Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Help! Did kawai sell me a used piano?

Hi everyone. For quite a few months, I had been searching for a good new piano to buy. My first choice for the longest time was kawai k3. The sound, touch, action and everything else about that piano was really good. The dealer urged me to speed up my selection process and finalize it as the k3 was going to be discontinued in my country. (India)
However, one day when I went to the showroom, the k3 that I liked (which was also the "last" piece) was already sold but a "new" k3 was kept in its place (which according to him was recently ordered even though he previously stated that k3 was to be discontinued). Even though the action was fine, the touch and tone of this k3 stood nowhere in comparison to the previous k3. When I complained about this, the dealer told me that it was because the piano was higly untuned and because it was recently brought to India, I was to wait for a few weeks before it could be tuned and thus regain the characteristics of a good k3. Also, as according to him, the piano was new, its sound quality was to increase further after being sufficiently played (which is true in some cases).
I believed in him thinking that the k3 could not disappoint as I had already tested the previous piece a lot of times and bought it. When it got tuned however, to my horror, a lot of higher register notes have that harsh and bright tone which is completely different to the tone of the keys of the middle register which itself isn't all that impressive.Those keys also happen to have a terrible pianissimo. Also, all the treble hammers have grooves in them. This leads me to believe that the piano needs voicing which should absolutely not be the case for a new piano unless the tone of the whole piano is supposed to be changed. Is it possible that Kawai India actually sold me a used piano? The piano also has a lot of scratches on it which I hadn't noticed until it was delivered.
Explanatory replies would be very much appreciated. Thank you.

Hello to India,

I really have no experience in your Country but here in Austria with KAWAI. First of all I can not believe that KAWAI (if it is a certified KAWAI dealer) sold you a used piano. And don't worry as far as I can say here in Austria KAWAI has one of the best sevices I have found.

What I would do > contact KAWAI India. What you are experiencing is absolutely normal to a new piano > Not only it has to be tuned it also has to be "defined" and properly adjusted. I would really recommend to KAWAI Service here, because they can really work wounders on a piano :-).

The scratches sound to me more the responsability of the piano Transporter. If they are not deep they can be polished out easily. Mine had a DEEEEEEEEP scratch I noticed later when the piano was already at it place. KAWAU replaced the whole top board (of course free of charge).

I hope this helps a bit.

Alexander

It does sound like this instrument has had some kind of use. It may still be technically "new" - maybe it was in another store and was played a lot there. But I don't think a piano should be going home to you with prominent hammer grooves. Small ones would be ok, but they shouldn't look too deep on a new piano. Unfortunately you really need to play the piano you buy and be sure about it. When something is different with a substitute piano (and there almost always is some difference), it can really play with your mind. You keep thinking about the other one and how nice it was. It can then start to become a memory of tonal perfection - which may not have been the case.

I think you need to have a talk with your dealer and discuss what he's prepared to do to get your piano sounding the way you expected. If you start talking about returning it, he might think about sending a tech to your house to work on it. It still needs to meet your expectations though. If you can't get satisfaction, you should talk directly to Kawai in India.

I agree with Ando and Galuwen. You need to be aggressive about getting your concerns resolved. Even though you may be the original "owner of record," it's possible that the instrument may have been displayed and played in one or two showrooms prior to being purchased (thus accounting for the wear and tear you've noticed).

Kawai offers a full ten year warranty transferable warranty to the original purchaser of an acoustic piano. Did you receive a ten year warranty card or certificate when you purchased the instrument ??

@Galuwen Thanks for your reply. It certainly did make me feel better. However, what bothers me is the grooves. As @ando and @carey stated, it does seem to have been used even though I'm the original first owner.
@carey could you please tell me what the warranty card looks like? http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/PDF/Kawai10yr_warranty.pdf Is this what it looks like? I didn't receive anything like this. But what I did receive was a tag that had the names of the technicians and all who helped making the piano. It was hung inside the piano but that isn't really a concrete evidence of anything.

You are correct...the tag hung on the inside of the piano isn't concrete evidence of anything regarding a warranty. I don't own a Kawai - so I don't know what the card looks like - however, the pdf you provided mentions such a card. Usually, the new owner is given a card upon purchase - which they then fill out and mail to Kawai. Even without a card, a copy of your original purchase receipt with the piano's serial number should be proof that you are the original owner. I would certainly ask the dealer you purchased the piano from about the card - or contact Kawai directly. You might also send a private message to "Kawai James," brochure and owner's manual writer for Kawai Japan - who regularly posts on the digital piano forum here on PW. Perhaps he can steer you in the right direction.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/users/25185/Kawai_James.html

Thank you so much. I'll most definitely clear all my doubts directly from him. It'd have been fine if there was just a bit of problem with the tone, but quite a few notes on the higher register really grate on my ears. Makes me really wonder if reputation is all kawai really has.
Thanks again though

Please keep us in the loop and let us know what happens. I'm sure the grating notes can easily be fixed. You really don't know what has - or hasn't - been done to the piano. And even "out of the crate" new instruments often need tweaking at the dealer to reach their full potential. Some dealers are good about doing this - others aren't. The deep grooves are a bit troublesome to me - and are a sign of how the piano had been used (floor model?) prior to your purchase. Kawai acoustic pianos, when new, are generally of excellent quality. Good luck !

