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Why should I spend time trying to understand what you do not want to spend time making understandable? I have told you that you should simplify your jargon, and you refuse to do so. You may believe that your time is more valuable than mine, but I do not think it is.

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I dont understand why the discontent with PTG politics on the national level. Its more democratic than the country it lives in by a country mile. I suppose that I should consider that socialists would have difficulty with it. Coming from occupied England I am not surprised however.
Why dont you reveal your real self rXd?

All the best. If in the future you find yourself considering some of the concepts I've mentioned and you have any questions, I would be honoured to try and stumble around trying to make a clearer picture for you BDB.

Using the impact tuner hammer is no different than any hammer, piano, or friction system. The string/pin system still follows the laws of physics re:forces, friction, and elastic deformation.

The impact can reduce the friction along the system if the impact is large enough, and it can equalize all the forces if the effect lasts long enough.

However, it can also be too little and too short and leave the system unequalized. But there's not way to know short of a test blow.

Also, the NSL tension ideally should be higher, not equalized.

Consider a moderate pitch raise.

Equalized tensions mean NSL tension is in the middle of the tension band.

Upon finishing the tuning, the soundboard may be settled and that could result in the pitch dropping if the NSL tension is in the middle of the band.

The preferred and more advanced place to leave NSL tension is higher in the band.

As the pitch drops, the band follows, and the relative position of the NSL tension rises until, you guessed it, the pitch is pulled up. A self correcting pitch raise. Leaving the NSL high on the band is an advanced method allows for this kind of precision.

The power of this analysis is not that it proves this happens, because it doesn't, but that it proves it could happen, so why not cheat in that direction and reduce the drift if possible?







This is not the only reason to leave NSL tension high. There are many more; concert pianists who are hard players, reducing drifting from season to season, all can be explained and techniques developed using NSL tension analysis.

Experienced and professional concert technicians know this and tune this way. Just ask them. But now there is a way to explain why they do what they do.

Letting a traditional lever hang a bit loose on the pin and wobbling it back and forth, has the same effect as an impact hammer.

NSL tension analysis explains nicely why, when and how we should try to move the pin foot. Look up my Move and Massage technique.

Impact (or impulse, which is like impact but with no clacking, just a variation in force that does not go to zero) is a great way to effect a tiny foot movement, especially in pianos with tight pins.

Thanks for the question.

Are you sure about this??? The PTG, of which I am a member, is an organization that has dis-enfranchised 50% of its membership. Meaning 50% of the membership has no say whatsoever in how the organization is run...no say whatsoever. Is this your definition of "democratic"???...Pretty amazing, actually, in this day and age.

LOL! I hear your pain.

FWIW I've had as many disasters trying to teach more complete methods to beginners. The video course's power will be that the student will choose it, I won't be requiring them to learn the method.

We should talk. Your experience could be very valuable to me.

Yes. The reason why it sounds complicated is because it is so new a concept. I post on PW to get bombasted by you guys so that I know where to simplify it more. I use this stuff and it has made me a better tuner than I deserve to be - the mark of a great technique IMHO.


Awesome. Can't wait to hear your results. My experience though FWIW, most people don't understand it well enough to get good results. Keep asking questions.


No. I don't use it in conjunction. I rarely use test blows.


No, doesn't replace, just reduces the need. Test blows are still the best way to synthesize what the piano will feel when and if the string slips.


Massaging is a very gentle bending. The hand can roll in circles gently. I akin it to no more bend that occurs naturally when we turn the pin.


LOL! I like that guy already. Ya, that was a stupid post.


Price? Sorry. I didn't get that.

Awesome post. Thanks for the candidness and details. And for doing a little research before commenting!

For a simple model just span an elastic band over a ridge holding both ends. Pull one one end to change tension on the other side.

Kees

Are you sure about this??? The PTG, of which I am a member, is an organization that has dis-enfranchised 50% of its membership. Meaning 50% of the membership has no say whatsoever in how the organization is run...no say whatsoever. Is this your definition of "democratic"???

I dont see it that way Jim. My opinion is there is a lack of willingness to participate and get involved. The guild has always appeared to me to be designed for member participation.
Regardless, 50% if you are correct is still a better track record than the country it lives in.
My definition of democratic is more of a memory these days and a hint of its existance anywhere is appealing.
In either case, when people dont get involved things will always tend to default to less than what it should be ideally.
I am curious however, why you feel you are disenfranchised? Is it to do with your associate status?

Of course I did say the guild at the time. I didn't intend any contretemps.

Does anybody remember what happened in 1977-8 at national level?

Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

Gene, all this "my guild, right or wrong" plus the light sarcasm is a bit ominous. To which of my posts were you 'really' replying?

Check out my video advertising my class in Denver. Look for the picture in picture near the end.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aVU-6CesizY

I was not a member of the PTG in 1977/78
What pray-tell did you learn from this history? What can you teach us about it? What was the lesson of historic significance?
I dont recall making use of the words "my guild, right or wrong"
Sarcasm is one of my techniques of making a point - ominous in what way?
I thought I made it clear what post I refered to - the only one where you stated that you had difficulties with PTG politics on the national level.

