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Joined: Mar 2010
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Have got so many useful information here for my entire piano history!!!
Now I am start to look around to upgrade to a grand piano. My 3 kids between 6 to11, all take piano lesson and did achieve quite a bit, and starts to show their passion now, not as much as expected :-) So I think it will be good time to upgrade. I practice sometime when possible. I am a beginner adult, just learning with my kids along.
I dropped by local music store one day and tried the new YAMAHA c3x, really impressed. But it is quite bit more than what I can afford. I have played a few C3 before. After trying on that C3x, I will prefer the C3X for sure. I think I can wait for a good price used c3 showing up if I am patient enough. But I want to look some used/rebuild steinway, looks like that is highly recommended as well.
I tried a 1935 steinway L, one owner piano, the previous owner passed away. She was a piano teacher at university. According to the technician, a very reputable one, who has been maintaining the piano for more than 20+ years, since the owner moved to canada. The piano is like new, technical wise. The hammer (not steinway, but a top, better than steinway hammer) was replaced a couple of years ago, and not really been used afterwards. Action is redone 7, 8 years ago. pin, pin block, string, bridge, sound board, all in almost perfect condition. The piano has been regulated to perfect as well. The case is not perfect.
The piano sounds beautifully, much better than my U3 at home. And 2 other steinway, L & B, I tried at a local store.
But I always feel the steinway key is heavier than the few other piano I tried. So I requested the technician to measure the touch weight for me. The result is between 65 - 75. After googling around, I found that is far heavier than current standard, which is around 50gram.
Seems some teachers will ask their student to practise on heavy piano so they can play on anything they might have. But that may cause injury, right? Especially, I am worried for my 9 and 6 year old. They will practice roughly 30 to 45 minutes everyday.
I am not pushing my kids practise or compete. If they can do it, I will encourage them. But not forcing.
My 11 year old boy says it is heavier but it is ok for him. He played heavier piano in local festival, normally concert size Steinway. My 9 year old told me it is really hard for her to bring the sound out. My 6 year old can’t finish his piece on it, partially I think because the bench is not adjustable and too low for him.
Now I am not sure. This piano looks like a very good candidate, about half price of a new c3x. Beautiful tone, should last for a long time. But the heavy touch bugs me.
Thanks for all your input.
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Welcome to Piano World, Fang.
Touch weight is a function of regulation, and is something that a good technician should be able to adjust to your kids' needs. I would first focus on the condition of the instrument you're considering (as you have been), as well as the tone and sound. Listen to some great recordings of piano with your kids, then go see these pianos with your kids and discuss the tones that please you and the ones that may have some irregularities.
If you can budget for regulation, I would not be as concerned with touch weight. Most Steinways--especially the larger ones--are regulated to have a heavier touch from what I understand. A 9 year old may indeed need a lighter touch weight or time to adjust. 65+g does seem a bit heavy, in my opinion, but I am not classically trained, so take it with a grain of salt.
If you are considering a used instrument, especially one that is 80 years old and has had significant restoration, I would absolutely make sure that you have a qualified technician examine and inspect it before making an offer.
I would be remiss in not mentioning that if you're not completely sold on Steinway (which it seems you arent, considering the Yamaha) you may want to explore some other brands, such as Kawai and Hailun. You could get a 7' Hailun 218 for way less than a new C3x, for example. Where do you live, if I may ask?
2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Matriarch | ASM Hydrasynth 49 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 10 Rev4 | Yamaha ModX 61
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I don't think touchweight is always a function of regulation Markarian? It's not "usual" regulation anyway. It is good for a Steinway to be heavier because it is designed that way. Quote from an older thread: Steinway actions are historically heavy for the very reason Ted stated - greater dynamic control. 68 grams is quite normal for a Steinway.
Lighter keys will allow you to play faster, heavier keys offer greater expression.
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I live in Vancouver Island, close to Seattle, just need to cross the ocean :-)
But there are very limited resources on the island.
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Steinway actions are historically heavy for the very reason Ted stated - greater dynamic control. 68 grams is quite normal for a Steinway.
