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#2397082 - 03/12/15 07:21 AM Kawai MP11 sound issues
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Hi everyone. I just got the MP11 and I've come across several notes that sound a bit off to me.

I’ve noticed that when certain keys are pressed firmly, there quickly follows a slight but noticeable buzzing/resonance that sounds for less than a second. I hear the noise using two different sets of quality headphones and through speakers (all new). This is my first digital piano so I don’t know if this is normal. I've recorded the E and G# bellow middle C as examples, but there are several others that sound like this.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lgsfbp1htmz8nbt/Audio-000.mp3?dl=0

It happens for all the concert, pop and jazz pianos. Have played around with the Virtual Technician but nothing changes it. I have installed the latest software update.

I’d like to ask if other MP11 users experience this. Is this a natural resonance, or should I be asking for a replacement? Thanks very much, I really appreciate any comments.

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#2397105 - 03/12/15 09:02 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
panino Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 44
Loc: Germany
Did you try a factory reset?
Perhaps decay and release in the VTech menu are too long? Or problems with the triple pedal. I had such. Disconnect the pedal and test if the issue is still there...
Hope that helpz,
P
_________________________
MP11 ACD ...Not a machine gun on acid!

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#2397115 - 03/12/15 09:44 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Hi panino. Thanks for the suggestions. Removing the pedal and the factory reset didn't help. Reducing the DCF decay to -15 helped reduce the noise, but doesn't make the piano sound too good...

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#2397144 - 03/12/15 11:00 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12549
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Try reducing the damper resonance. I found that to help quite a bit and I keep mine at about 3.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2397202 - 03/12/15 02:02 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 706
Loc: UK
I can't hear anything unusual in your clip. I would guess that anything you're hearing is part of the original samples.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage / Galaxy Vintage D
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2397228 - 03/12/15 03:23 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Brometeo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Madrid (Spain)
I don't hear nothing wrong. It seems the natural resonance of piano. Some people are more sensitive to those nuances, but when I play an acoustic piano, they are more frecuent than in digitals. It is a sign of lively instrument sound smile
_________________________
Kawai CA97

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#2397291 - 03/12/15 06:57 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the idea Morodiene - but even with the damper off there is no difference.

Hi Brometeo and lolatu - It's more noticeable with headphones on than through a speaker. And I did wonder that it's just the natural resonance. This MP11 replaced a very old Ronisch upright, which was overly bright. Maybe I'm just sensitive to these frequencies and reminds me of the Ronisch, which became a bit unplayable!

I've sent an email to the store I purchased from who have passed it on to Kawai Australia. Probably the best thing to do is go back to the store and try to replicate it on their board. Not sure they have any left on the floor now so may have to wait a bit.

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#2397313 - 03/12/15 08:42 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10228
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello JonW80, welcome to the forum.

I listened to your recording a few times on my iPad last night, and have just listened again on my computer. I do not hear anything unusual with the sound of those two notes. I believe the resonance you're hearing is a component of the original recording.

I'm sorry I cannot be of greater help.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2397319 - 03/12/15 09:01 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: Kawai James]
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Hi James,

Thanks for listening. You might be right. I think I'll only know for sure by playing another MP11 and comparing it to mine.

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#2397426 - 03/13/15 04:55 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 277
Loc: Austria, EU
JonW80,
did you actually re-check your recording?
Does it sound the same, compared to what you hear on your phones?
Under circumstances, a recording off the PhonesOut jack could produce different results?
HTH

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#2397490 - 03/13/15 09:01 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12549
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Not to mention the fact that the recording is an mp3 so it's highly compressed. Can you do a wav recording?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2397682 - 03/13/15 06:58 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
JonW80
The Buzz you hear may be related to other's issues on this Forum who have the HI-XL sound engine. Which covers quite a few piano offerings. There are several notes that have been discussed. Usually plus or minus one octave from the Middle C octave. All three octaves. This possible defect can be heard the least in headphones and the most clearly from Kawai' internal amplifiers and speakers. In my case, my CA95 was exchanged for a new one. Which sounds far better than my 2+ year old one. Imho, this is not a defect within the actual sound samples, but how that sound is processed and possibly amplified. You may find searching for past Posts by AndyJoe and myself and others to be helpful. You should also play several other other MP11's if you can to compare their sound

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#2397732 - 03/13/15 10:32 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
I've put up a new wav recording, this time starting with the note before as a comparison.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hl1bpcg091kkfzl/Audio-001.wav?dl=0

Thanks McBuster for the info. My feeling is that this could just be the Kawai 'organic' voicing. But when I hear this raspy sound with just a few notes in the middle of the keyboard they really stand out - if it were an upright I'd have my tuner come round to fix it. My music store will have another MP11 on the floor in two weeks time - will wait till then...thanks all for your help.

