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Hi, as part of another thread I asked the question, 'what happens to returned DPs, with the 30 day return policy' I was wondering if there would be some discount, because to me these pianos are now 'used' and not brand new.

The person who replied, said they did often try out DPs and other instruments and retuned them in good condition in the same packaging and expected and received full recompense.

Also this person regarded this as normal practice and suggested to me if I wanted a factory brand new piano, to buy from a store and ask that they open it in front of me to show that it is actually unused and new.

I can't really accept this, somehow, If I want to buy a new piano, after much research and decision making, that I would fully expect it to be new, unused and in pristine condition. How would I know if a piano has been returned, once, twice or even three times, then sold to me as new?

I just don't get it. I understand that if a piano is not suitable and you return it in new condition that you can receive full repayment. However, the piano then is not as new! and cannot, or should not be sold as such.

I am in part directing this question to Petersw, he is also a Northerner like myself and we are picky, and I did wonder if he thinks its ok to buy a returned digital piano, which may have been returned more than once, and would you accept it as new.

Please give me your thoughts on this, anyone, I don't think I would be asking too much for a brand new item, unused, and I don't think I should have to check in store and see it opened to check the piano is brand new to me.
Shey

Piano dealers can be like car salesmen, there are those that you'd recommended to friends and family, and then there are the other ones. It is very common practice to sell a returned piano as new, or show room or floor model. This is true for acoustics and digitals. At least in the car world you can look at the mileage to ascertain how new, new is. With pianos I suggest being home for delivery and inspecting the instrument before you sign for and accept delivery.

I'm in the greater NY area and I took delivery of an Avant Grande N3 that I soon realized was a demo or return only after signing and the delivery people were gone. There were scratches, a strangely installed pedal lyre, an after market bench, and I was furious. Rather than dealing with the dealer, who ignored my calls, I contacted Yamaha directly who remedied the situation by arranging with a different dealer to accept return and replacement with a new instrument. I don't know how often they deal with things like this but I was left under the impression that they try very hard to control the user experience and they have preferred dealers.

Anyway, that's the best advice I can give. If you're buying off the showroom floor check the serial number there and upon delivery, if you're expecting a pristine fresh out of the box instrument, be home for delivery and inspect and watch assembly. Make sure everything is as it should be before you sign off on anything.

Recently I have seen two used Kawai VPC-1 offered on ebay at a price the same as I can buy a new one including delivery. I was at the time interested to buy one of them but when I suggested to the seller that perhaps they were overpricing I did not get a reply.

Considering that there is always a risk that the seller is unloading a product with a problem I now feel that saving for longer before buying a new product is a wise move.

Some of these used sales at virtually new prices actually say "no returns accepted".

I never took Latin at school but I know the meaning of caveat emptor.

Ian

"Seize the day", right?

LOL.... Eh, yes?





you were joking right?

No, I believe you're thinking of "ad hominem".

Shey,

I can appreciate your concern, however I believe that if you purchase an instrument from a reputable dealer, you should be able to trust that "new" means exactly that. If an instrument is a floor/ex-demo model, returned instrument, or simply used, the dealer is obliged to advertise the instrument as such.

Some online retailers will also grade an instrument as 'B', 'C', or 'D' stock etc., with a comment explaining why the instrument is being sold at a discount.

Generally speaking, I don't believe you need to worry too much - especially given the stricter trading standards laws in the UK. And in the unlikely event that a dealer does attempt to swindle you, the local consumer advice bureau should be able to offer advice.

Best of luck with your purchase.

Cheers,
James
x

Thaks James, whilst you did put my mind at rest a little, this wasn't an issue I even thought about previously.
My original post was 'why pre order an Alesis Coda Pro when no-one has tried it yet'. (Or worded near enough)
One answer was, well if you don't like it, then return it before 30 days!
Again someone said it's perfectly ok to do this as long as the piano is in good order on return.
So, what if the pre ordered Alesis piano is not as expected, I wondered what happens to those returned, it might be very many or few, but if it's true that pre-orders are large, because it's new and its price point is low there could be high orders. So I think a percentage would be returned.
I just feel unsure now and if I buy new, I will be asking that my order is definitely brand new and not a returned item.

Also the reputable stores in UK offer 30 days return option.
Shey

It's hard to be other than ambivalent about it, wanting your cake and eating it. The option to return something you don't want is one of the treasured gifts of the consumer society. At the same time I really do fret that I've bought a used item posing as new. How can you possibly enjoy the thrill of an unboxing, wracked with doubt and suspicion? It always amazes me that amazon who has by far the most generous returns policy bar none always send me stuff that is conspicuously new...you just KNOW it is (although exceptions are reported in user feedback my pristine purchases don't tally with expectations at all).

In my steadier moments, I try and maintain a rational attitude. If it's scuffed or tatty in any way I wouldn't hesitate to ask for a discount having first checked as far as possible that everything works properly. Also let the dealer know that YOU know that it's pre-sold and maybe ask for an extended warranty (that might be hard-won).

As a matter of course, these days I always ask the retailer if he'll be shipping a brand-new unopened item. I think that ups the chance just a tad that they will make a point of picking out new merchandise simply because you've had the cheek to imply they sell used stuff as new.

For them it's just business algorithms: People who return stuff often get sent returned stuff more often (it's still "new"). And once you reached another threshold, your account gets locked, so you can't continue returning stuff, because you can't order it anymore. No human is ever involved into these decisions.

