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#2394256 - Yesterday at 01:39 PM Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound.
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Hi All. New member here. Last night, I brought home my new Yamaha CP4. Although I really like this piano, I have a question that I thought other owners may be able to answer.

When I was trying the piano at the store, I noticed a very strong overtone when playing just a C note in the bottom register of the CFIII grand. It produced a very strong overtone around F# about three octaves above. It was really no problem, so I went ahead with the purchase.

Last night, while trying the S6 sound at home, I found an even stronger overtone that is very hard to ignore. It plays a harmonic at about a minor sixth and three octaves above. So, when playing an Eb, I can hear a very strong note around the C three octaves above. I have made a video to demonstrate.



Could other owners confirm that their example does the same? I must admit, it is quite hard to ignore.

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#2394260 - Yesterday at 01:49 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
ElmerJFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 237
Possible to get capture this direct?.
Do you also hear it in headphones?
Ambient noise in the room and other vibrations... Maybe the speakers or what the speakers are mounted on? Are a little distracting.

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#2394265 - Yesterday at 02:00 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Yes. I'm positive I could capture this direct. I will do so. You can hear it the same through the headphones. That clip was recorded being played through a Bose L1C amp.

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#2394278 - Yesterday at 02:29 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
Beemer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 365
Loc: Scotland
Do you have any additional layers selected?

I agree that these are most distracting sounds. What does your dealer say about it?

Ian
_________________________
I'm all keyed up

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#2394281 - Yesterday at 02:38 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Hi Ian. No additional layers selected. I performed a factory reset on it when I got it home last night. I haven't spoken to the dealer about it yet. I'm waiting on a call back from Yamaha tech support.


Edited by Alan Davis Jr (Yesterday at 02:39 PM)

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#2394288 - Yesterday at 02:45 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 946
It is impossible to say anything qualified on the basis of this rather bad recording. Of course recording sounds in such a way - and equally when playing back samples via speakers in a small room - will produce a rather jagged frequency response from input to output/ear. Of course piano sounds are very rich in overtones - that's what they are supposed to be. Now, when some peak of of the frequency response of your room, the amp, the mike, or the recording channel as a whole hits one of the overtones, it will selectively amplify it and it may then result in what you have shown. (The very same can happen of course when you record an acoustic piano with a low quality setup.)

The only way to get a good impression of your S6 sample would be a direct digital recording, transmitted through the web in a high quality format.

Cheers - enjoy your new piano.

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#2394298 - Yesterday at 03:11 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4577
Loc: Northern NJ
Yeah, can we get a better recording of this?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
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#2394302 - Yesterday at 03:22 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2549
Loc: UK
Although we have some CP4 users here, Yamaha support hang out on their synth forums, see here . Also the musicplayer keyboard forum has quite a few CP4 users

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#2394323 - Yesterday at 04:18 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
OK. I have made another video. Recorded directly into the wav recorder on the machine. Sound still there, of course.



I will post this on the other forum. Thanks for the info.

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#2394324 - Yesterday at 04:22 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4577
Loc: Northern NJ
I'm hearing the same overtone in the S6 DPBSD MP3 though it isn't as pronounced (perhaps due to the velocity). It's in the first three note stretch group up from the bottom, MIDI notes C#2, D2, D#2. I'm hearing it a bit also in the two note stretch group below this, MIDI notes B1 and C2. Here is the relevant passage from A1 to F2, so you can hear the two note stretch groups both below and above the offenders for lead-in / lead-out comparison:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/ieqhpvllqdedndj/yamaha_cp5_s6_a1-f2_norm.mp3

So that's:
1. A1, A#1 - stretch group with no overtones
2. B1, C2 - stretch group with faint overtones
3. C#2, D2, D#2 - stretch group with faint overtones
4. E2, F2 - stretch group with no overtones
_________________________
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2394326 - Yesterday at 04:28 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 946
This is better and it shows a typical case of stretching. The overtones themselves are not a problem, they are in the piano itself. The problem is the abrupt transition between stretch groups.

But, to relax things a little: Do you have experience with acoustic pianos? All but the most meticulously prepared pianos do have some unevenness in the overtone spectrum in the bass range. Sometimes this is also in the upper ranges. I have a recording of Glenn Gould playing some Bach where one single key in the right hand range sticks out with a strong overtone... Some of this unevenness adds to the realism in playing more complex music.

