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Originally Posted by Pover
Vid, Heather, and Cheeto, thank you very much for your tips! I genuinely appreciate the effort smile

Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance? Lately I feel like I have to work hard to actually get something similar to what I have in mind, and I need to work on the melody and "drill in" the phrasing before adding the other hand. Is this natural or should this become something basic? Maybe it's because I've only recently tried getting pieces to as high a level as I can.

I also find that I have to be extra cautious during the initial learning stages, because for some reason, fixing mistakes seems to be getting more of a problem than it used to be earlier. Maybe it has something to do with the level of the pieces I'm playing now.

Anyway, thank you very much for the tips! I'll make sure to keep everything in mind.


Have you considered that this phrasing, or the longer line, is something that needs to be worked on from the start and not the end?

The longer line is best controlled via the coordination and physical gestures at the level of the shoulder girdle/torso because it has the only ball-and-socket joint in the upper extremities and the natural rhythmic response of torso. It needs to be established from the start of the learning a piece, and not towards the end when trying to "polish".

Trying to string along a bunch of tiny little motions that somehow magically flow into this will take longer, because the probability of finding just the right combination is lower in comparison.

I don't believe in completely eliminating the other hand, except in a couple of circumstances. Radically simplify yes, but don't hang it by your side limp. Even just leaving it on the piano is better because the exact balance of activity in the body is more closely approximated than hanging limp by your side.

Consider this, bi-manual coordination tasks in humans seem to be strongly correlated with grasping one object with one hand, and using the other to make fine manipulations of that object. The "holding" hand becomes a frame of reference, which will influence your propricoception and motor-coordination learning. Piano playing deals with constantly moving frame of references between both hands.

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Originally Posted by Pover
Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance?
Not sure what you mean by this as the phrasing is often marked in the piece?

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Pover
Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance?
Not sure what you mean by this as the phrasing is often marked in the piece?


If that were the case, superlative performances would be more common. There's a lot of implied information in the score that are not explicit.

Last edited by anamnesis; 03/04/15 01:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Main #1 thing, by far, whatever else I do:

LISTEN smile


So true! Lately, I've come to understand the importance of listening to myself play the music AND paying attention to my body for any tension that might crop up.



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Originally Posted by anamnesis
Originally Posted by Pover
Vid, Heather, and Cheeto, thank you very much for your tips! I genuinely appreciate the effort smile

Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance? Lately I feel like I have to work hard to actually get something similar to what I have in mind, and I need to work on the melody and "drill in" the phrasing before adding the other hand. Is this natural or should this become something basic? Maybe it's because I've only recently tried getting pieces to as high a level as I can.

I also find that I have to be extra cautious during the initial learning stages, because for some reason, fixing mistakes seems to be getting more of a problem than it used to be earlier. Maybe it has something to do with the level of the pieces I'm playing now.

Anyway, thank you very much for the tips! I'll make sure to keep everything in mind.


Have you considered that this phrasing, or the longer line, is something that needs to be worked on from the start and not the end?

The longer line is best controlled via the coordination and physical gestures at the level of the shoulder girdle/torso because it has the only ball-and-socket joint in the upper extremities and the natural rhythmic response of torso. It needs to be established from the start of the learning a piece, and not towards the end when trying to "polish".

Trying to string along a bunch of tiny little motions that somehow magically flow into this will take longer, because the probability of finding just the right combination is lower in comparison.

I don't believe in completely eliminating the other hand, except in a couple of circumstances. Radically simplify yes, but don't hang it by your side limp. Even just leaving it on the piano is better because the exact balance of activity in the body is more closely approximated than hanging limp by your side.

Consider this, bi-manual coordination tasks in humans seem to be strongly correlated with grasping one object with one hand, and using the other to make fine manipulations of that object. The "holding" hand becomes a frame of reference, which will influence your propricoception and motor-coordination learning. Piano playing deals with constantly moving frame of references between both hands.


Nice post anamnesis. I do in fact work on phrasing from the moment I start learning the notes, unless there's a big technical challenge. If there is a new technique or technical challenge then I will work on that, maybe create a simple exercise or two to get patterns into my muscle memory, and then try to put the whole thing into context with shaping.

It's just that sometimes a passage that I thought was well phrased turns out to be kind of stale when I listen to a recording. It's at that point that I wonder whether or not phrasing is something that I should be able to do on command, or if it takes practice and "drilling" to get right, similar to note learning at times. I know the sound I want, but sometimes it feels like I have to practice continuously to get the sound there, and not just play it and do it. Sometimes it becomes "drilling" of the shape I want.




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Originally Posted by griffin2417
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Main #1 thing, by far, whatever else I do:

LISTEN smile


So true! Lately, I've come to understand the importance of listening to myself play the music AND paying attention to my body for any tension that might crop up.



That's why recording is such a good thing. It lets you listen without the distraction of playing at the same time. Alas, it also reveals that I'm not as good as I think I am when I'm playing.