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#2397744 - 03/13/15 11:14 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 706
Loc: UK
Jon - I've listened to your second recording with headphones a few times, and I still can't hear what it is that is worrying you. This might mean there's something wrong with my ears, because I couldn't hear anything wrong with the recordings McBuster posted either.

However I would say that if you try a sample set like the Galaxy Vintage D, which is much bigger and supposedly higher quality, the level of variation and twanging is an order of magnitude higher.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage / Galaxy Vintage D
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2398572 - 03/15/15 08:12 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 112
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
JonW80 -

Not that you need yet someone else to tell you this too, but I listened very carefully to your original audio file and it sounds perfectly "normal" to me too when played on my home studio setup.

There are a number of reasons why you might get some additional resonance on certain frequencies using whatever particular audio setup you've got, but it sounds like you've eliminated those kinds of factors by testing through different sound channels.

I don't doubt for a minute that what you're hearing is annoying to your ears, but I suspect the fact that it's not doing this to everyone when listened through their setups suggests you're hearing some kind of audio artifact that is "local" to your configuration.

Definitely try another MP11 and see what you think. Will be interested in hearing your reaction.

- OneWatt

BTW, I own an MP7 not an MP11 but the piano samples are supposed to be the same. When I played those same notes on my MP7 they sounded just like your recording. None of these sounds are unusual or off-putting to my ears, but of course musical sound/tone is a highly personal experience. FWIW.

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#2398708 - 03/16/15 04:42 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 277
Loc: Austria, EU
I wonder, what Kawai did with these EX sample recording or to the quality of sound processing components in the devices, that it is upsetting so many people. I do also have my issues with the sound, but when you try to record it, it is elusive. With firmware v1.10 it seems, that a least some software bugs affecting the sound of the Concert Grand have been fixed, what reduces negative perceptions to a minimum. Unfortunately by the preceding case history my hearing has been sensitised.

A second MP7 owner, I met, also has the same problems with G4 (right of middle C) like McBuster. He is quite skillful recording and wave-analysing the sound currently.

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#2398714 - 03/16/15 05:41 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: lophiomys]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10228
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By lophiomys
...upsetting so many people.


Please understand that Kawai sells thousands of digital pianos to customers throughout the world each year.

I accept that there are some Kawai owners who do not appreciate the characteristics of every single note on their instrument (be it a digital or an acoustic), and that a number of these individuals may choose to voice their concerns on forums such as PianoWorld. I also accept that some individuals are rather more vocal than others.

However, the overwhelming majority of Kawai customers are very happy with their instrument, and do not hear unpleasant characteristics in the piano sounds. They turn on the instrument, enjoy playing some music, then turn off the instrument...returning to their loved ones happier for the experience.

Originally Posted By lophiomys
With firmware v1.10 it seems, that a least some software bugs affecting the sound of the Concert Grand have been fixed, what reduces negative perceptions to a minimum.


That's interesting. I'm not entirely sure which changes in the v1.10 software update have affected the Concert Grand sound, however I'm obviously glad that your negative perceptions have been reduced somewhat. wink

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2398723 - 03/16/15 06:16 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: Kawai James]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 277
Loc: Austria, EU
From your lips to Marketing God's ears. wink

E.g the bug with the CutOff Filter, where Concert Grand sounds would break through the filter intermittently, was roughly fixed. But again there could be a kind of loose contact inside the hardware of my MP7.
Since one week I am waiting for a qualified response from European/German support. They seem to have gone into hiding.

Still the puzzling fact remains, that with the many other digital pianos and acoustics (approx. 20), which I have tested after having bought the MP7, I do not hear that kind of strangeness.

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#2399209 - 03/17/15 09:24 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Here's a thought ...

Kawai indeed sells quite a few digital pianos. I would believe the percentage if those with the HI-XL engine are small in number due to the higher price they command. So, a defect in this group might be quite large compared to the whole.

In trying to resolve my issues, I played all the HI-XL pianos I could find. Over ten in total. Only one was clearly not defective. Half were tolerable. Not thru headphones etc but thru speakers.

I look forward to hearing from the 'second MP7 owner'.

