Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Concern about changing bass strings............

My Steinway AR has a new set of strings installed already, bass, treble...I don't know what brand. The piano sounds great, with plenty of sustain, especially in the 5,6, and 7th octaves. Don't know about the tone yet, as the hammers are original from 1928, hard as rocks. It's going to be getting the WNG carbon fiber whippens/shanks, and Ari Isaac's hammers.

Is this a concern: If we were to change just the bass strings, would this disturb the soundboard and bridge connection (downbearing etc) enough to alter and change the sustain etc that the piano exhibits now?...perhaps negatively? Original soundboard that has been shimmed, bridge is also original, and in excellent shape. Thanks, GPM

If the tension of the new bass strings is different it may have a very minor impact on down bearing but it would be so small you likely could not measure it. That is assuming the board has any bearing to begin with.

Thanks Gene....I thought it might be possible that disturbing the downbearing by removing and installing new bass strings, could change the sustain, and possibly the tone of the piano from where it is now. Perhaps as you say, the impact would be so small as to not notice it, hopefully sound wise as well.

I think what I will do is leave these strings as they are now, get the piano into my living room, and then make the decision on the bass strings, depending on how it sounds.

If you were that concerned about tension changes, your tech could probably replace them one at a time. That's what I do when I change strings on old and brittle guitars.

Appreciate the suggestion Ando, but I do not know how to change bass strings. Having a tech do it one by one would be time consuming and cost prohibitive. Not sure old brittle guitars are a good analogy to a grand piano.

I mean, change them all, but take one off, put new one on - to reduce the tension changes on the soundboard/bridge. All done on the same day. It's a perfectly doable thing. The only real downside would be you don't get to clean the dust out so easily. And it's not an analogy - it's actually an identical situation. You are talking about disturbing the soundboard/bridge with a change in tension. Things that are glued together and are possibly old and brittle can be disturbed by tension changes. Guitars have soundboards, ribs, bridges - it's a comparable situation, with some minor differences.

I see, thanks for the clarification.....perhaps that would work

I don't see though, how an old brittle guitar is analogous to a grand piano, with its incredible amount of tension on the bridge and soundboard. Old guitars, let alone new guitars don't have these attributes.

GP...the temporary disruption is something that is often done. The belly will re-equilibrate when the tension is re-applied. Just don't listen to the remaining plain wire strings while the tensions down, because the change in forces on the board could make the plain wire, only while the tension is down in the bass, sound lame. Ignore this, until the as-built loading has been re-applied.

I have also changed out bass strings and replaced with significantly lowered wound string tensions, without re-adjusting downbearing, and everything was fine, downbearing & tonally

I think you fail to see what is similar because you don't understand the guitar very well. But hey, it's up to you what you want to do. Just suggesting something that still applies whether you accept my analogy or not. I was responding to your worry - just forget the guitar part.

The comparison is not analogous. What it demonstrates is your lack of understanding of how the piano is constructed and how the sound board, bridge, and downbearing relates. Suggesting one do something to a piano as they would a guitar is flawed logic. If one is worrying about minor changes in tensioning the system of the bass section for fear of a bridge or other component coming undone, then you sure as shooting shouldn't be worrying about the strings.

Ask me anything you like, I do understand how pianos function and the construction of them. I didn't suggest that guitars and pianos are the same. But they do have a few things in common. Besides, you are transferring the concern of the OP onto me. It wasn't me who was concerned about pulling all the bass strings off his piano and the subsequent change in load on the board/bridge - it was him. I was only drawing the analogy as far as if there was a concern that the instrument is in any way brittle or unstable, you could change the strings one by one. Whether or not that is actually a good idea is irrelevant. I was speaking to the concern he expressed in this thread - the one he started the topic for.

So what are your credentials as a luthier? What is your basis for being so conclusive that there are no analogies to be drawn between guitars and pianos? You do realise that it's not just incumbent on me to prove that I understand pianos? You would also need to show that you understand guitars before you state they have nothing in common. I'll invite you to give me a list of reasons why guitars are so different. Keeping in mind that the guitar I had in mind was a tailpiece guitar which is literally the same concept as the hitch pins being separate from the soundboard (unlike a regular guitar). The tailpiece contains the string terminations which is anchored to the rim of the guitar i.e. the bridge does not contain the string terminations - there is no tension on the bridge other than the downbearing.

I have seen you frequently make sweeping statements about how lacking in knowledge people are. You seem eager to protect your domain by excluding others from it where you can, particularly DIYers. You don't even know me or what I know. It doesn't even occur to you that you might have misconstrued something I've said. I'm happy to get on a live chat with you are have you quiz me on the construction of the piano. I am confident I can pass any test you would like to put to me.

