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Firstly, my apologies if this isn't the correct location for this question.

I currently have a Casio px-800 which I purchased new in 2010. It is played daily and I have not had any technical/electronic issuses with it. In fact I do like it quite abit.

BUT, there always is a but....

From day one there has been a mild thump to the keys, which didn't really bother me. The keys thumped no matter if I played ff or pp. Around 6-8 months ago the clacking/thumping of the keys, especially in the midrange has become very pronounced. To the point that my husband has said that he can hear the key noise even though the dp has been moved upstairs to the second floor!

The pedals I always found to be spaced too closely together but I learned to live with that; plus correct me if I am wrong, they operate only as "on", "off". I've noticed that at times some keys sound "brighter" than others within the same range. Am I the only one who finds the keys, both white and back rather slippery? I find myself slipping on to another key too often. Recently I began noticing I can't seem to get the same playing depth when I press down on a key as I do when I play an acoustic piano. Sorry, but I don't know how express myself in a better or more technical manner.

I am wondering if it is time to change dp's or am I being too picky or frivolous, since I began my musical journey just 5 years ago with zero musical ability. For someone who says they like their dp I don't sound too happy; but I do like it, though I think it's time to part company.

What I would like to know is this: what were some of the deciding factors that pushed you to purchase a new piano. Are you happy with your new dp? Or do you wish you had your old one back? Also, how long do people in general, these days keep their dp before up-grading?

Currently I have no one brand in mind since I am just starting my search. The new piano, regardless of brand, will HAVE to have the "furniture" look since it will be placed in the living room. Have a heavy touch, good speakers, standard spaced 3 pedals, and Quiet, Thump/Clack free keys. Are there any dp's that are "thumpless" or almost "thumpless"? Is key noise something that dp manufacturers test for?

Unfortunately the price range is $2000 or less so I'm sure I will have to compromise on some things.

I wouldn't worry about when others choose to upgrade. You sound like you want to, and IMO that's enough of a reason to.

I really enjoyed the Kawai CE220 console piano. I think its action is superb. It can be had for $1900 new, I think. So by the time you sell yours, it'll come well under budget!

All of the DPs I've owned have had noisy keys. I don't remember how noisy the Kawai was, I played it for only a little while, but that's something you'll have to test in-store.

Your Casio has already paid for itself through the money you've saved by foregoing tuning twice annually, together with the moving costs you've avoided by not having to hire a piano mover.

In addition, the prices of new Casios has gone down, whilst the technology has improved dramatically.

Treat yourself to a new digital piano! You've earned it!

I'm surprised to hear that key noise has increased so rapidly, suggesting something is wearing out between 2010 and 2014.... although you do say you practice on it daily. That's a great question for a Casio rep. I remember the Kurzweil PC88 with some Fatar action in it wore out pretty quickly, and I've seen/played first hand ones that literally click/clack constantly - although still triggering properly, but have not seen it since, and not on any board I've ever personally owned.

Now upgrading... oh my, well - in the dream world for an upright model if you can afford it take a look at the Kawai CA95/96 or if out of your budget the CA65/66. If I was going to go upright DP that's where I'd start these days. The Roland V-Piano or Yamaha Avant Grande's price range still makes me consider good quality acoustics.

I purchased a used Kawai CA63 for under $2000. Really liked the wooden keyboard. In a while I sold that and traded up to a new CA63 with Soundboard. And, after a while I wanted the new, improved, CA95. To he very honest, with my skills, the 63 would have been more than adequate to this day. But ... ... ...

Above all else, while looking, play these units until you get blisters. You will know when it is the one. Then, budget etc comes into play. Ask and look around. Maybe a used might pop up that will be a great value.

I wasn't completely happy with the built-in sound of my PX-350. But the action was OK.

I "upgraded" by getting a copy of Pianoteq software (with Bluthner add-on) for about $200. That kept the PX-350 action, and replaced the sound generator. Money well spent. I still use the PX-350 rhythms for practicing against.

. Charles

PS -- of course, buying Pianoteq won't solve the "thumping keys" problem, and the PX-350 is not suitable for polite environments. The PX-780, though, does have a cabinet, and a similar feature-set. You'll have to judge "thump" for yourself.

