of the rule as I read it is to let other readers know that you are involved in the piano industry so they'll be aware that you aren't another consumer, not to list every single detail of that affiliation. You both do that, but you do it for self aggrandization and to boost your egos, not because it is required of you. In the end, what each of us write will be judged by those who read it as to its accuracy and unbiased usefulness. Both of you, in spite of posting your resumes, will continue to come up short in that area.

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#238443 - 04/19/06 08:53 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17698
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianobuilder:
I tell you by my name that I build pianos, thereby noting that I am in the piano industry. I don't feel a need to post my resume every time I write a post, nor do the forum rules require that of me.

[/b]
My interpretation of the forum rules is somewhat different than yours. I understand that you feel your login name is disclosure enough. However, Frank is very clear that any and all industry affiliations should be displayed in your signature. I also think that saying "piano builder" is not specific enough; it is important for readers to know what brands/models you are involved with, so that we know what possible conflicts of interest you might have when criticizing or praising a given brand. To give an analogy, I would not be comfortable with a forum member who simply called him or herself a "piano dealer" without disclosing the brands he or she represents. If a dealer is criticizing a Yamaha, say, I want to know if that dealer represents Yamaha... or their competition.

I am copying the forum rules on this matter below so that people can read them and decide for themselves whether they think you are meeting the requirements:

Are You A Piano Industry Professional?

* Do You Work In The Piano Industry?
* Or... Were You Recently Associated With The Piano Industry?
* Are You, or Were You a... Piano Dealer, Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder, Sales Person, Manufacturer/Manufacturer's Rep, Distributor, Wholesaler, Retailer, Manager, Consultant, Supplier, Importer/Exporter?

If you answered yes to any of the above, please
Identify your affiliation with the piano business in your signature!

Simply click "my profile" at the top of the page, then click "edit profile", scroll down and find the "Signature" box, fill it in and click "Update Profile" (near the bottom of the page). And yes, it's ok to include a link to your web site if you have one, and even your business phone number if you wish.

The primary objective of Piano World and the Piano Forums is to be a resource people can count on for information about pianos and piano playing.

If you are or were a piano industry professional, please identify yourself as such so people will know the source of your "expertise".

And if it was in the past, we would still really appreciate some details (ex: former Dealer - Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, or ex: former Rep for Gulbransen).

Code Of Ethics:
We do not condone members hiding behind a veil of anonymity so they can push there own agenda, promote their own business or products, or create negative posts about their competitors and/or competitive products.

Show some class, identify yourself and try to contribute positively to the forums.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#238444 - 04/19/06 09:12 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
pianobuilder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 94
I see nothing in the rules that require anyone to do anything more than state the fact that they are in the piano industry. Specifics are requested only. I believe that even a cursory examination of the forums will prove that anyone with real industry affiliations can count on being vilified and ridiculed. No one above a simple retail salesman or store owner is going to post specifics about their affiliation to the industry on this forum. Those who have have lived to regret it. Sorry.

Code Of Ethics:
We do not condone members hiding behind a veil of anonymity so they can push there own agenda, promote their own business or products, or create negative posts about their competitors and/or competitive products.[/b]

This doesn't address another issue, that being dealers and salesmen who don't hide who they are, but still push their own agenda, promote their own business or products, and create negative posts about their competitors and competitive products. PaulY and Steve Cohen are both guilty of all these things. Now, show me a post where I promoted any product, brand, or spoke negatively about any brand (the Superstore fiasco excepted).

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#238445 - 04/19/06 09:16 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianobuilder:
No one above a simple retail salesman or store owner is going to post specifics about their affiliation to the industry on this forum. Those who have have lived to regret it. Sorry. [/b]
Hence the dearth of people who are actually in the industry at anything above the retail level.

Take careful note of the abuse heaped on Sally Phillips, Frank Woodside and Jeff Dunmire as of late.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238446 - 04/19/06 09:20 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
and then of course all the socks who are industry affiliated reveal nothing.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#238447 - 04/19/06 09:22 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
pianobuilder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 94
 Quote:
Take careful note of the abuse heaped on Sally Phillips, Frank Woodside and Jeff Dunmire as of late.
Exactly. Also, take careful note of who it is that insists on demanding specifics, when they demand it, and why.

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#238448 - 04/19/06 09:32 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#238449 - 04/19/06 10:33 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Pianobuilder,

I have enjoyed your posts and leaned things. You add a valuable perspective. I have seen no obvious "dealer bias." Nonetheless, I think the clear implication of Frank's request is for you to post more detailed information. This can be done without, as you say, listing your resume on your sleeve.