-- J.S.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Pover
Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance?
Not sure what you mean by this as the phrasing is often marked in the piece?


yes I know PL, but I meant the execution of the phrasing sometimes doesn't come naturally, and I have to practice shaping the phrase (for phrases which are not marked in the score, too!).

Btw, I noticed that I typed message instead of passage, so I went ahead and fixed that in the post.

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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by griffin2417
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Main #1 thing, by far, whatever else I do:

LISTEN smile


So true! Lately, I've come to understand the importance of listening to myself play the music AND paying attention to my body for any tension that might crop up.



That's why recording is such a good thing. It lets you listen without the distraction of playing at the same time. Alas, it also reveals that I'm not as good as I think I am when I'm playing.



I'm also finding that listening to my recording also allows me to see where I'm making progress! That motivates me to keep at it.




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Originally Posted by Pover
Originally Posted by anamnesis
Originally Posted by Pover
Vid, Heather, and Cheeto, thank you very much for your tips! I genuinely appreciate the effort smile

Do you find that sometimes you have to "drill in" the phrasing of a message, or do you expect yourself to do it spontaneously/naturally during performance? Lately I feel like I have to work hard to actually get something similar to what I have in mind, and I need to work on the melody and "drill in" the phrasing before adding the other hand. Is this natural or should this become something basic? Maybe it's because I've only recently tried getting pieces to as high a level as I can.

I also find that I have to be extra cautious during the initial learning stages, because for some reason, fixing mistakes seems to be getting more of a problem than it used to be earlier. Maybe it has something to do with the level of the pieces I'm playing now.

Anyway, thank you very much for the tips! I'll make sure to keep everything in mind.


Have you considered that this phrasing, or the longer line, is something that needs to be worked on from the start and not the end?

The longer line is best controlled via the coordination and physical gestures at the level of the shoulder girdle/torso because it has the only ball-and-socket joint in the upper extremities and the natural rhythmic response of torso. It needs to be established from the start of the learning a piece, and not towards the end when trying to "polish".

Trying to string along a bunch of tiny little motions that somehow magically flow into this will take longer, because the probability of finding just the right combination is lower in comparison.

I don't believe in completely eliminating the other hand, except in a couple of circumstances. Radically simplify yes, but don't hang it by your side limp. Even just leaving it on the piano is better because the exact balance of activity in the body is more closely approximated than hanging limp by your side.

Consider this, bi-manual coordination tasks in humans seem to be strongly correlated with grasping one object with one hand, and using the other to make fine manipulations of that object. The "holding" hand becomes a frame of reference, which will influence your propricoception and motor-coordination learning. Piano playing deals with constantly moving frame of references between both hands.


Nice post anamnesis. I do in fact work on phrasing from the moment I start learning the notes, unless there's a big technical challenge. If there is a new technique or technical challenge then I will work on that, maybe create a simple exercise or two to get patterns into my muscle memory, and then try to put the whole thing into context with shaping.

It's just that sometimes a passage that I thought was well phrased turns out to be kind of stale when I listen to a recording. It's at that point that I wonder whether or not phrasing is something that I should be able to do on command, or if it takes practice and "drilling" to get right, similar to note learning at times. I know the sound I want, but sometimes it feels like I have to practice continuously to get the sound there, and not just play it and do it. Sometimes it becomes "drilling" of the shape I want.





I think the most important thing to learn about phrasing and shape is that not every note or figure contributes equally. To really get the phrasing you want, you have to layer in the details according to a tonal and rhythmic hierarchy. If your ear is listening to every note, then your supposed phrasing will often times sound stodgy and forced rather (if it's audible at all) rather than than spontaneous and organic. You have to train your ear to focus only on the most important ones first.

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OMG, that is the most inviting looking room. What beautiful practice tools and what a beautiful room. That is just so inspiring.

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Things I've found important:

1. While practicing very slowly, exaggerate everything from dynamics to articulation to physical arm gestures and rotations;

2. Playing slowly with your eyes closed; really helps with memory--if you can play each hand separately with your eyes closed, even better;

3. For perpetual motion pieces, or rhythmically tricky/syncopated pieces in 2 or 4 time, putting the metronome on off beats;

4. Playing fast pieces as if the tempo marking were "adagio sostenuto e molto espressivo;"

5. Playing slow pieces as if the tempo marking were "allegro misurato e secco;"

6. Reading the score away from the piano and imagining the sound in your mind as you look at the page;

7. Listening to multiple recordings;

8. Thinking about the piece and executing it in your mind away from the piano without the score--can be while you stand in line for something, while you're on hold, on your drive home (as long as you can do this while paying attention to the road), etc.;

9. Working on technical/memory problem spots in isolation, and then gradually them in context by adding more and more measures before and after the problem spot as comfort level with the isolate spot rises;

10. Always listening.

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