One of the reasons for being able to tune quietly is that sometimes a professional tuner has to share acoustical space with other quieter instruments being tuned, especially in big productions with many segments like a TV show.

One of the reasons for multiple tunings is the pianos that are constantly on the road and being loaded and unloaded off stage docks for all varieties of uses. Some halls don't own pianos and they must be rented or an artist mamagent can afford to bring in a piano if they prefer to use one of their favourite pianos that is available. Concert rental is a thriving business with many pianos to select from. All tuned and checked technically before they go out, when they come in and multiple tunings and maybe special custom technical attention at the venue. at the venue.

I only mention this because I'm learning how much I take for granted that the average tuner has no idea of. There are trucks in all cities constantly delivering and retrieving pianos for concerts and events. Are none of you involved in this? I know there have been some posters here who know a few things who have left the forum because the average tuner has no idea and argues with them out of ignorance.

For me, this part of the business is the most fun. I've a great life being part of this in different cities in different countries.

Gene,

I don't "think" 50% is disenfranchised...its a fact. 50% of the membership is disenfranchised, as per the bylaws. Disenfranchised means you have no vote and thus no participation in the governing structure. Disenfranchised means those who have assigned the governing rights to themselves have only democratic checks from within an incestuous fraternity. Disenfranchised means, a system can effectively eliminate views which are at odds with the en-fanchised members who possess the unchallenged voting access to council.

Yes I am an associate...a rebuilder who is working on his fourth rebuild in a row where an RPT, ie someone who is certified to tune pianos and perform the most basic of site repairs and upkeep, has without any claim to competence in anything other than tuning, used their RPT status as a pretense, to hack a rebuild to such a degree that the piano was unplayable. In each of these cases, overall cost of the project to the client, has increased, including the money wasted paying said hacks originally, by an order of magnitude. I am not only fixing the original issues, but fixing the issues foisted on the client by our trusted RPTs in these cases.

Really pisses me off too.

Hey Jim,, I totally understand.
We both know that competence in our craft does not happen just because you pass a test.
However, the test does demonstrate that you can aurally tune a temperament, regulate a grand and upright action, splice broken strings, rebuish flanges and keys correctly, and tune with stability that will hold up to 3 "TEST BLOWS' (ya hear that rXd? Did you take the exam? you should understand test blows then, right?) sorry for the divergence.
Nothing about rebuilding in the RPT exam.
We also both know that there are many Associate hacks as well that we need to clean up behind their sub standard treachery
We also both know that the PTG is up front about their rules in regard to membership and that they promote the RPT so you knew this going in. RPT is considered professional but the RPT certainly needs to prove professionalism on his own and gain reputation, with the Guild as his support group. The Guild cannot help someone that does not want to help themselves.
We also both know that all members do have a voice at chapter meetings where reps are from there sent to conference for voting and all members do have a voice at that level, not all have a vote however but you knew that when you joined.

Do you understand, nelson why I ask which post you were really answering when you inject your snide remarks into another post.

Yes. All those years ago I was on the examining team an everything.

I have absolute confidence in my work, as I explained, apparently beyond your grasp, it is possible to set up a pin and string so that it can't possibly go anywhere in pitch. There have been 3-4 different ways explained yet you still want to either attempt to beat them in or lack the confidence to eliminate test blows. This lack of confidence and tendency to snideness go hand in hand. you will most likely have a comeback for more. That's in line, too. It will be quite childish too.

Are you getting it yet? You are making yourself look to me as though you've learned nothing. Are you surprised that people walk away from you?

What I do understand is that you are the best tuner on the planet because you told me so.
My remarks were not snide, they were direct and posed questions as well that you will not address.
It appears that you do not walk away from me, whats up with that?
But the fact remains, you as a self proclaimed examiner should know what a test blow is and understand its value. But to you since you walked away from this country and the Guild, have obviously evolved to the point where you are far beyond the need for such vulgar techniques.
I understand alright.
In addition, I even tried to complement you based on your self proclaimed chest thumping self richousness.
In addition, I do not post here to gather a cult following. If people walk away from me because of my ideas so be it.

Hi Keelan. Here's a couple of photos of my latest contraption for hitting keys:

[img:left][/img] [img:right][/img]

I'm always looking for something new. For years I've used rubber fingertips with some felt or foam in them. For me it's not that I want to hit hard necessarily but that I have small hands and want to be able to give consistent blows to the key. In fact I am not able to hit as hard with my "Spring Fingertips". I've had some pain in my left wrist that these springs have helped with and also acupuncture has helped a lot. So, my message is, don't be afraid to try something new. Experiment. Find out what works for you.

We all, from time to time get a problem that makes the lightest touch on the keys painful, be it a paper cut or hangnail. so we can all understand needing some kind if cushioning for sensitive skin or muscles.

Scott's solution makes sense with the flexibility of still being able to use all fingers independently for tuning intervals, etc. It doesn't make sense to me to put in one string with one touch and then pick up another tool in order to put in the remaining strings of the unison. Particularly if ones' tuning style is banging dependant.

