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#2396986 - 03/11/15 11:32 PM Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF?
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: USA
According to Kawai website

CA97/CA67 have "88 wooden keys with Ivory/Ebony key surfaces, Grand Feel II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor."

CA95/CA65 have "88 wooden keys with Ivory Touch key surfaces / Grand Feel (GF) action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor."

Isn't that like the same thing?
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#2396997 - 03/12/15 12:09 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
ando Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 4534
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
The ebony keys feel nicer and they have a deeper colour. That's the difference.

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#2397000 - 03/12/15 12:20 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 11334
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
8 Octaves, please compare the two action reference images below:

Grand Feel (CA95/CA65, MP11)


Grand Feel II (CA97/CA67)


The GFII action offers the following improvements over GF:

- Ebony Touch black key surfaces
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
- Richer colour for black keys
- Moisture absorbency for black keys
- Revised hammer shape and weight (optimised centre of gravity, improves dynamic load)
- Counterweights on all 88 keys, graded from bass to treble
- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2397004 - 03/12/15 12:34 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: USA
Cool, thanks, ando, and for the details James!
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#2397034 - 03/12/15 02:51 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Kawai James]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2642
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By Kawai James

The GFII action offers the following improvements over GF:

- Ebony Touch black key surfaces
- More authentic key width and edge camber for black keys (based on SK-EX specification)
- Richer colour for black keys
- Moisture absorbency for black keys
- Revised hammer shape and weight (optimised centre of gravity, improves dynamic load)
- Counterweights on all 88 keys, graded from bass to treble
- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point

Interested in hearing some feedback on this - the dynamic load and let-off changes could be big news. The new shape of the black keys - wider or narrower, I wonder? Does anyone know if black RM3-II = black GF?

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#2397037 - 03/12/15 03:06 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: dire tonic]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 11334
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By dire tonic
The new shape of the black keys - wider or narrower, I wonder?


The top part of the key is a little wider, but only by a fraction of a millimetre. The new camber/shape is more significant in my opinion...but again, the change is still very subtle.

Originally Posted By dire tonic
Does anyone know if black RM3-II = black GF?


Yes, I believe so. The GFII black keys use a specially made mould.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2397066 - 03/12/15 05:08 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
dire tonic Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 2642
Loc: uk south
- thanks, James. Depending on the camber a slightly wider black key could make targeting big-leap black keys with the pinky just that tiny bit easier - a problem I've come up against with a Schumann piece I'm currently murdering.

Looking forward to hearing players' reports of GFII.

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#2397230 - 03/12/15 03:30 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4675
Loc: Northern NJ
Excellent info + nudie pix! Thanks James!

Wouldn't it be great if the other manufacturers were as forthcoming regarding the details of their key actions? </dreaming>
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#2397237 - 03/12/15 04:11 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
Tralexer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/15
Posts: 58
Hey James,

Are these a big step up over the RM3s on the VPC1? I had a VPC1 but had to return it because the keys were super sluggish compared to what I was used to (especially when releasing the key).

Are these quicker to come up, more like an acoustic piano?

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#2397262 - 03/12/15 05:29 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 894
Loc: UK
Out of interest, does Kawai use the same moulded wood-effect on the black keys of its acoustic grands?
_________________________
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#2397320 - 03/12/15 09:11 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Tralexer]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 11334
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By Octaves_Up
Are these a big step up over the RM3s on the VPC1?


Well, the GF/GFII action's key sticks and key pivot are longer than on the RM3 Grand action. This improves the weighting of the keyboard, and for a number of players was a reason to upgrade. However, these things are incredibly subjective - I'm afraid I cannot tell you if you'll prefer GF/GFII to RM3 Grand any more than I can say which two pairs of shoes will feel more comfortable on your feet.

Originally Posted By Octaves_Up
I had a VPC1 but had to return it because the keys were super sluggish compared to what I was used to (especially when releasing the key).