I also look forward to installing v2.01 on my new CA95. Am out of town til April. Will do it then.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2401963 - 03/24/15 07:20 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
JonW80 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Hi guys, just got a response back from Kawai Oz and they agree with you all that the 'metallic' sounds I'm hearing are part of the recorded piano samples. I admit that after playing it a lot over the last couple of weeks, I'm getting much more used to it. Perhaps I just had different expectations of what it would sound like. Thanks to all who listened and gave me the feedback.

I followed lolatu's advise and tried Galaxy Vintage D, and also Pianoteq. I was comforted that I heard the same sort of noise (although less pronounced) on different keys than the Kawai piano. Generally, I also like the quality of the pianos slightly more on these programs over the Kawai samples. So all in all, I'm fairly happy with it. But when I get the chance I'll try another MP11 to be sure...

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#2401998 - 03/24/15 08:36 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
JonW80

I guarantee were you to play a Shigeru or EX at a Dealer, not one, not even one, will exhibit the defects you hear. All 88 notes will be incredibly rich and uniform and easy on the ear. Will one piano be identical to another? No. But each individual one will be beautiful to listen to. All the notes exhibiting the same tone.

So ask yourself. If, Kawai claims it is due to the "recorded piano samples", what piano did they use?

Probably one alot better prepped and far more expertly voiced than any at our Dealers. Which were beautiful.

Then, if the piano could not be at fault, did they use inadequate recording equipment? Which would introduce such defects? Really? Really?

And the Engineers produced such an inadequate Sample? And went home happy?

Hardly.

IMHO, it has to be a defect somewhere in the HI-XL electronics. And we are told otherwise.

That explains why my replacement CA95 sounds alot better. Same sampled sounds. Same mechanicals. Maybe different, or better, or higher precision, electronics.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2402002 - 03/24/15 08:45 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 277
Loc: Austria, EU
FULL ACK to McBuster's arguments and experiences.

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#2402024 - 03/24/15 09:44 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Full Ack

Is that good or kinda bad?

:-)
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2402031 - 03/24/15 10:09 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: McBuster]
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 200
Loc: Brussels
Originally Posted By McBuster
JonW80

I guarantee were you to play a Shigeru or EX at a Dealer, not one, not even one, will exhibit the defects you hear. All 88 notes will be incredibly rich and uniform and easy on the ear. Will one piano be identical to another? No. But each individual one will be beautiful to listen to. All the notes exhibiting the same tone.

I think if people were putting each individual note under the same level of scrutiny on a Shigeru or EX or S&S they might be surprised at all the 'faults' they might find. You could start paying too much attention to the smoothness of the break and start obsessing about it.
Then there is the tuning issue, since you won't keep your piano perfectly in tune (no beating at all in any unison) in a normal home with bi-annual tunings.
Then your room might have some resonances that are unflattering to some frequencies, ...

Our DP are not perfect but they are far better than they used to be. And even in 10 years & Terabytes of samples, they still won't be the real thing.

Why not take them for what they are and concentrate on the music ? Or go for a modeled DP where the samples limitations won't be an issue ?

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#2402069 - 03/24/15 11:31 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: McBuster]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 277
Loc: Austria, EU
re Full ACK:
IMHO,
Good in the sense that you are right in what you say,
Bad in the sense, that we bought flawed music instruments.

I am on the third MP7 now, which is going to be returned, because I was sent a demo unit with a dented casing. Bummer again.
No. 3 sounded a tad better than no. 2 but that is only marginal. More later in another thread.

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#2402074 - 03/24/15 11:45 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Joe Garfield Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/13
Posts: 218
Loc: Ohio, USA
If I use a certain pair of ear buds I have, I hear a 'buzz' in the G above middle C (G4?) and very slightly with the keys surrounding G. The sound seems to have almost a spring-like quality to it. It is a repeatable phenomenon, but only with those particular headphones. I don't hear it with a different set of ear buds or with any of the other headphones or speakers I've tried, however, with similar ear buds I can sort of tell whatever caused the buzz is still there - in other words, it is associated with the recording but only apparent with a particular output setup.

What are you using for speakers or headphones?

Did Kawai use the same samples for MP10 and MP11? I know the sound processing is different, but that doesn't mean the source was different.


Edited by Joe Garfield (03/24/15 11:46 AM)

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#2402267 - 03/24/15 08:35 PM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: PhJ.]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By PhJ.
Why not take them for what they are and concentrate on the music?