Tone Deaf -

My personal opinion is that if you feel it is time to upgrade, then do so as funds permit. Only you know when that time is, and you really don't need to justify it. Sometimes the physical aspects of our current keyboards become the limiting factor as we improve in our keyboard abilities. We can also start becoming more aware of the more subtle aspects of our current keyboard and come to appreciate an improvement in our overall playing experience. We are all different in these things. For some, upgrading won't become an issue, while for others, it will sooner or later.

My keyboards were/are a Casio PX-5S for its portability, sound, and feel, as well as an earlier Yamaha Motif XS8 workstation. Over time, I have come to realize that I don't need a workstation, but instead wanted a nice digital piano that focused on just being a digital piano. My wife wanted to do something nice for me for having prepared us financially to retire by saving for retirement, paying off the mortgage, covering her medical expenses, etc. Two things came together to pave the way to my "upgrading" to a Roland V-Grand (a part of the Roland V-Piano series). The local Schmitt music had one on sale at their annual warehouse piano sale, and my wife was diagnosed with cancer.

When cancer comes to one's family, that family's perspective on life changes. My wife wanted to do something nice for me as I go into care-person mode and I appreciate it. She actually insisted I buy the V-Grand. I sold my Motif XS8 only because there wasn't room for it and the V-Grand, but I kept the Casio PX-5S and will use it when we spend weeks at the Mayo Clinic so I can continue practicing in the hotel.

The one unfortunate aspect of owning the V-Grand is that it is expensive and people here know that. I was stomped on in another thread for having an opinion in a discussion about DPs because I apparently have no right to such an opinion "lecturing" others to be civil towards the factory reps that help out in this forum and for saying that there are a lot of people purchasing and using digital pianos who are enjoying them despite the fact that the samples are looped and whatever else the few here are constantly making negative noise about. Fortunately, others are starting to speak up about being civil and mature when offering opinions in this forum.

To me, the current state of digital pianos by Kawai, and Roland are quite good and getting better all the time. I can't comment on Yamaha because, for some reason, I don't see stores selling them in my area anymore. But my recollection of the Clavinova series was that it is quite good too. I don't think you will wrong upgrading in today's market.

Tony

Tony - FWIW I rather enjoyed your contribution to the other thread, so don't be put off by others.

And in terms of the digital piano thing, and there often being very vocal naysayers - there's a point I don't really get...

Plenty of people are reasonably happy or content with digital pianos - that's not to say they perceive them as perfect, nor able to improve. But there seems a contingent that appear to approach them with the notion that others "shouldn't" be happy or content with them, and should see them as the flawed devices that they do.

It all comes back to that saying I really love: "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are."

For myself, I recognise digital pianos aren't perfect. That's OK, though. I'm not perfect as a player. And their flaws and limitations don't detract from my use for practice, and enjoyment when playing. Now I'm sure that just makes me a philistine and all, but all the same, sometimes people get so focused on something that they truly miss the wood for the trees.

As an analogy - I have a watch, and uncannily, it's made by Casio. It's an analogue watch, from their Lineage range - and looks relatively normal (although it has a small digital window at the bottom). It's a reasonable quality watch, in that it's not an expensive watch, but not in the $20 / £20 area, either. It's a solid, stainless steel case, and solid stainless steel bracelet, has sapphire glass, is solar powered, and syncs from atomic clock signals on 6 bands (known as their multiband-6 technology).

Looking at it, it looks mature, and could easily be worn for office / business type wear, it's not big and chunky like a G-Shock, it's more like a normal, analogue watch:-



I only have one grumble (bearing in mind it's price point is around £120 (UK pounds) roughly) - the chapter ring, around the outside of the face, is self-coloured plastic, and when you look at it, it looks cheap (well it is) but it looks cheaper than the rest, and once you've seen and noticed it, you can't un-see it. If that one thing had been done differently - painted, or slightly different type of material that didn't look so cheap / tacky, it would have made a notable difference.

I think it's the same with some people and their perspective of digital pianos, once they've noticed something they don't like about the sound, it always niggles them. It may not be particularly significant or important, it may have no, or so little bearing on it's actual performance, but it's something that's always niggling them.

