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#2388497 - 02/20/15 02:08 AM Specs on paper vs overall sound
WillMedic Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 9
Had a slightly odd experience when in a shop back to backing Yamaha and Kawai digital pianos. Had already tried the Kawai CN 35 and CA 65 and felt the touch of Grand Feel and RH3 actions a bit noisy in the higher register keys almost too long compared to acoustic uprights and sound occasionally overbright and 'fake'

Was entirely expecting the Yamaha CLP 545 as the one to go for, with its decent samples and plenty of speakers though was hesitating a bit again with the noise and this time heaviness of the action and a bit of an indistinct register from time to time.

Then I played the Kawai CS4- on paper an entry level model in the range, a lot less powerful speakers than Yamaha, and older RH2 action and Progressive Harmonic technology

And yet....it sounded great- better than both the Yamaha and supposedly higher specced Kawai, and more importantly the RH2 action felt fantastic!

Why? Am I a sucker for ebony polish, or does that make a difference to acoustic property? I know the 2 way speakers probably help compared to the CN range. Being a CS piano, is it therefore subtly more geared through over design areas to feeling closer to an acoustic upright independent of the specs? If they upgrade it in March will they get rid of the RH2 action which paradoxically feels better for me than RH3? Or am I going mad??

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#2388510 - 02/20/15 03:19 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1997
Loc: Pennsylvania
Have you ever come out of a movie thinking ... "That was a terrible movie" ... and overhear someone nearby saying ... "Wow !!! That was a great movie !!!"

Welcome to the world of differing opinions.

You just go with what you like and others do the same.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2388513 - 02/20/15 03:31 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
peterws Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4071
Loc: Northern England.
I RECKON rh2 to be one of the very best on the CN24 and es7. Maybe the velocity curve of the piano kicks in here, to give a decent dynamic capability which has the all important feelgood factor. . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2388521 - 02/20/15 04:01 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
WillMedic Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 9
Glad to have found someone else that likes RH2 too! Yes I think it may just be a finely tuned sweet spot that is pushing all the right buttons. I know technically people say you get more expressivity and control with Grand Action, wooden keys, longer keys etc but ultimately I don't need to pretend to play a grand piano....an upright feel with keys that I feel comfortable without a feeling of notchy clunky keys will prob suit me best, and I think will still be plenty for my son to learn on, assuming piano teacher doesn't slam the RH2 for not being realistic enough to play the piano properly

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#2388534 - 02/20/15 05:22 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
Marko in Boston Online   blank
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 979
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Im one of the few that prefer the RH2 over GF action. GF is technically better action, but I could care less if one is better than the other.

DMD said it perfectly in his post above "You just go with what you like and others do the same." The RH2 fit like a perfect glove for me, more so than GF. And as Peterws said "...has the all important feelgood factor" YES! there really is a feelgood factor that only you can find when demoing pianos (or any instrument for that matter). Both spot on comments.

I can also say that the RH2 is very durable - not that it really matters quite as much in a console as stage. Nevertheless, lets just say it will exceed your exceptions over the long run. Over two years and 1000+ hours on those keys for me in every environment. Not a click, clack, or clop in any of the keys. As good as the day it came out of the box.
_________________________
KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | TRAYNOR K4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS 5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA

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#2388678 - 02/20/15 11:38 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
WillMedic Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 9
Thanks for your suggestions. Listened to your advice, played on them again and ordered the CS4 due to the action and the penetrating quality of the sound even with reverb on without being shrill (some digital pianos have a tendency to be a bit muffled in the middle register)

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#2388685 - 02/20/15 11:55 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
peterws Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4071
Loc: Northern England.
You`ll have much fun on that. And we`d like to see and hear it when you feel good and ready! grin
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2388704 - 02/20/15 12:48 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4536
Loc: Northern NJ
I think sometimes older engineers retire, get downsized, or otherwise move on, and hard-won knowledge critical to entire product lines is lost. There have been huge steps backwards in a variety of things I hold dear because low-information coders and other corporate drones now seem to be in charge of the details.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
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#2388759 - 02/20/15 02:44 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By dewster
I think sometimes older engineers retire, get downsized, or otherwise move on, and hard-won knowledge critical to entire product lines is lost. There have been huge steps backwards in a variety of things I hold dear because low-information coders and other corporate drones now seem to be in charge of the details.

Having worked for decades in big IT, there's so much truth there - even more poignant when you consider the rhetoric espoused by big IT.

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#2388785 - 02/20/15 03:41 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: Lester Burnham]
peterws Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4071
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By Lester Burnham
Originally Posted By dewster
I think sometimes older engineers retire, get downsized, or otherwise move on, and hard-won knowledge critical to entire product lines is lost. There have been huge steps backwards in a variety of things I hold dear because low-information coders and other corporate drones now seem to be in charge of the details.

Having worked for decades in big IT, there's so much truth there - even more poignant when you consider the rhetoric espoused by big IT.