Lighter keys will allow you to play faster, heavier keys offer greater expression. Greetings, NO. 68 grams is NOT quite normal for a Steinway grand piano. You should expect a range of 52-56 in the bass, 50-48 across the middle, and usually descending to around 45 near the top. These are average resistances, and will vary on any of the stock Steinway actions. I would be concerned asking a 9 year old to use a piano this heavy. What is normal on a 1935 Steinway is that new parts are often installed that don't match the weight or geometry of the original. This is the normal result when using new factory parts on pre WWII actions. They are NOT the same as the old ones and the factory doesn't sell original weight hammers. I am not sure how regulation will change the down-weight of an action, either. It changes the control and ease, but not the weight. Regards,
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The heavy Steinway would be fine provided that it's not the only instrument they practice on. It would be ideal to have it plus a good slab type digital with headphones. Going back and forth between very different instruments will help develop the ability to adapt. The Steinway is OK for your 11 year old, and your 6 year old will be 11 before you know it. The children will grow into the piano.
Also, it isn't necessary to own every piano they play. If they have friends who are also learning to play, you could trade practice time on each others' pianos. Bottom line, the more different instruments they have access to, the better they'll learn to adapt.
-- J.S. Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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If I bought the Steinway, that will be the major piano they practice on. I have a yamaha digital (weighted keys), $1800 when bought 7 years ago, when started.
Currently, they rotate their time on digital and the U3. U3 will be sold after I upgrade. U3 is fine and well maintained, but I do feel it sounds too bright and not rich enough.
I need to go to Vancouver to check any other brand, e.g. Hanlun, each trip will cost at least a day and $150+ fro the transit alone. I could not even try on a new Kawai on the past weekend. And if there is one in stock, it will be RX2. If I want to try RX3, need special order. If I want to try shigeru, I have to go to Vancouver.
It's a very good idea to exchange piano time. I will see whether I can make it into reality.
More comments?
Last edited by Fang; 03/02/15 03:39 PM.
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Er... I really don't think having children practising on a piano with such a heavy touch is a good idea, sorry. Someone here quoted that a heavier touch will give you more expression and that is simply not true.
You should have the piano regulated properly as soon as possible, and see if this can be sorted.
YAMAHA Artist
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This piano has been regulated (4 or 5 hours spent ) last month and evenly played.
Since I did ask for the touch weight, the technician brought the tool to give me the measurement. The few minutes I spent on it, I do need to use actual strength to get the sound I want.
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I am not a fan of the heavy-touch-weight-to-develop-students'-fingers school of thought. In the long run, anything above "medium" is too much for advanced literature. Concert grands, on which students play recitals and compete, SHOULD feel light and buttery. Often, someone who selects a university recital hall piano will choose one with a heavy action, again to "develop the fingers." At some point, developing should be done, and playing freely and easily should be the focus.
Anyway, people disagree on this. I am coming from the perspective of having a rather heavy, older Kawai action that has been regulated and lubricated to death to tame it.
WhoDwaldi Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
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Hmmm. It should be enough that weight produces the tone, even in a child. I spend a lot of time teaching young children to play the piano so I've experience of this.
If the piano is too heavy it will just cause tension related problems in the pianist.
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Often, someone who selects a university recital hall piano will choose one with a heavy action, again to "develop the fingers.". I think this idea is outdated. I'd go into the details some other time, but suffice it to say that we don't need much strength to play a piano. Stamina, yes; strength, no. Playing the piano at a high level is more like running the marathon than lifting weights. Her's something very important: you spoke simply of "touchweight". That's not the whole story. The difference between downweight and upweight will indicate how much friction is in the action: if there is too much friction the tech should do something about it, because friction makes the action stiffer and thus more tiring to play. Here's an article that goes into more detail about touchweight. Personally I prefer a light touchweight, but I don't think the weight you mention will in itself be damaging to young fingers (as long as friction is reduced to a minimum). Much more important is how the kids learn to use their hands, arms and indeed whole body when playing. It's never too early to start learning the principles of a healthy technique. Ask your teacher about principles of healthy piano playing that will permit playing the piano without risk of straining muscles or tendons. If the teacher pooh-poohs the idea, or says that the children are too young to learn that sort of stuff, look for another teacher.