Amazing how much folklore there is surrounding Amazon. I've no doubt they have systems for signalling everything about your consumer habits and customers have reported bans. But an automated ban? No human referee? What's your source?

The tech press had it. Some lady got locked out of her Kindle because she returned too much stuff. So if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Sure they did. I think you'll find the systems alert one of their vast army of operatives who send out a standard warning. The operatives are human - no ducks involved.

Maybe some people deserve to be locked out of their Kindles, at least for a trial period - some customers are a royal pain in the arse.

- and yet, amazon's leniency regarding returns and try-before-you-buy has apparently proven itself to be a profit boosting retail model. It's self-regulating insofar as anyone taking liberties will be turfed out of the shop.

Well, my mean-minded streak earnestly hopes that you are right.

I remember a dramatic incident when I worked in a department store in the 'Radios' department. A man had actually purchased a Philips N1700 VCR - a major event in those days. However, he was not happy with something or other, but our boss was convinced that the customer was just belly-aching. 'Just leave him to me - I don't want any of you talking to him,' said our boss.

We all cowered behind the counter, craning our necks like giraffes in Noah's ark as the man came stomping across the Menswear department (in Armani suit and shades), struggling with the bulky item in his arms.

He was ushered into the boss's office where they entered into negotiations. The boss, looking flushed, came out after a few minutes - 'It's all sorted!' he says, and the man was given a full cash refund. It was 1978.

I'm conflicted - I'm not sure whether you're suggesting it was a) a good thing he got a refund or ii) a bad thing he got a refund or 17) you just didn't like him so had no empathy with him?

Truth be told, I think sometimes it's one of the problems with bigger purchases - like cars but other expensive consumer goods - the practicalities of returning something if a customer is unsatisified, and the industry and tactics used to try and prevent customers rejecting things can be quite dissuading - especially given the often prominent wordings that companies like to boast about their returns policy.

Lester Burnham said: I'm conflicted - I'm not sure whether you're suggesting it was a) a good thing he got a refund or ii) a bad thing he got a refund or 17) you just didn't like him so had no empathy with him?


I was reporting what happened. Although you are right that I couldn't help a few prejudices creeping in - the dark glasses in an artificially lighted store, for example. The implication is that he got a full cash refund by being stroppy (or what ever it took - we do not know what occurred in that office) whereas a gentler soul might have been shown the door. And that therefore, just possibly, computers handle this sort of thing more fairly.

You didn't just report what happened, though... your first sentence, painted some context, as did some of your other wording - you were clearly making a judgement, too. Which, of course, we're all entitled to - but in the end, many people in business, don't deal with customers as well as they should, simply because they largely feel the power is on their side, and they don't HAVE to do any more than they have, or think they can get away with how they're dealing with it - whether that's based on some crass inference about their appearance, or some other inference about their character. If the arrogant, shouty people get a better response, well clearly there's a reason...



I'm still struggling - are you suggesting he shouldn't have got a refund, or that he still should have but merely it's not as equitable that a more shy and retiring person would likely not have?

Something I've learnt, though, in business and dealing with consumer issues - as a customer, being assertive, and if necessary, stroppy, gets results. Nearly everybody is accountable, sometimes it's good enough to write down the salesperson's name, and ask for the store manager, or head office details, is good enough to focus attention the correct way.

Thing is, as a customer, if it's only the stroppy awkward people who get the best results, then that's the model others will see and learn from. When I was younger, I was probably far more passive, but as an adult, having somebody treat you as a child, is not the way to discourage them from rejecting poor customer service.

A very trivial example, some years back, now, I was at a cinema, watching a film in a busy auditorium. At some point, some kids were messing around, near us, not sure whether it was directed at us, but it was distracting from us watching the film.

So I went into the foyer in order to try and get some tame member of staff to deal with it. He came back in and I pointed to the kids who were acting up. I think he spoke to them briefly, and then stood there for a little bit then was about to make off. I said "Is that it? So when you leave and they start acting up again, I've got to come back out and find you? DO SOMETHING!" He replied (bearing in mind I'd probably be late 20s, perhaps early 30s at that time, I'd imagine he was late teens - student type age) "Don't tell me how to do my job" in a suprisingly stroppy manner for a customer facing employee.

I didn't lose my cool, I just asked him his name - and when he gave me his fist name, I said, "No, your full name?" whilst fishing out a pen and a piece of paper, and then said "And what's the manager's name, here?"

And that was all I needed to do, cogs turned, and the penny dropped. Completely off his own back, he went back, to the kids, and turfed them out.

Now I don't take delight in that - kids will be kids - but if I'm spending money to watch a film in a cinema, I'm not about to have it ruined by kids that know no boundaries, nor am I about to have to tolerate moody, self-absorbed adolescents masquerading as staff, not dealing with a complaint.

Point being, if it's only stroppy customers that get the best response, then don't be surprised if more people start acting stroppy. That said, I'd never be stroppy before my food arrived in a restaurant - either that, or eat anything after I had...

Well, I just thought it was a funny story. Even so though, maybe the single point that I did make has been reinforced by your illustrations, which is that - if a computer can handle the situation - then maybe a computer will be fairer than a human being. Since human beings are always going to be subject to threats, stroppiness, assertiveness, etc etc etc

Of course we should be assertive in insisting on our rights, but we should not have to be, and some people simply don't have the personality - why should they have to?

On the other hand, as I said way back up in the thread - some customers are a pain in the arse, and cause a fair degree of grief to staff for no very good reason.