Attach that argument to Government and . . . shocked
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2388787 - 02/20/15 03:47 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: peterws]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By peterws
Originally Posted By Lester Burnham
Originally Posted By dewster
I think sometimes older engineers retire, get downsized, or otherwise move on, and hard-won knowledge critical to entire product lines is lost. There have been huge steps backwards in a variety of things I hold dear because low-information coders and other corporate drones now seem to be in charge of the details.

Having worked for decades in big IT, there's so much truth there - even more poignant when you consider the rhetoric espoused by big IT.

Attach that argument to Government and . . . shocked

Probably appplies to any big organisation.

It's now more important to appear as if you're doing something well, as opposed to actually doing something well.

That, and things like controls and compliance really being a means to an end - but these days, an end in their own right.

edit: and just meant to say - in my experience, it's not because people at the work-face aren't competent, per se - it's that big organisations no longer seem to worry about whether they're actually good at the particular area of expertise, and no longer value expertise to any real degree. It's the tick-in-the-box mentality - "good-enough" rather than "good".

And the people that perpetrate it? They peddle the lie that it's what's good for the "business" or the organisation - but it's not true at all - that's a rather tertiary issue, because if you seek to point out that what they're doing isn't actually going to be good for anything more than the brief period they can put a tick in a spreadsheet as complete, and then move on. The reality is, it's individuals all acting in their own self-interest as "appearing" competent at delivering and moving on to the next thing, that's masqueraded as actually being good for the businesss or organisation.

Not that I'm bitter or anything...

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#2388801 - 02/20/15 04:20 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3992
Loc: North Carolina
There are some interesting points here, but they're painted with a very broad brush. So it comes across more as rant than as fact. I see no factual substantiation.

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#2388851 - 02/20/15 06:57 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: Lester Burnham]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4536
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By Lester Burnham
Originally Posted By peterws
Attach that argument to Government and . . . shocked

Probably appplies to any big organisation.

What's doubly bad is companies compete with each other via explicit policies to not share information that might otherwise move a technical field forward, and by actively undermining each other financially. I'd like to see some kind of arrangement that was less adversarial and more efficient.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2388981 - 02/21/15 04:03 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
WillMedic Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 9
I certainly feel sometimes durability is a compromise in newer equipment. At my parents house my my old Atari ST computer with ancient MIDI keyboard is still not missing a beat. Glad the RH2 seems quite resilient

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#2389002 - 02/21/15 05:43 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1997
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By dewster
What's doubly bad is companies compete with each other via explicit policies to not share information that might otherwise move a technical field forward, and by actively undermining each other financially. I'd like to see some kind of arrangement that was less adversarial and more efficient.


I think they call that ... Communism.

We (United States) have opted for Capitalism.

Just a different approach.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2389003 - 02/21/15 05:47 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dmd]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 439
Originally Posted By dmd
Originally Posted By dewster
What's doubly bad is companies compete with each other via explicit policies to not share information that might otherwise move a technical field forward, and by actively undermining each other financially. I'd like to see some kind of arrangement that was less adversarial and more efficient.


I think they call that ... Communism.

We (United States) have opted for Capitalism.

Just a different approach.


Whilst I see / get why some people seek to impose political labels, I'm not entirely sure I'd opt to damn opensource as being a communist ethos, per se.

Apolitical, more like.

Raspberry Pi?

Labels and boxes are often restrictive in our understanding - but a crutch of convenience in terms of people putting things in tidy boxes and categorising them.

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#2389048 - 02/21/15 09:52 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dmd]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4536
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By dmd
I think they call that ... Communism.

We (United States) have opted for Capitalism.

Just a different approach.

Regardless of what the approach is called it always seems to boil down to a few ultra rich power obsessed guys running our lives.

Cooperation is the only way things really get done - competition is a crock, and literally everything is fundamentally derivative in one way or another.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2389053 - 02/21/15 10:14 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
peterws Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4071
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By dewster
Originally Posted By dmd
I think they call that ... Communism.

We (United States) have opted for Capitalism.

Just a different approach.


Cooperation is the only way things really get done - competition is a crock, and literally everything is fundamentally derivative in one way or another.


Competition means a lot of development chugs along parallel lines. Might seem wasteful, but when this happens, the product will be a good one. Eventually. . . others catch up but the game has moved on by then, pushed by the big players.

Interestingly, much development takes place during times of war. But I rather think Digital Pianos will remain unaffected by this, at least until cessation of hostilities . . .





Edited by peterws (02/21/15 10:14 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2389060 - 02/21/15 10:29 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3992
Loc: North Carolina
This is what I mean by "rant":
Originally Posted By dewster
... it always seems to boil down to a few ultra rich power obsessed guys running our lives.
... competition is a crock.

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#2389065 - 02/21/15 10:40 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1997
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By dewster
Cooperation is the only way things really get done - competition is a crock ...


Well, then you favor communism. That is basically the philosophy behind it. Everyone does what they can for the good of all. No one individual receives any more than anyone else regardless of how much they contribute. Communism in its purest form.

In capitalism, individuals benefit for bringing an idea to market first ... so they do not share their ideas with others.
Not real efficient but the "profit" incentive seems to override that lack of efficiency in the long run. It seems to have worked for the U.S. for almost 300 years, anyway.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2389070 - 02/21/15 11:01 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dewster]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1738
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By dewster
Cooperation is the only way things really get done - competition is a crock, and literally everything is fundamentally derivative in one way or another.