Steinway A grand (1919), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Kawai ES-100 (2019)
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Thanks all.
As far as I remember, the technician showed me the action part and explained to me why it is in the good/excellent shape/response? I do not know much about the touchweight until I got home and searching.
I will ask the technician to check both down weight and up weight again. And I can't recall whether he has the damper pedal lift or not when he measure the weight.
I do think the chair will help to put a little bit more body / arm weight will help. My piano teacher mentioned that a few times before. Slightly heavier than standard sounds ok for me after reading all the informations online. But can't be too heavy.
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If the touchweight after 4 or 5 hours of regulation work is 65-75 g, then there's something else wrong here involving the parts themselves. I would not find that an acceptable solution for the 3-5 hour practice days I have when preparing recitals. I would look elsewhere.
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This is a fairly complicated subject but a Steinway L with a 68 gram downweight is wrong. As Ed pointed out, a likely culprit is incorrect Steinway factory action parts with the wrong geometry and/or weight.
It is likely that the piano has the original keyset and the original lead pattern. It is also likely that a Steinway L from the 30s with the original leads is a medium to high mass action. If the "better than factory" hammers are also on the heavy side ( again, a good bet ) then at 68 grams downweight you have a very dysfunctional action.
I have played actions with high downweight and extremely low mass that felt pretty good. It is not my favorite approach, but it can work. Very unlikely that is what is going on here.
So, as to the original question, is this action dangerous to practice on? For someone with a fully developed and extremely efficient technique, it is far from ideal, but they would be able to work with it. For children, this type of action can cause real problems from injuries to quitting piano because it is just so hard to play.
I would recommend not buying this piano unless it was in the mid 50s for downweight. Regulation might be part of it, there might be bad friction also contributing, but likely there is something more fundamentally wrong in the action's geometry and/or excess mass.
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In spite of the piano having been maintained, I can see a few possibilities in your description.
1. You state that the hammers have been replaced, but are you certain the shanks and flanges are new as well? If not, the flanges are most likely gummed up with verdigris, a greenish gunk caused by a long-ago chemical reaction between centerpin and bushing cloth.
2. If the hammer flanges are new, what about the wippen, jack, and repetition lever flanges? Again, a 1930s Steinway with any original flanges is very likely to suffer from greatly increased friction due to verdigris. Look at all the flanges; often the problem is easily visible.
3. The knuckles and/or the repetition lever spring slots could be coated with graphite that's become clotted up; graphite was a common lubricant in decades past.
4. Check the key bushings. Just last week I had to fix a "rebuilt" 1960s Steinway action that bordered on the unplayable. Whoever overhauled the action did a careless job rebushing the keys; once that was addressed the piano played like lightning.
Kent Burnside Registered Piano Technician Franklin TN 37064
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While it is possible that practicing a piano with a very heavy action might improve finger strength(Serkin supposedly always practiced with the lid closed and made his students do the same), it is not true that practicing on such a piano will allow a student to play easily on any other piano.
Why buy a piano that may have serious action issues that make it extremely hard to play in the hope they could be fixed later? I think there are way, like Stanwood action adjustment, that can make any piano lighter these can cost many thousands of dollars. Even then, it's possible that a person might not like the feel of the piano.
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Kent Burnside makes good points. I saw it said in the OP that the action was "redone" 7 years ago, but what does that mean. If the original wipps and shanks and flanges are still there, verdigris could easily be a big problem. Could be a number of things contributing to friction issues.
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The only thing that keeps me thinking about the piano, is the sound. It's such a beautiful sound. I don't have sensitive ears, I don't really know anything about piano until my oldest son started piano about 7 years ago. Most grands I touched are at practice rooms, which varies a lot and normally very old. I bet majority of them were donations. But this S&S produced most beautiful sound I ever heard closely :-)
Maybe I just need to be patient to wait for something pops up locally
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Might be a good idea to have Yurgen from Piano Forte or Vernhjak check it out.
Get some experienced answers first hand.
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Piano
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Piano
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