That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2397415 - 03/13/15 04:11 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 11334
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By lolatu
Out of interest, does Kawai use the same moulded wood-effect on the black keys of its acoustic grands?


No, I don't believe so.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2397536 - 03/13/15 11:50 AM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Kawai James]
Tralexer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/15
Posts: 58
Originally Posted By Kawai James
That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ya its got great reviews, but I've noticed other people mentioning the sluggish feel (a couple sweetwater reviews, and one professional review I believe). For my Behomia, I definitely love the action, but its not too different from other mid range uprights.

If I lift my finger off any key on the bohemia, the key returns the top far quicker than on the VPC1. My piano teacher even tried the VPC1 and, although she was extremely impressed with it (its crazy a midi controller feels that real), she said the exact same thing, that the keys were slow. Maybe it was just mine. There's a video on YouTube of a guy improving the speed on his CA95, but supposedly his was because of dirt.

Either way, I still absolutely love Kawai products, and am still hoping to pick up a CA97 when they finally get through the Long Beach harbor. Going to go try a CA95 tomorrow.

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#2397548 - 03/13/15 12:13 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Tralexer]
Alexander Borro Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 582
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By Octaves_Up
Originally Posted By Kawai James
That's interesting, and certainly not a complain I've heard before. I don't know what kind of action your Bohemia upright uses, but it must be very fast. The typical feedback we receive from those who play the VPC1 is that it's the most realistic (digital) keyboard action they've ever played.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ya its got great reviews, but I've noticed other people mentioning the sluggish feel (a couple sweetwater reviews, and one professional review I believe). For my Behomia, I definitely love the action, but its not too different from other mid range uprights.

If I lift my finger off any key on the bohemia, the key returns the top far quicker than on the VPC1. My piano teacher even tried the VPC1 and, although she was extremely impressed with it (its crazy a midi controller feels that real), she said the exact same thing, that the keys were slow. Maybe it was just mine. There's a video on YouTube of a guy improving the speed on his CA95, but supposedly his was because of dirt.

Either way, I still absolutely love Kawai products, and am still hoping to pick up a CA97 when they finally get through the Long Beach harbor. Going to go try a CA95 tomorrow.


What you need to do is turn the VPC1 180 degrees and glue it to the ceiling.

My sense of humour is off today, but sir Isaac would have been proud of this solution and discovered gravity laugh



Edited by Alexander Borro (03/13/15 12:14 PM)
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#2397573 - 03/13/15 01:33 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Alexander Borro]
Tralexer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/15
Posts: 58
Originally Posted By Alexander Borro
What you need to do is turn the VPC1 180 degrees and glue it to the ceiling.

My sense of humour is off today, but sir Isaac would have been proud of this solution and discovered gravity laugh


Hah, as if my music studio wasn't already hectic enough, sure why not I'll add a keyboard to the ceiling! :P

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#2509609 - Yesterday at 09:14 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Kawai James]
Mental Nomad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By Kawai James

- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point


This is an interesting (and valuable) tidbit I've yet to see anywhere else.

Thanks, James.

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#2509850 - Today at 01:18 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: Mental Nomad]
pv88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 3273
Originally Posted By Mental Nomad
Originally Posted By Kawai James

- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point


This is an interesting (and valuable) tidbit I've yet to see anywhere else.


There are two (2) other digitals that can trigger sound from the "let-off" (i.e., escapement point) as I currently own both of them and they are:

1) Clavinova CLP-990 (made in 2001)

2) Roland V-Piano

Question:

I find it interesting that Yamaha has not carried over this feature in the later models which include the Clavinova CLP-480 and CLP-585 of which I have owned and now have, respectively. The latest CLP-585 does not have this feature yet the older CLP-990 does -- wonder why?
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#2509892 - Today at 03:45 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: pv88]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By pv88
Question:

I find it interesting that Yamaha has not carried over this feature in the later models which include the Clavinova CLP-480 and CLP-585 of which I have owned and now have, respectively. The latest CLP-585 does not have this feature yet the older CLP-990 does -- wonder why?