PhJ

:-)

My old piano, I would have loved to have concentrated on the music. But, when a certain note is so bad, and is so distracting, one does not even want to practice. And when it is smack dab in the middle, G4, not one or two keys from the left end or the right, it is just not fun. And I bought this, my third Kawai, to enjoy.

Then, to have KawaiUS agree that note is a problem, the Tech that came out agreed the same, professional piano players, friends, my teacher, this was not remotely close to the so-slight variations note to note on an EX etc, and if that was all it was, I would have done somersaults every time I played it. But on speakers, this was so bad, had the CA95 cost $300, I would have called friends over and burned it in my driveway.

Then to illustrate the WaveForm before and after? Two different things.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2388726

The Link in this Post is the best I did back then to illustrate the defect. To get the best sound, use speakers and a good soundcard. Some hear it, some do not.

There are others on this Forum who have had the same reaction from Kawai with their defective pianos. G4 as well as other notes in other voices.

Kawai has an issue with the HI-XL Engine but will not admit it. It may be fixed in the CA67/97, I hope so.

Originally Posted By PhJ.
Or go for a modeled DP where the samples limitations won't be an issue ?


I have thought of that solution, even tried PTeq 5. But why should I have been forced to reduce an expensive CA95 to a MIDI Keyboard when I wanted a nice looking unit that sounded as advertised? And spend more money on a computer, monitor, keyboard and software? And have the cables and stuff setting around? And then, lost the tactile feedback of the Soundboard?

My new one they exchanged is much better ...

:-)
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2402357 - 03/25/15 06:25 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
Just Alan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 45
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
I'm afraid to say that I have the G4 phenomenon on my MP7 too. I actually noticed it as soon as I switched it on after buying it, but wondered whether it was associated with the acoustic resonance of the room that it was situated in. Of course, since then I have seen more and more indepth posts about the piano samples and now I realise that the EX Grand piano sample, even if all 88 notes were meticulously sampled, does seem to have something that stands out on G4 (and to a lesser extent the notes either side of it). To me, it seems louder and tonally different from the surrounding keys, and has more of a buzzy ring to it. If you transpose the keyboard and play any other key that corresponds to G4, you hear the same things, so it must be in the sample...and I see there is an earlier post where supposedly Kawai Australia admits that.

Having said that, I guess there's nothing that can be done to remedy it...which is a bit unfortunate, as it is hard to ignore G4 now.

The MP7 has so much going for it, but this issue is unfortunately a bit of a dampener on the enthusiasm of us MP7 owners who otherwise still have a lot of appreciation of the MP7. Wouldn't it be great if Kawai could produce a revised sample that could be programmed into the MP7/MP11 to get rid of the G4 issue. I guess it is not that simple.

None of my Roland or Korg gear exhibits an odd G4 sound in their piano banks.
_________________________
1993 Roland JV1000 76 note workstation synth with Pop and VE-GS1 expansion boards ] 1994 Roland JV1080 Multi-timbral sound module ] 1994 Roland KR4500 Intelligent Piano ] 2008 Korg MicroX sound module ] 2015 Kawai MP7 Digital Stage Piano

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#2402375 - 03/25/15 07:49 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 334
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
I have puzzled on this defect for some time. I really doubt the original piano sounded like this. I also highly doubt the recording gear or engineers were at fault.

I also found the defect will sound different for the internal speakers, headphones, USB out, or line outs.

Kawai will tell you it is simply a reflection of the "organic" differences in the 88 note sample. I would believe they would never have recorded samples thus defective.

Kawai will not fix this defect.

Eventually they replaced my piano with a new one.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2402408 - 03/25/15 09:35 AM Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: McBuster]
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 200
Loc: Brussels
Originally Posted By McBuster

But on speakers, this was so bad, had the CA95 cost $300, I would have called friends over and burned it in my driveway.

Then to illustrate the WaveForm before and after? Two different things.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2388726

Well there is definitely an issue here, but it must be with the sound system, not the samples themselves. Otherwise it would be on every CA95 (and MP7,..) whether you use headphones, usb recording, ...

As for the G4 (on the main samples set), there is a small beating, so it was not perfectly in tune during the recording. A pity, sure, but that does not make the DP 'defective'.
They could have stretched an adjacent sample but then it would only have been 87-key sampling...

The S6 on some Yamaha boards has a buzzing in 1 or 2 low notes, the roland sample set on the 700 had artifacts on some notes, ...
And don't get me started on some notes in the sample libraries that came with my NI's Komplete.

The Garritan or Ivory samples sets might be flawless, I don't have them (yet) so I can't say. But even then there is still the soundboard resonance question.

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