Will do for sure. Although I am not really sure if it is fair to call them deep. The grooves are there but they wouldn't have bothered me if not for that extremely irritating tone (it doesn't even sustain for long enough and won't give a good enough response to soft touch as I previously mentioned). Here's an image of the middle register. The higher notes look the same.
http://postimg.org/image/o20wta02r/

EDIT: Regarding the warranty, the invoice has nothing written next to the S.no. section either. I will talk to them regarding this tommorow as the store is not open today. I guess I was careless due to the excitement of having the piano delivered, given that I didnt notice this. Thanks for pointing this out!

It's a little more grooved than most new pianos I've seen, but not heavily used either. I'd say it's been on a shop floor for up to a year. The benefit of that is that such pianos have been tuned a lot and have stabilised. Unfortunately for you, it needs some voicing work. But it's not necessarily a deal-breaker. Once it's had some attention, it might be better than the first one you liked. But yes, you should be very clear on your warranty - you should definitely have the Kawai warranty card. Unless Kawai does things differently in India...

I don't see anything unfortunate about the piano having a little bit, and I do mean a LITTLE bit of play in time. Playing in the hammers a bit will give you a better idea of what the real needs for voicing are. Any new piano needs some voicing.

I know people try to err on the cautious side, but I see nothing wrong here. The top fuzzy strike point on the hammers will develop that much string marking during initial tuning and regulation.

Just my opinion, but I've only been at this for 35 years, so what do I know?

I just hope what you say is true and there's nothing majorly wrong with the hammers. Having not owned an acoustic piano before, I am not able to imagine how much difference can actually be brought up in the current tone through voicing. But seeing someone seemingly as experienced as you saying that it's not a big deal makes me a bit relieved. Having said that however, do you think that having a quite a few notes with a harsh tone is normal too? I had the impression that even though a voicing adjustment was made on many pianos, they still had an even tone, which is not the case with my piano.

If you don't like the tone as compared to the first one, then it needs voicing. If you don't like the touch, as compared to the first one, then it needs regulation. If, in response to your initial concerns about the second piano, the dealer told you that tuning would solve these problems, he grossly oversimplified the issue. In fact, I would consider it a lie. Tuning will not fix a disagreeable tone, nor change the touch.

Mmmmmmmm...but technicians say that proper tuning has a lot to do with reducing harshness and whistle-like tones (or I misread something).
Room acoustics are very important, too.
A bright piano in a live room is annoying.
To the OP : I have a brand new K-200 and the tone is too metallic, as well as yours, but before voicing it, get it tuned and treat your room.
Only then, some deep needling could change the tone of your K-3, for good...and for bad.

Geez Dale, what you said is not even very different to what I said. What's with all the "I've been in the business for 35 years, so what do I know?" nonsense? No need for passive-aggressive posturing.

I said the piano will probably be stable, tuning-wise. I said it needs some voicing, but it might turn out even better for him than the first one he played - for which he wouldn't have got free voicing included, most likely. I said he should check on the warranty situation. So what's the problem?

Just an update: Kawai will send a technician to my home to sort things out. They were very reassuring about the fact that the piano was in a good condition. I'll keep you all updated regarding this matter.
Thank you everyone for the help

Well, the technician came and did some needling to correct the tone. Turns out he's not really experienced enough at voicing and so he couldn't make much difference. Instead, a one key can't produce fortissimo as loud as other keys after he needled it too much. The pianissimo on 2 keys is a bit better than before but the tone still remains dull. The technician says that this piano seems to not have been voiced properly in japan. I am thinking of getting them to replace this piece.

mabraman, have you had your piano voiced? I'm experiencing a metallic, overly bright area in the middle of the piano, as well as some "dead" notes in the bass.

Not yet. I finally thought it was better to wait for the spring to come, and see how the piano holds the tuning. Besides, some people here adviced me to have it voiced at home.
So, as soon as I have it serviced I'll give you more info. I'm trying to concentrate more on the nice thing it has, and to get the most of it, as it is now.
As for the dead notes...I'm not sure what you mean. Are they lower in power, or dull, or don't have the expected timbre if you compare them to adjacent notes? Please explain.
My k200 has an average bass, so to speak. It's not wonderful and maybe is too sounding, but it could be my bad touch.
Maybe if you share some recording...

The string marks showing in the photo you posted are not significant wear. The tonal issues that bother you could be greatly helped if you could employ a piano technician who understands how to fit the hammers to the strings. By this I mean make sure each hammer is striking all three, (or two on the lower notes) at the same time. This will put the unison strings in phase when struck. Lightly shaping the fuzzy hair off the hammer surface with sandpaper strips could help also.