Getting back to my watch analogy, I could always be irked by this cost-cutting that detracts from the aesthetics, and although I can notice it when I look at it, I've put it in context. Yes, I'm aware of it, I'm not pretending it's not there, but I wear this watch a lot, day-to-day, as it's so useful to me, and it's only if I stop to stare and contemplate, that the one visual flaw (that I perceive) is that noticable to me - when I'm using it and getting benefit from it, it's not something that ever springs to mind - "Oh, that cheap looking chapter ring..."

Maybe the felt is compressed. Before to buy a new DP, ask to technician to change it.
Sometime it solves the key noise and it is easy to change.

uncontrollable GAS

The questions are good ones, but the title question hasn`t been answered.

Briefly, I changed my DP because the latest in the DGX range had several advantages over the one I had. I only ever buy DGXs because imnsho there`s nothing better to buy. Yet.

You`ll find the keys of all DPs clatter. Some are worse than others, so you`ll have to try `em out first if you can. I found the latest Rolands to be very good. But one could ask "for how long?" Every piano has key noise. Software pianos build this into there product along with damper pedal noise too.

I would try replacing the felt if possible. Shouldn`t be hard. You can get hard felt and soft felt, and if the lid is easily removable, give it a try! Then, when you sound out other pianos, you`ll have a good place to start and save time too.

To me ... purchasing a new digital piano is similar to snacking in the evening.

Once the thought of having a snack enters your head ... you may as well just get up and go get it because you are going to be downing it soon regardless of what things you attempt to do to avoid it.

Once the thought of upgrading enters your head ... you may as well just go for it. You are going to do it in the near future regardless of reasons you may come up with to delay things.

This is just the nature of things.

Enjoy you new DP.

Lester -

You have some good points here. By the way, Casio makes some pretty decent watches at several price points. I would have no problem owning one, but your points are well taken and the analogy is good.

I think that many of the points of the "nay sayers" are valid (i.e. samples are looped, etc. - though there are different perspectives/interpretations on it), but the delivery is all out of proportion in recent threads. What was informative for several years has become antagonistic and rude in many respects and even to the point that now both Jay and James are making their boundaries known. I wish it had not come to that and I hope we don't lose either of those guys because they provide real value and information to those who request it, in addition to be really nice people.

Thanks for the kind and insightful comments...

Tony

Funnily enough that was one of the things I found refreshing, when I first joined here - people like Jay and James posting here, and doing so in a very even handed way - when I first noticed their affiliation, I assumed it would all be simply about touting their companies products - but from what I've seen, that's simply not the case. And that, in itself, to me at least - as counter-intuitive as it might sound - is a good advert for their respective companies.

As to the piano thing, well I've always had a real / acoustic piano, since the age of 8, when I first started playing. I was taught / tutored for 10 years, around 8 of them going through the ABRSM grades. And in all that time, including plenty of instances of playing pianos for ABRSM exams, I don't recall one of them ever delighting, in terms of the sound.

Some of them were really rather poor, really. At school I'd encouter a couple of grands, which I played the odd time, but didn't find them inspiring. But then I was a kid growing up, you could have put me in front of a hugely expensive grand piano, and all I would have been bothered about was whether I was playing what I wanted to play, how I wanted to play it.

So this ivory tower notion of digital pianos not matching decent grand pianos, or even decent upright pianos - well that might well be true, but there's an awful lot of grand pianos and upright pianos that also don't match decent grands or decent uprights.

I lapsed playing the piano for about 25 years. That was at first because I was entirely unispired with what I was doing and playing. None of it made any sense to me, I was doing it either out of habit or commitment, not choice or enjoyment. So when I was old enough and busy enough to do other things, I did.

About a year and a half back, now, I decided to start playing again, and started practising on my acoustic piano, with the intention that I would buy a digital for silent practice - because the practicalities of the time I'd get to play, don't always match with when it would be ideal to have a reasonably loud instrument sounding off.