I'm a simple country economist and piano lover with no ties to the industry at all. Monica is another example of someone with no ties to the industry. We both would like to see links to the industry clearly listed. Doing so is not a barrier to the free flow of information. Del is one example of a person whose ties to the industry don't lead people automatically to devalue what he says. The content of posts is, of course, the most important thing, but revealing potential conflicts of interest is the first step to defusing them. No doubt industry insiders are going to take a bit more heat for their views. That's probably unavoidable. Suppressing industry credentials to avoid that possible extra heat is not the way to go.

People who savage others simply because of their industry links ought to be ashamed of themselves. As I said, the content of a person's argument is paramount. The affiliation is secondary, and by itself is not a justification for ad hominem attacks.

Mr. Wilson in the current thread was not attacked because of his industry credentials, but because of his sales behavior. Many of the strongest points were made not by industry insiders but by ordinary piano buyers like ftp and Adrian.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#238450 - 04/19/06 10:40 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
In the end, what each ofus write will be judged by those who read it as to its accuracy and unbiased usefulness. Both of you, in spite of posting your resumes, will continue to come up short in that area.[/b]

Am I the only one here who sees something familiar in this pianobuilder dude's writing style (or lack thereof)?

ABJ is correct. The forum rules simply state:

"If you are or were a piano industry professional, please identify yourself as such so people will know the source of your "expertise"."[/b]

pianobuilder shows up here, tells us nothing about himself, posts as an absolute authority in pianos, and has a strange desire to defend and support a banned member who he's not supposed to have ever met.

Now I'm sure that *apple and Mikhailo will soon follow suit to jump all over me for this post. After all, that's what a good little Larry-groupie should do. But frankly, banned means banned. It doesn't mean 'come back under a different screen name', it means: 'DON'T come back at all!'.

And his determination to continue posting here like a leech that never knows when to stop sucking blood can only be dealt with by banning him each time a new screen name is exposed as being Larry.

And as for his minions, I'm with what Pique' said in a previous post. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for letting him manipulate you into being his mouthpiece.

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238451 - 04/19/06 10:55 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Who said anything about Larry? I listed the folks I was talking about. Ace, ol' buddy, you are the one who keeps beating that drum.

By the way, thanks for the personal attacks. Ax?
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238452 - 04/19/06 11:11 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Paul Y Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Nashua, NH
Those of us that are amonst the people in the music business clearly post out affiliation to suggest that we might know what we are talking about. Yes, we might leave ourselves open to harsh criticizm and judgement. But I think we feel that we professionally answer questions that are posed (based on our years in the industry). And those who ask the questions can accept our professional opinion or not!

I have always given my professional opinion when asked. If one is not a fan of the brand in question, those are the one's who think we have an agenda. If I state a fact about Yamaha (of which I am most familiar) and the poster owns a Kawai, it seems to raise the hair on the back of that persons neck. That, my friend, is not "pushing an agenda". If someone cannot accept an answer that might not please them, then they shouldn't ask the question.

While I can not speak for others, I would rather expose who I am and my affiliation to the music world than hide behind a veil of secrecy. It makes for an unlevel playing field. Sure, we might open ourselves to criticizm. But we help[/b] many, many more people than we anger.

By refusing to list industry affiliations, you are more apt to get criticized for your opinions! There is no[/b] way for PW readers to believe what you say without the proper credentials. Therefore, it is our thinking that you do not know what you are talking about.

So, those who choose to continue to "hide" will remain wide open for personal attacks. Additionally, all of their posts will viewed as having no value whatsoever. The choice is theirs.
_________________________
Retired Industry Professional

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#238453 - 04/19/06 11:17 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
Posted by Ace30
"Now I'm sure that *apple and Mikhailoh will soon follow suit to jump all over me for this post. After all, that's what a good little Larry-groupie should do.[/b]

*apple, you're up next.

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238454 - 04/19/06 11:24 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
Posted by mikhailoh
"Who said anything about Larry?"[/b]

pique, AJB, Norbert, Jeffrey, and did I leave anyone out?

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238455 - 04/19/06 11:40 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13969
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Mr. Wilson in the current thread was not attacked because of his industry credentials, but because of his sales behavior. Many of the strongest points were made not by industry insiders but by ordinary piano buyers like ftp and Adrian.
Except Mr. Wilson *won*.

Leaning back on his chesterfield with legs up on the table, he must be laughing his head off how this thread about him has conveniently digressed.....

Now what the hell was the name of those pianos his tried to sell on e-bay again?

