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#2392247 - Today at 02:09 AM Let's talk about dynamic range
CyberGene Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 759
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I have mentioned this in another thread but think it deserves its own thread.

There is this infamous problem with most of Kawai digital pianos. When you use normal touch setting, the piano voice is too jumpy in its sound volume. By switching to heavy, this is partially fixed since higher velocities are harder to obtain unless banging the keys but that's not a good solution because you lose the timbre variation and it becomes very monotonous. It would be better to be able to compress the whole dynamic range (versus cutting the high velocities off) as in Synthogy Ivory, which means you stay in normal touch and can reproduce easily both ppp and fff however the difference in sound volume is in a narrower dynamic range yet you keep the huge timbre variations range. Please note this isn't a simple compressor. A compressor acts dynamically on the sound and can change the volume of a single piano sample differently throughout its length. In contrast, the proposed dynamic range limiter will change the whole sample volume by a fixed amount to make all them fit the narrower range.

What do you think of that? Do you know a digital piano having such dynamic range limiter that is specifically piano sample oriented?


Edited by CyberGene (Today at 02:12 AM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2392255 - Today at 02:48 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: CyberGene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1744
Loc: uk south
I can't help with your DP question since I'm using instead a VPC1 + libraries some of which have their own controls for widening or narrowing both dynamic range and playing velocity range.

But your posts seems to support what I was getting at in another thread (and still being discussed elsewhere); depending on settings, some DPs and sample libraries really can be more difficult to control than some APs. The relative difficulties depend on which DP (and settings) and which AP.

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#2392269 - Today at 03:35 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: CyberGene]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 942
Dynamical range is indeed crucial and it can be too narrow OR too broad (some Y pianos are overdynamic in volume, some R pianos are overdynamic in timbre, some Nord sounds lack dynamics).

Hence dynamics should clearly be adjustable. We need two adjustable parameters, in fact (ideally, curves):

1. amplitude dynamics
2. timbre variation

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#2392270 - Today at 03:38 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: maurus]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1744
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By maurus
Dynamical range is indeed crucial and it can be too narrow OR too broad (some Y pianos are overdynamic in volume, some R pianos are overdynamic in timbre, some Nord sounds lack dynamics).

Hence dynamics should clearly be adjustable. We need two adjustable parameters, in fact (ideally, curves):

1. amplitude dynamics
2. timbre variation

In Kontakt's on-board editing you have them both. Additionally, the contained library will sometimes provide its own independent control of both.

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#2392276 - Today at 04:44 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: CyberGene]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 942
I know, but that doesn't help with stand-alone instruments.

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#2392279 - Today at 04:53 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: maurus]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1744
Loc: uk south
I'm not familiar with the MP11 or any of the more recent mid-priced DPs but I'd be surprised if some element of timbre control isn't available - we know dynamics can be adjusted.

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#2392285 - Today at 05:17 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: maurus]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2455
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By maurus
Dynamical range is indeed crucial and it can be too narrow OR too broad (some Y pianos are overdynamic in volume, some R pianos are overdynamic in timbre, some Nord sounds lack dynamics).


A very generalised but frankly true basic assessment! The Nord's problems tend to be in the top two octaves. But I agree with you. Roland's over dynamic timbre changes (frustratingly on some notes only otherwise you could probably fix it with tweaking) is so frustrating because in so many respects they've nailed it. Talking purely about Supernatural here. I wonder if there are piano voices on RD-800 not afflicted. I could possibly be tempted if so.

However I wasn't aware of an "infamous" problem with most Kawais in this respect.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2392293 - Today at 05:53 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: EssBrace]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 942
Originally Posted By EssBrace
The Nord's problems tend to be in the top two octaves.

Yes, unfortunately. On the plus side, in most live settings, a somewhat narrow dynamic range may actually be desirable.

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#2392334 - Today at 08:53 AM Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: CyberGene]
WillMedic Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 13
Am currently working out how to set up my CS4 best for different pieces. I see what you mean about narrow dynamic range but to be honest it is not enormously different to comparable pianos I played from Yamaha (though I haven't played Roland). However not sure why you would lose timbre variation if you change to heavy action, surely the timbres are still accessible, just triggered by different pressure of hitting?

I find playing around with the brilliance can help

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#2392355 - 11 minutes 3 seconds ago Re: Let's talk about dynamic range [Re: WillMedic]
Charles Cohen Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1704
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I think there are three separately-adjustable things here: (I'm thinking in DP terms, not acoustic-piano terms):

1. The "touch curve" -- the relationship between how hard you strike a key, and the MIDI velocity that is generated;

2. The curve that relates "MIDI velocity" to _volume_ (loudness);

3. The curve that relates "volume" to _timbre_.

Pianoteq (even Pianoteq Stage) gives you access to (1) and (2). (1) is "direct" -- you can draw it on the screen.

(2) is controlled by a "dynamics slider", which sets the overall dynamic range (ppp to fff) of the piano. In my experience, 30 dB or less is dull. 60 dB or more is unplayable (for me). The volume is too sensitive to my touch, and I can't play a scale evenly.

I don't think you can control (3) in the Stage version.

I know that Roland, in its high-end models, does have a parameter for "How much timbre variation with increasing loudness do you want?". It sets (more or less) the "SuperNaturalness" of the sound. That's (3).

. Charles

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