I bought a Casio digital (a Celviano AP-250) and since have also bought a PX-150 for an upstairs room. Both are nothing more than entry level digital pianos. But since having them, have spent more time practising and playing - but infinitely more importantly - enjoying playing. Some of that is being able to play with headphones, and fitting it in to times of day it wouldn't really be practical with my acoustic, some of it because I'm finding use of technology very helpful in repeatedly practising complex bits.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's nothing wrong in reaching for the best. And nothing wrong in spotting the flaws in current models, or the notion that there are things that should be improved on. I think where it takes on a life of it's own, though, is when it becomes an obsessive mantra, that's become a focus in it's own right - like the watch analogy - for some, once something is noticed, they can't un-notice it - even if it doesn't really matter a damn.

And at that point, I think it becomes an unproductive distraction. Because I think many choose digitals to fit that niche where an acoustic isn't tenable for much of the time they can play.

That's not to say it shouldn't be mentioned, nor that it shouldn't be brought to the attention of manufacturers. But often it's said to the degree where there's nothing to be gained, no other options. And at that point, who's it helping? By that point, it's transcended to meaningless rhetoric - this constant, negative overtone to any discussion of digitals, that after a while just becomes so tedious.

Most things in life involve compromises. The one thing I've noticed - those truly impressive pianists I admire, watch their videos, obtain some of their music and sheets? They don't seem to bemoan how their digitals are holding them back in what they do. Maybe they do so in private or with a more selective audience. Or maybe they just get on with it, and don't spend their time obsessing about meaningless points that whilst aren't ideal, don't actually prevent or detract from what they're doing.

As to the Casio watch thing, well I've been drawn to them in recent times, after previously being something of a Seiko addict - it's the solar / atomic thing that really draws me - the self-sufficiency. I've got models from the major ranges: Lineage, Pro-Trek, Oceanus (my favourite, if I'm honest) - my G-Shock I gave to my young son, as he was looking at it with "want" in his eyes.

Getting back to the OP and the question of when / what and upgrades, the choices I made were more about decent enough digitals for practice and playing, because I really wanted to become proficient again, more than anything else. I've personally set myself a target such that I'm not going to upgrade either, until I've managed to learn and master something decent and challenging enough, to consider it a notable milestone.

Until then, I'm going to practice and play, and when I've achieved, then it may be time for a little reward in something better (and for that, I'd had the Kawai CA-15 or Roland RD-800 in mind - depending on which of my existing ones I'd opt to upgrade - but that might well change depending on how long it takes me, and what's available then!)

Tony and Lester make great points.

I think the obsession with digitals is an excuse to avoid practicing the piano. Let's face it: it's a lot easier to talk about pianos than to play them. It's so crushingly difficult, in fact, that fora like this actually become negative places in what should be perfectly normal threads. (RE: the other thread Tony referenced.)

If everyone had to post a recording of his playing, I bet you the conversation would change. Dramatically.

Good question. I haven't upgraded yet, but I do get an urge quite often. I think the root reason behind all the excuses to upgrade is the hope that a better instrument will make me more efficient in reaching my goals. There is however a doubt that it is really so.

I wish they would. Then everybody would know just how good these high end pianos really are . . .

Tbh, the ABF forum has lots of recordings. And those pianos do sound good.

The only reason I would change digital piano would be if my present one broke down and was not fixable, or if the keys started to fail one by one, and replacement were not practicable. I hope this is not going to happen.

The touch and response is good - much better than the vast majority of acoustic pianos I've played, and I like the SN sound engine a lot but I also use a computer for extra pianos and other sounds. If I want an even better piano, I'll get Ivory, Galaxy or Garraton.

I slightly regret not having fake ivory key surfaces or three sensor action. However, when I think about it, it's really very unlikely that these features would make a real difference. Rarely these days do I spend hours on Alborada del Gracioso and suchlike - so why change?

The idea of having to submit our own recordings on this forum is an interesting one - it surely would focus our minds wonderfully.

The beginner forum does have their monthly recital. One goal I have is to get to the point where I can participate. I learning to play and feel that having a positive goal is very motivating. Whether requiring people to submit recordings would help to weed out some of the negative aspects of the forum, I don't know, but it has merit. Personally, I don't at all understand the negativity surrounding digital pianos. There is so much in the world to really be concerned about, if one cares to get involved, and music could/should be one of the bright spots in our lives.

Tony