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#2393101 - 03/03/15 12:40 AM Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
Started this piece tonight but the edition I'm using is awful. Anybody know where I can buy a good score of this?

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2393221 - 03/03/15 09:25 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
which edition are you using? have you searched on the internet for alternatives?
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2393265 - 03/03/15 11:15 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
I'm using the original published edition. I was hoping to get something that was professionally edited instead of some random score off the internet.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2393282 - 03/03/15 12:05 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
why settle for something random on the internet?

there's http://blueblackjazz.com/en/transcription/74/74-james-p-johnson-carolina-shout-transcription-pdf (from an original piano roll, evidently)

another transcription
http://www.fvstore.com/JAMES-P-JOHNSON-PIANO-SONG-BOOK-1945-JAZZ-Sheet-Music/p301109.html

also this article by ethan iverson

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/in-search-of-james-p-johnson.html

sums up much of what is published and available (evidently there's not a lot that's available and totally accurate as you've noted ....)

here's another (academic) source of information with at least 3 pages of the shout ....

https://basinstreettobirdland.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/martin-on-james-p1.pdf

what you want (a totally edited note perfect edition) may or may be out there and it depends on what you mean by "professionally edited" ... the internet is your friend in helping you get to the bottom of it. hope this helps .... i know it's not perfect.
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2393286 - 03/03/15 12:17 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
I just meant that I'd heard the piece before but when I got the score there were things in it that didn't sound right, and I know popular music sheets from that era for mass consumption were either rewritten out of recognition to make them easier to play, and/or full of bad arrangements and wrong notes, that if I was going to learn this I should work off a correct score.

Thanks for the links.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2393324 - 03/03/15 02:00 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 22199
Loc: Oakland
More than one great pianist learned it by following the depressed keys on a player piano.
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Semipro Tech

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#2393363 - 03/03/15 03:44 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
Thanks for the help I can't afford to buy this now but I will when I have the money. Tax season and all.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2393699 - Yesterday at 11:25 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hidden son of Teddy Wilson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 116
You still haven't said what edition you're using.
I don't think there's an "original published edition".

If you go to the link Mark gave you :
http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/in-search-of-james-p-johnson.html

about two thirds down is the original score, which is pretty useless.

I don't think James P. Johnson ever bothered to write all the notes down like Scott Joplin did.

It's important to realize that when James P. Johnson himself recorded the piece he
and played it differently every time. If he were to play it another time it would be different again.

Also, all the other pianists who recorded it played it differently as well.

So there wouldn't exist an definitive score. This is at the border between ragtime and jazz so
it's composed, yes, but a bit loose - you can take some liberties.

I suggest that you use the score that you have a starting point and those places that don't sound right, well
you change them to something that you like.

Having said that, I think the Scivales transcriptions are pretty accurate.

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#2393726 - Yesterday at 12:01 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hidden son of Teddy Wilson]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
I was using the score from https://basinstreettobirdland.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/martin-on-james-p1.pdf but it's terrible. There's one place where there is a g minor triad in the left hand and a b minor triad in the right hand, if you can believe that.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2393889 - Yesterday at 06:32 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hidden son of Teddy Wilson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 116
Well that certainly doesn't qualify as "original published edition".

It looks like a transcription of the 1944 version- way after the "original" was created.
In 1944 he played it very differently from the earlier versions- faster and less heavy-ragtimy-piano rolly.
In some respects I like it a lot, just like I do the others which have their own qualities.

Like I said - take all of them and build your own to suit your own taste. I used to like it fast
kind of like Fats Waller did, but these days I like it a little slower and closer to the 1921 version.

You're allowed to do your variations and change your mind from time to time, it's not set in stone!

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#2393901 - Yesterday at 07:05 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
I'm doing changes but I'm holding off until I can get a transcription.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2393905 - Yesterday at 07:17 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hidden son of Teddy Wilson]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By Hidden son of Teddy Wilson
You still haven't said what edition you're using.
I don't think there's an "original published edition".

If you go to the link Mark gave you :
http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/in-search-of-james-p-johnson.html

about two thirds down is the original score, which is pretty useless.

I don't think James P. Johnson ever bothered to write all the notes down like Scott Joplin did.