We have to use a very strong touch when tone regulating and other fine adjustments in a piano. While bunching fingers together helps, there is always one finger takes the brunt of the blow and if that's the one with the injury, we all become aware of what is a constant problem for some.

There has been a lot of talk about "jabbing" motions as test blows. There is a huge difference between the quick stabbing motions described and the comparatively "slow push" (to mangle a term from the tuners lexicon), of one of the legendary pianists creating a huge voluminous tone quality at the piano and, of course, every degree of touch in between that creates the tonal repertoire of the finest pianist.

At the risk of offending again, I have the privilege of closely observing legendary players up close as part of my job,. They almost never jab the keys yet create enormous sounds effortlessly. In my early days, I noticed that this could dislodge the occasional string from its moorings slightly. Test blows weren't cutting it for me. Finding out how to secure my moorings did.

I am painfully aware that a description of how it is done isn't sufficient. I spent this early morning with of my assistants. We did no real work but tried what has been described in these pages. Marks' description really looks as though he is trying to blind us with science, but, between us we bravely battled through. In the final analysis, I have an aversion to losing the feel of the non speaking length bordering on paranoia. I know that a whisper above can resolve quite solidly to being pushed downward onto pitch and a push below can spring back onto pitch but unless I can feel the pin being placed and the non speaking length tension as a unit, I must admit to feeling lost even if I control the spring back. My object is to leave no spring. That loss of feel of the string and pin as a unit. I may be missing something. please simplify your description if it is possible. Just the essential feel

Similarly, my own preferred way leaves the feel, in the last analysis, to the tuner. Only so much can be described. If a tuners only experience is moving the pin by any grip other than that shown by Lucas in the photo in the thread "Educating Lucas too", then they will never begin to feel what I describe. Note. I mean the third photo down in the original post. Lever positions have. Even added to that thread which are meaningless to what I'm saying.

Bill says that Lucas was shown this grip by Ron Koval. I, like Bill will describe what we do but not insist everybody does the same. ( I use a lever position closer to 12.30-1 but have had similar results from 2 o'clock, it just takes more thumb pressure and I try to achieve the best result for the least effort.

The thumb pressure was originally used to stabilise the flagpoling of the pin. The twelve o'clock is to limit any remaining flag piling to a side to side motion which is relatively harmless. This twelve o'clock position with the thumb where it has to be is more awkward but, for me, that's the price. I soon got used to it. I can see it being difficult for those with back problems. Sitting down, for me, because I am over 6' tall is essential to get the best angles for the lever in relation to the pin.

I came across this phenomenon almost by accident. I would appreciate some intelligent feedback if anyone else has discovered it for themselves or achieved it from my description.

So. Start with this position. It may not be possible for a short stature person. If you can do a lot of tuning this way, do it to get used to the feel. I do all my tuning this way. For the top octave, I usually stand but this is also to giver better pitch perspective.

Only with this position and the requisite can it be discovered that it is possible to turn the pin without any of the prior twisting, springing or marshmallow zone that everybody associates with turning a tuning pin.

I can't think of what else I might be doing but can only suggest perseverance. I'm talking of grands only and then only slightly raising the pitch of a string.peering the pitch, I have to go below and start again. I find it only necessary on fine pianos in the area above middle C and on all heavy bass strings.

Just one more thing, I have heavily used recital pianos at my conservatoir that, while inspected every day that they are used for concert, they stay in tune with no attention for months on end. I do find, however, that with no tuning attention, the tone 'dies' a little and can be revived by just a little movement of the tuning pin. I accomplish this by putting the lever on just one pin of each unison at one o'clock and slapping the handle quite hard but not enough to disturb the tuning. Some tuners give this extra slap on every pin after tuning it. I have also sometimes lightly refaced the hammers twice and cjecked the regulation during the life of one tuning. We are always at the mercy of the weather and so regular checking is necessary. I never know when the piano might just say. "OK. That's enough" and change overnight.

Concert hall pianos are constantly being moved from carefully conditioned storage rooms onto and off of the various stages of a concert hall complex and so this stability cannot be expected.

The old free trade hall in Manchester Lancashire was on a platform like the old theatre organs and was kept under the stage apron and only raised to stage level for concerts so, on effect it's castors rarely rolled.

That's a nifty attachment! I probably should just make something myself rather than buy it. I could save some money. Thanks!

Sorry everyone. I'm late to the conversation I started. :P I almost forgot about it.
There are many good points in here. I definitely agree that one should never hit too hard. Hammer technique is something that can always be improved, but is also somewhat subjective. Nevertheless, I appreciate hearing everyones different methods. I'm sure it will help me improve mine over time.
Regarding tuning and test blows. I like to think of the tuning blow not being "hard" per say. Only just fast/hard enough (in relation to the instruments pins) to bring the pitch down. Someone mentioned just using pressure. I do that too. But I do feel sometimes a tuning blow is needed. Perhaps it's something that's necessary only at specific times and circumstances.
I like to think of test blows as being lighter than tuning blows. Not trying to change pitch, just trying to make sure it's stable.