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#2394329 - Yesterday at 04:32 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: dewster]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Yes. That's it. I can hear it on your sample. As you say, it's not as pronounced as on mine, but it's definitely there.

Of course, I understand that the harmonics are a good thing, but those are very strident!

I haven't had my call back from Yamaha yet. I guess I have to decide whether I can put up with it. I like the S6 sound. Trouble is, I like to choose whether I want to play an Eb7, or an Eb13. It's not giving me a lot of choice. eek

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#2394331 - Yesterday at 04:32 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
T-Dubya Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 7
This is a well known issue with the S6 sample. All Yamaha keyboards with the S6 piano exhibit that behavior.

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#2394342 - Yesterday at 04:47 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
ElmerJFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 237
OK then, that explains it - it's in the library. When they sampled the real deal, this particular instrument was showing off some partials. So the recording is a little too real, and you hear it on a few keys because they are using the same sample for each and stretching it.

What do you think of the samples in the onboard CF and CFX libraries? Nothing similar anywhere across the 88 keys?

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#2394365 - Yesterday at 05:38 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
David Farley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 535
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By Alan Davis Jr
Yes. That's it. I can hear it on your sample. As you say, it's not as pronounced as on mine, but it's definitely there.

Of course, I understand that the harmonics are a good thing, but those are very strident!

I haven't had my call back from Yamaha yet. I guess I have to decide whether I can put up with it. I like the S6 sound. Trouble is, I like to choose whether I want to play an Eb7, or an Eb13. It's not giving me a lot of choice. eek


Did you compare the Fl samples instead of the normal stretched samples? The Fl samples do not use stretch tuning. I agree the S6 sample seems more pronounced in this effect than the CFX or the CFIII.

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#2394377 - Yesterday at 06:08 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: David Farley]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Originally Posted By David Farley


Did you compare the Fl samples instead of the normal stretched samples? The Fl samples do not use stretch tuning. I agree the S6 sample seems more pronounced in this effect than the CFX or the CFIII.


I'm not sure what you mean by the FI samples. This really pronounced one is only on the S6. I noticed quite a pronounced high F# when playing the low C on the CFIII grand, but it isn't as loud as this, and it takes a couple of seconds before it comes in. I put that down to the original sample, as I really did with this one, except that it seems very strident. More than I would expect.

I'm certainly not seeing it as a fault as such. It would surprise me if it wasn't exactly the same on all of them. Possibly a characteristic of my particular amp (the amp in the piano) is making it stand out more. Either way, it's not a show-stopper. The piano is very nice all round, and a big step up from my Privia that I was using.

I'd still like to come across somebody with the CP4 to compare notes - just to put my mind at rest. :-)

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#2394379 - Yesterday at 06:15 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 607
It's funny that it's a 1/2 step above the compound 5th(when you hit the C after the Eb I really hear B).

Microphones that are close to strings in a piano can hear things quite differently than the human ear does.

To me I would not like it.

The thing about the PX5s is that all the notes seem right. It doesn't have messed up metallic bleeps on some notes, doesn't have weak 2 octaves on top like other boards, and now it also doesn't have wierd mi 6th overtones on certain bass notes.

It would be interesting to post that in the piano tuners section. They probably would have some insight.


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#2394389 - Yesterday at 06:33 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
David Farley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 535
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By Alan Davis Jr
Originally Posted By David Farley


Did you compare the Fl samples instead of the normal stretched samples? The Fl samples do not use stretch tuning. I agree the S6 sample seems more pronounced in this effect than the CFX or the CFIII.


I'm not sure what you mean by the FI samples. This really pronounced one is only on the S6. I noticed quite a pronounced high F# when playing the low C on the CFIII grand, but it isn't as loud as this, and it takes a couple of seconds before it comes in. I put that down to the original sample, as I really did with this one, except that it seems very strident. More than I would expect.

I'm certainly not seeing it as a fault as such. It would surprise me if it wasn't exactly the same on all of them. Possibly a characteristic of my particular amp (the amp in the piano) is making it stand out more. Either way, it's not a show-stopper. The piano is very nice all round, and a big step up from my Privia that I was using.