James P and Scott Joplin are two different things really ... Joplin was composing out his rags and putting them into fixed form. Whereas the lead sheet in the dothmath blog post is just that - it's the lead sheet James P filed with the Library of Congress (explained in the blog post by EI).

It's worth it to go to iTunes and look up Caroline Shout .... you get Will The Lion Smith, James P, Judy Carmichael, Fats Waller, Dick Hyman, Cliff Jackson and many others playing it. I remember Jaki Byard playing it in lessons.

Here's Joe Turner playing it on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooiez45ustI

Here's Dick Wellstood playing it on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7eUxs0wN6o

There's a lot of info out there for whomever wants to track it down (and get into stride piano).
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2393932 - Yesterday at 08:55 PM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 841
Loc: New York City
Thanks.
_________________________
Learning:
J.S. Bach wtc book II prelude 19
Chopin G Minor Ballade No. 1

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#2394084 - Today at 05:30 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By Hrodulf
I was using the score from https://basinstreettobirdland.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/martin-on-james-p1.pdf but it's terrible. There's one place where there is a g minor triad in the left hand and a b minor triad in the right hand, if you can believe that.


What measure (number) is that? Am curious to see it! (Thanks!)
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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#2394101 - Today at 06:46 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Mark Polishook]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1747
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By Mark Polishook
Originally Posted By Hrodulf
I was using the score from https://basinstreettobirdland.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/martin-on-james-p1.pdf but it's terrible. There's one place where there is a g minor triad in the left hand and a b minor triad in the right hand, if you can believe that.


What measure (number) is that? Am curious to see it! (Thanks!)

- that's showing at bar A2-6. I don't see it as a problem. The B nat in the right hand passes quickly to Bb which ties in with the LH Gm triad. Played at speed it works out fine. But as transcripts go it doesn't seem to correspond much with the various versions I've picked out on youtube. Most of the LH root-chord-root-chord showing in the transcript is more often played in performance as octave roots or rolled 10ths with the 10th leading the beat.

I'd expect few transcriptions to be any more than a guide anyway although someone, somewhere, might have written out Dick Hyman's version since it's so cleanly played and easier to pick out what's going on.

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#2394113 - Today at 07:33 AM Re: Carolina Shout --- James P. Johnson [Re: Hrodulf]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 822
Loc: Leicester, UK
Thanks Diretonic for pointing out the measure number

That sort of dissonance comes up all the time in stride and other styles and played at speed–as you've already said–you'd hardly hear it–you can hear this kinds of clashes just as well in Chopin's piano music. In Erroll Garner's style this sort of dissonance is all over the place. Go to a more contemporary pianist like Clare Fischer and it's a keystone of his style. It is for other pianists as well.

What it comes to is Carolina Shout is an example of stride piano at it's best. Which means getting a handle on stride, but not necessarily ragtime, is the way to go–the essay in which the transcription we've been discussing explains that. So does Ethan Iverson, I think, in his dothemath blog post.

For another look at Carolina Shout, here's Branford Marsalis' recording.

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer...3559&live=1

It too points to the idea of the style rather than the exact notes being the important part. So with BM's recording the Jame P leadsheet actually becomes helpful.

Given all the different versions of Carolina Shout it would be interesting, well fascinating smile if there was a collection of James P transcriptions like there is with Jelly Roll Morton.

http://www.amazon.com/Ferdinand-Jelly-Roll-Morton-Collected/dp/0874743516

But of course it's significant effort to put that kind of time into something.

Anyway, one could say that part of what's coming from this discussion which is interesting for us all is "what is stride piano?" The answer's obvious to an extent. But for an interesting look at that question Thelonious Monk played stride when he recorded as a soloist. Imagine Monk playing Carolina Shout smile

I think this particular CS transcription has come up in the discussion

http://dichmusik.dk/Jazz/Carolina%20Shout.pdf

It's the one by Riccardo Scivales ... whether it should be on the internet or not is a different story but that's the link for anyone who's interested ...

Heres a Dick Hyman CS transcription (of James P)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/30890185/Dick-Hyman-Harlem-Stride-Piano-Solos

Again, whether it should be on the internet is another story
_________________________
PolishookPiano

mark@polishookpiano.com

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