Norbert \:\(
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#238456 - 04/19/06 11:42 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Ace's behavior is nothing short of provocation to stimulate conflict, the act of a troll. He knows full well that no post of mine has so much as mentioned Larry in a long long time. Ax?
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238457 - 04/19/06 11:48 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13969
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It was *me* who did.

It was simply meant as "shock & run" - this thread's gone way too much off topic - we're still at it by the way....

While giving *the man* the slip.

Larry?

norbert \:D \:D
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#238458 - 04/19/06 11:55 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
"He knows full well that no post of mine has so much as mentioned Larry in a long long time. Ax?"[/b]

And you know "full well" who 'pianobuilder' really is. When are you going to drop the act?

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238459 - 04/19/06 11:56 AM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Norbert, you may have mentioned it.. so what? What Ace refers to is his ongoing animosity toward apple and myself. He's the one who continues the drumbeat and tries to provoke with false statements and personal slurs, while the moderators evidently turn a blind eye.

This forum marginalizes itself by its fixation on Mr. Fletcher. This thread, which was pretty bad the way it was, is a prime example. The truth of Mr. Wilson seems pretty clear cut and not deserving of this much space.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238460 - 04/19/06 12:15 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
Posted by mikhailoh:
"Norbert, you may have mentioned it.. so what?[/b]

You asked "who said anything about Larry?", suggesting that no one had. I listed several names of people who mentioned Larry in this thread. You got called on it. That's what.

Also posted by mikhailoh
"What Ace refers to is his ongoing animosity toward apple and myself."[/b]

No. What I refer to is Larry being up to his old tricks again and the forums are worse off for it.
As I said, the only reason you aren't demanding 'pianobuilder' identify himself and his credentials with the rest of us is because you know darned well who he is.

Again, when are you going to drop the act?

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238461 - 04/19/06 12:47 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Ace - you should fill in your own profile and reveal your own affiliations before you demand that others do

btw. i am only a groupie of Bach
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#238462 - 04/19/06 12:47 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Ace - you should fill in your own profile and reveal your own affiliations before you demand that others do

btw i am only a groupie of Bach
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#238463 - 04/19/06 12:57 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
Posted by Ace30
"Now I'm sure that *apple and Mikhailoh will soon follow suit to jump all over me for this post. After all, that's what a good little Larry-groupie should do.

*apple, you're up next."[/b]

The gang's all here! \:\)

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238464 - 04/19/06 01:01 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
you are smart.. have to hand that one to ya
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#238465 - 04/19/06 01:13 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
And you accused both apple and myself of being Larry groupies, when neither of us had mentioned anything about Mr. Fletcher.. in short, you deceitfully and provocatively (see 'troll') mischaracterized our comments.

That's what my comment about 'who said...' was directed to, and you know that. But, in true troll-like fashion, you twisted it to suit your own twisted, small-minded and somewhat neurotic purposes.

I don't know who pianobuilder is, and neither do you. If it suits your neurotic vision to think it is Larry Fletcher, well, there's no accounting for sickness.

Frankly I don't care who pianobuilder is. His/her posts are relatively civil which raises them far above your own, and the agenda-driven attacks on industry folks I have seen on here.

So go crawl back under your rock and nurse your seriously damaged psyche. You can't win any victory here.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238466 - 04/19/06 01:16 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
So go crawl back under your rock and nurse your seriously damaged psyche. You can't win any victory here.[/b]

The gang's STILL all here. \:\)


"But, in true troll-like fashion, you twisted it to suit your own twisted, small-minded and somewhat neurotic purposes."[/b]

I twisted nothing. You are the one stupid enough to ask "Who said anything about Larry?" in a thread where he had been mentioned several times.

And I still maintain that you know darned well who pianobuilder is. And your calling his posts "civil" only supports that theory.

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238467 - 04/19/06 01:36 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238468 - 04/19/06 01:46 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
No comment huh? Can't say I blame you. :p

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238469 - 04/19/06 01:51 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#238470 - 04/19/06 01:53 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
Ace30 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 249
Loc: Nashville
Thanks mike! \:\)

Ace30
_________________________
I tried.

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#238471 - 04/19/06 02:04 PM Re: The truth about Ellenburg Pianos
pianobuilder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 94
I believe my point has been made by Ace30. I can tell you this for a fact, I have never spoken to either Apple or Mikhailo, nor have they spoken to me. I have spoken to Mr. Fletcher however, and he is finding this all extremely amusing, particularly the Ace30 fellow. It seems that Ace30 is himself a "sockpuppet", and has himself been banned in the past under a different screen name, banned for being rude and obnoxious, making personal attacks, most of them aimed at Mr. Fletcher.

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