I'd still like to come across somebody with the CP4 to compare notes - just to put my mind at rest. :-)


If you spin the dial around on the voices you'll see you have some voices with the suffix "Fl" - this means "flat" meaning they haven't been stretch tuned. There's an explanation of this here in this discussion on the Yamaha forum.

https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=1589&Itemid=851

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#2394394 - Yesterday at 06:45 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
Rhodie73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 149
Loc: New York
Being a previous CP4 owner and user I can say that I rarely used the S6 sample set because I could never get it to sit in the live mix well. However I think that in this thread you pointed out the obvious stretching that Yamaha continues to do. It's really unfortunate when they do it on their high end stuff and you could buy a low end model Roland of Kawai that does not have stretching. Like we all say in playing you usually don't notice these things but here is a case where it bothers the OP enough to demonstrate it and share it within a short time of a new purchase. I suggest you go over to: www.yamahasynth.com and make a thread over there. I'm curious as to how other users and moderators will respond. I remember hearing that the 3 piano sample sets in the CP4 were "full sample sets". While that is vague terminology, I would assume that they use different samples thoughtout each piano's (that they sampled) key range. But we know they don't from forum-mates like Dewster and even the OP( and our ears). I just mention this because while I've owned the CP4 for awhile the stretching and lifeless looping will eventual distract you from doing what you originally bought the instrument for....make music. I'm just expressing my hardships with the CP4 and this thread is another reason why I traded up for an instrument that does not stretch samples to cover all 88 keys of a piano that they sampled. While the S6 may not appeal to you anymore, hopefully the CFX and CFIIIS don't bother you too much.
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Rhodes Stage 73 (MKII), Roland RD-800, Roland RD-64

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#2394403 - Yesterday at 07:02 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: David Farley]
Alan Davis Jr Online   content
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Dahlonega, GA. USA
Originally Posted By David Farley
Originally Posted By Alan Davis Jr
Originally Posted By David Farley


Did you compare the Fl samples instead of the normal stretched samples? The Fl samples do not use stretch tuning. I agree the S6 sample seems more pronounced in this effect than the CFX or the CFIII.


I'm not sure what you mean by the FI samples. This really pronounced one is only on the S6. I noticed quite a pronounced high F# when playing the low C on the CFIII grand, but it isn't as loud as this, and it takes a couple of seconds before it comes in. I put that down to the original sample, as I really did with this one, except that it seems very strident. More than I would expect.

I'm certainly not seeing it as a fault as such. It would surprise me if it wasn't exactly the same on all of them. Possibly a characteristic of my particular amp (the amp in the piano) is making it stand out more. Either way, it's not a show-stopper. The piano is very nice all round, and a big step up from my Privia that I was using.

I'd still like to come across somebody with the CP4 to compare notes - just to put my mind at rest. :-)


If you spin the dial around on the voices you'll see you have some voices with the suffix "Fl" - this means "flat" meaning they haven't been stretch tuned. There's an explanation of this here in this discussion on the Yamaha forum.

https://yamahasynth.com/index.php?option=com_easydiscuss&view=post&id=1589&Itemid=851



Ah. Gotcha. Wow. On the FL version it's even louder!

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#2394468 - Yesterday at 10:52 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
David Farley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/13
Posts: 535
Loc: Illinois
I played the S6 sample for a long time this evening, although I prefer the CFX and the CFIII. I didn't find any of these issues to be unbearable. On the whole, though, I find the S6 to sound a little dark and muddy for a lot of the stuff I practice (light jazz and classical) compared to the CFX and the CFIII. Although "dark" isn't bad - I often play the CFIII dark voice. The S6 always sounds like the voice that needs some kind of extra work to get it sounding right and I haven't taken the time to try to figure that out. The others I can just punch up and play. Perhaps I am hearing the same issue on the S6 but just in a different way. It will be interesting to see what kind of answer you get on the Yamaha forum.

Stretched tuning isn't the same thing as stretching samples. Stretch tuning is a tuning technique first applied (and still used) on acoustic pianos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning

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#2394478 - Yesterday at 11:15 PM Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: David Farley]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10092
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By David Farley
Stretched tuning isn't the same thing as stretching samples. Stretch tuning is a tuning technique first applied (and still used) on acoustic pianos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning


Good job for highlighting this David.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2394532 - 46 minutes 36 seconds ago Re: Strong Overtones on CP4 S6 Sound. [Re: Alan Davis Jr]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2283
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Those overtones sound completely normal to me, and I LIKE that kind of thing, however, it is perhaps unnatural to hear exactly the same strong overtone on neighbouring notes, due to the stretch group - that's the only problem for me - the stretching. (and I apologise if anyone has said the same thing - I haven't read every reply)

Greg.
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