Just to clarify....I was not concerned whether or not the piano was "brittle or unstable"..if it were, I would not even consider changing the bass strings.

As I said in my opening post, my concern was by changing out the bass strings, would there be a subsequent change in the sustain, and possibly the tone, due to the change in downbearing on the bridge/soundboard.

So you are concerned about something moving/changing with the strings removed? If you think the soundboard is in good condition, I don't think you would have anything to worry about. It's only if you suspected something is not right that you might worry. Why should the down bearing change if you are using the same gauge strings? Are you thinking of rescaling the piano?

If you do not want the tone to change, why would you replace the bass strings?

I don't know who made those strings or how long they were on there before I bought the piano. Why change the bass strings if they sound good?...to possibly improve the sound even further...they call that "tweaking".

However, from past experience, just tightening the plate bolts on a 1920's grand piano, the tone/sustain changed. Hence my concern about relieving the downbearing on the bridge/soundboard by changing out the bass strings, and the subsequent possible change in sustain/tone after installing the new strings.

Would it not be possible too, that by having no downbearing on the bass section, all the bass strings removed, but full tension on the treble sections, the sustain/tone could be negatively affected when installing the new strings and bringing them up to pitch? Changing them one at a time as suggested would perhaps ameliorate that possibility.

I think what I will do is leave the piano as is until I hear it in my living room, then make a decision.

Yes, I think it would be a good idea to wait until the old hammers are replaced before thinking about the strings.

Since this is a forum about pianos and not guitars, any credentials I may or may not have as a luthier is, indeed, irrelevant and utterly inconsequential. To suggest otherwise is a straw-man argument. It is not I, as one with over 20 years in working on pianos and participating in a technical forum about the same who need to prove anything toward an off topic subject of guitars. It is you, as a non technical piano professional trying to associate only tangentially related parallels, who needs to demonstrate command of the design and technical execution beyond a Reblitz simplicity. Especially if taking the plunge in to the turbulent waters to offer technical advice... But since I also work with harpsichords, and clavichords, the relation there, which I also understand quite well, is much more apparent.



But yet you are by way of your comparison. Kind of a double edge sword isn't it, saying they aren't yet saying they are so as to use your analogy? Yes, one could change them one at a time. It would be needlessly time consuming, and the potential to damage new strings increases. Someone who has restrung a piano or few would be aware of these things, as well as the potential areas of concern to consider prior and during a restringing.



Here is a fascinating difference... If you are indeed so knowledgeable, what is the primary concern of a cantilevered bridge in a piano?



I hate to say it, but when one has a reasonable amount of experience, beyond reading a book and watching a couple youtube vids, the "BS meter" becomes as finely tuned as the ears I use to tune with. A lot of DIYers come in here after looking at Reblitz for a month, see a few vids, and all the sudden they think they're a deity. Some participate with genuine questions and a desire to learn. It seems to me a larger percentage come in to prostrate their rather limited amount of knowledge and try to offer advice they are neither experienced nor qualified to give. Some just come looking to pick a fight about temperament, or how they're going to make their free spinet sound like a concert grand, or a secret about piano perfection only they know. If you really want to impress take the PTG exams and we'll see how you do.



Since it is the subject of this post I think, actually, it is quite relevant.

GPM,

The plate and struts on my pianos were all too keen to vibrate and drain energy from the strings. I noticed the vibrations with finger. Tightening plate bolts stopped all that. I would think downbearing is an entirely separate issue as others here have said or implied.

Jim, thanks...I missed reading your post. Good to know....as I mentioned, probably will wait till I get the piano in the living room to hear it before I make a change.

Thanks for all your suggestions!

The primary concern of cantilevered bridges is downbearing. The bridge leans over due to having an off-centre down bearing relative to the foot of the bridge where it meets the soundboard. This means it doesn't couple properly with the soundboard. Cantilevered bridges don't sound good either, let alone possess durability. Cantilevered bridges were invented to try to get more string speaking length (lower inharmonicity) from a smaller piano.



I meant, not relevant to the debate I'm having with you. Of course it's relevant to the thread. That's why I answered.



Again: you state that I'm unqualified to make comparisons between guitars and pianos because I lack knowledge about pianos. I stated that I have knowledge of both, so that's why I can make comparisons. I then countered that you have knowledge of pianos, but haven't shown knowledge of guitars. Therefore, you are not in a position to repudiate my comparisons. In short, one must know about both in order to make any comparative statement about them - whether it's their similarities or their differences.

Feel free to ask me more questions about pianos if you like. You're welcome to quiz me by private message too, lest we annoy the other people here who are not involved.