Competition - arguably the engine of capitalism. Hard to say if we'd be materially better off pooling all knowledge and invention...maybe? It's a life's work, the seed of many a postgrad thesis.

But haven't the manufacturers been operating as a tacit cartel (cooperation of a kind)? Why else would we be forced without option to buy DPs with scant looped and stretched samples and no user-loadable options?

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#2389085 - 02/21/15 11:36 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4536
Loc: Northern NJ
Democracy and Capitalism are rather strange bedfellows as the former relies on transparency, the latter on secrecy. From a distance no one is really free so it might as well be feudalism v2.0. And label me however, but it's hard for me to see anything that blocks the free flow of knowledge as beneficial.

I believe the DP world is probably too small to practice information hiding and still function well, and I think we see the results of this in the marketplace with products way behind the technology curve, slippage of details we thought were solved, no one ever really getting it even 75% right, etc.

In the course of my Theremin research I've seen this writ small but up close and quite personal: those who openly share technical information push the field forward quickly, those who don't share or go out of their way to obfuscate things can actually pull it back. The fastest way to make the best Theremin is to pick the brains of those who know Theremins, otherwise you're stumbling around in the dark, reinventing the wheel at every turn. The fastest way to kill the entire field is to bamboozle the unwitting with hocus pocus and snake oil.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2389096 - 02/21/15 11:59 AM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1738
Loc: uk south
There's not a lot of money in theremin development so it's outside capitalism's purview.

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#2389112 - 02/21/15 12:27 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 203
YMMV - but this thread just got hijacked by politics and I know that's not what I came here to read about. wink

Back on the OP's topic, how nice would it be to have a dealer, show room, or warehouse where we could walk in and play all the various actions side by side? Even if they didn't stock them, you could place an order right there for direct shipping. This only ever happens at winter NAMM, which is highly inconvenient for most. I suppose that might spur a discussion on the demise of brick and mortor shops in favor of cost-saving online purchasing. But there are definitely certain things that are much better to try before you buy.

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#2389121 - 02/21/15 12:43 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: ElmerJFudd]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1738
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
YMMV - but this thread just got hijacked by politics and I know that's not what I came here to read about. wink

- then don't read it, it's a tributary not a redirection.

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#2389125 - 02/21/15 12:50 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3992
Loc: North Carolina
It's both a redirection and a hijacking.

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#2389130 - 02/21/15 12:56 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dire tonic]
dewster Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4536
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By dire tonic
There's not a lot of money in theremin development so it's outside capitalism's purview.

There's actually lots of money in Theremin development, but it's all negative! wink

Originally Posted By ElmerJFudd
Back on the OP's topic, how nice would it be to have a dealer, show room, or warehouse where we could walk in and play all the various actions side by side? Even if they didn't stock them, you could place an order right there for direct shipping.

If the various designations would stand still long enough you could, for example, try out a PHA4 on any Roland sporting it and get a pretty good idea of how it might behave on various other Rolands.

I wish a competent seeming firm like Renner would enter the DP key supply biz.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2389152 - 02/21/15 01:43 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: dmd]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3177
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By dmd
Originally Posted By dewster
What's doubly bad is companies compete with each other via explicit policies to not share information that might otherwise move a technical field forward, and by actively undermining each other financially. I'd like to see some kind of arrangement that was less adversarial and more efficient.


I think they call that ... Communism.

We (United States) have opted for Capitalism.

Just a different approach.



My very personal take:

1. We are imperfect.

2. Communism seeks to find the best in us and nurture it for the good of all to create a perfect world, but because we are imperfect it creates, instead, a monster of corruption, greed, servitude and inefficiency.

3. Capitalism makes a virtue of the ego and enterprise, and seeks to nurture them for personal gain and philanthropic duty, but because we are imperfect it creates, instead, a monster of corruption, greed, servitude and inefficiency.

4. Since there is no system that works, pianos are a blessed relief and a reminder that there's a lot of good to offset the ugliness.

5. DPs are imperfect.
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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#2389334 - 02/21/15 08:32 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: WillMedic]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3992
Loc: North Carolina
I'm not getting much from your points.

1. We are imperfect.
And the sky is blue. So what?

Items 2 and 3:
I'm not convinced that we're living in a monster of corruption, greed, servitude and inefficiency.
Yes, those things exist. But how is that a monster? Life's a bitch, and then you die. Deal with it.

Anyway, all of those things predated both capitalism and communism by 10,000 years or more.
Those are characteristics of humans, not of their economic and political systems.

4. Since there is no system that works ...
All the systems "work". Name one that doesn't.
Well, you named two. Yet they both "work". So what's the point?

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#2389376 - 02/21/15 10:59 PM Re: Specs on paper vs overall sound [Re: MacMacMac]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3177
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By MacMacMac
Life's a bitch, and then you die.

That was my point - ignore the politicians and banksters, and enjoy your piano!
_________________________
"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

mabraman, 2015

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