Having read your question, I went over to my Yamaha C3X to find the let-off point for several keys then press hard down from there resulting in a very small sound, very quiet and muted. It produced barely any tone. It's not a good kind of tone, and there is no reason to want to play a piano this way. You want the soft sounds to be warm and relax, not short and tense. I don't see why you would choose to play with this effect except for some specific modern repertoire perhaps. The answer to your question, is that just because a piano could make certain sounds under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's desirable nor pianistic. If I slam the dampers against the strings it produces a specific sound, so why don't DP makers put that into DP's? Maybe because you're not supposed to slam the pedal / dampers to begin with, but it's possible on a real piano.

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#2509896 - Today at 03:52 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
alerique Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/15
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By 8 Octaves
[quote=pv88]If I slam the dampers against the strings it produces a specific sound, so why don't DP makers put that into DP's? Maybe because you're not supposed to slam the pedal / dampers to begin with, but it's possible on a real piano.



but they do! try slamming a pedal on Kawai CA series.... My understanding is Kawai went down the road of emulating AP as much as they can, for good or bad.

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#2509905 - Today at 04:03 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: alerique]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: USA
Yup, did try it on a CA97/67. Nothing to write home about. Try slamming the damper on a RX7....
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#2509914 - Today at 04:32 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
alerique Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/15
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By 8 Octaves
Yup, did try it on a CA97/67. Nothing to write home about. Try slamming the damper on a RX7....


I would imagine... But then again, if you love your damper noise you can crank it up twice on those Kawais... By default volume is 5, but you can make it 10.

I'm sure RX7 can still do much much more, but at on CA at 10 said noise is quite excessive already.

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#2509927 - Today at 05:06 PM Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: alerique]
8 Octaves Offline

Gold Supporter until July 22 2015


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 1121
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By alerique
I would imagine... But then again, if you love your damper noise you can crank it up twice on those Kawais... By default volume is 5, but you can make it 10.


You misunderstand. I think DP should NOT reproduce every undesirable artifact of a real piano. The beauty of the DP is that they are extremely easy to play and sound good on. They makers of DP should make the DP even easier and better by focusing on improving the tone and not worry about acoustic artifacts like the let-off or playing from the let-off. The DP already make us sound really good today compare to playing an acoustic, so progress should be have the DP make us sound even better.

If you want a really good simulation of a real piano, just buy a real piano. For the price of the CA97, you could get a pretty nice Kawai or Yamaha acoustic piano.
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#2509945 - 26 minutes 50 seconds ago Re: Could someone tell me difference of GF II vs GF? [Re: 8 Octaves]
alerique Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/02/15
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By 8 Octaves
Originally Posted By alerique
I would imagine... But then again, if you love your damper noise you can crank it up twice on those Kawais... By default volume is 5, but you can make it 10.


You misunderstand. I think DP should NOT reproduce every undesirable artifact of a real piano. The beauty of the DP is that they are extremely easy to play and sound good on. They makers of DP should make the DP even easier and better by focusing on improving the tone and not worry about acoustic artifacts like the let-off or playing from the let-off. The DP already make us sound really good today compare to playing an acoustic, so progress should be have the DP make us sound even better.

If you want a really good simulation of a real piano, just buy a real piano. For the price of the CA97, you could get a pretty nice Kawai or Yamaha acoustic piano.


I hear you, but it widely depends on use case. We bought CA67 because our living situation simply does not allow to practice for a prolonged time at a full volume of an upright, let alone grand (which we don't have a place for to begin with). Yet my wife played AP all her life and is used to it and that's what she likes. Thus for her all these unnecessary sounds and little inaccuracies just make an instrument more comfy, more familiar. I guess, it's often the case. It's literally for people who want an AP but can't use one.

On the other hand, human ear likes small inaccuracies and peculiarities. Too perfect is unnatural. Maybe it makes sense, I don't know.

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