Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Why don't DPs have more historical keyboard sounds?

Many new digital pianos have dozens or even hundreds of sounds, including many that are really just useless novelties. That's fine -- there is plenty of room. But wouldn't it would be interesting and useful to have a wide array of historical keyboard sounds? This is how Mozart's piano might have sounded! Or one of Chopin's uprights. Or an early piano Bach might have played. Or Purcell's virginal. Or a square piano. And so on. How could it not be fun and interesting to hear the music as it was originally heard by the original audiences?

Yet there aren't nearly as many historical options as one might think. I'm in the market right now, and of the three vendors I've been focusing on, Roland has harpsichord and fortepiano, Kawai has harpsichord and clavichord, and Yamaha has only harpsichord.

That seems to be it. I've only checked the online manuals for the models I'm interested in, so I could have missed something, but still, this seems kind of paltry. So this is both an online gripe and a suggestion to DP manufacturers: if you are going to give us 300+ sounds, including ocarina, bird tweet, and car crash (I'm looking at you, Kawai CN35!), couldn't you at least give us maybe 10 or 15 historical keyboards?

I like the way your thinking Jeb. This is something that has never occurred to me before. I suspect that between the lack of historical pianos, piano forte`s, etc. and the lack of access to the precious these precious few is the reason. That said, it would be pretty darn cool if somehow these samples could be created / made.

There are plenty of historical instruments and excellent copies around. There are also plenty of samples of these instruments, but the big DP manufacturers haven't shown much interest in putting them into their consumer models.

The best solution for the moment is to buy a DP with an action that suits you and add samples such as these: realsamples.

Pianoteq does two nice series of modelled historic instruments: Kremsegg 1 and Kremsegg 2

Probably because producing sample sets that sound any good is hard work / expensive / memory consuming. The ocarina sound probably only consists of about 4 samples, while a piano-type instrument requires at least 100, and even then it'll be stretched and have audible layer transitions and looping.

Pianoteq has some free historical (modelled) instruments - the Kremsegg are chargeable - which give some reasonable to good sounds. Recently I have been experimenting with the 1791 Anton Walter, playing the Mozart C Minor Fantasia and comparing the sounds (not the playing!) with a cd of a copy of a 1785 Walter played by Andreas Staier of the same piece. The sounds are comparable. There is also an 1826 Conrad Graf, siutable for Schubert etc. I don't use the Pianoteq harpsichords - and "built-in" DP harpsichords are pretty grim - but would recommend the 1624 Ruckers copy (sampled), from Sonus Paradisi. Not expensive.

+1.

I only have the "KiViR" instruments (included free in the "base" Pianoteq). They're playable, and interesting.

There is, basically, no market for historical piano sounds in commercial DP's. But it's reasonably easy to "tweak" a modelled software piano (e.g. Pianoteq) to sound like something with lower string tension, thinner strings, etc.

And there are enough people interested so that Pianoteq can charge for some of those instruments.

. Charles

PS -- the Pianoteq software people might argue with "reasonably easy". I'm sure they put significant work into measuring the characteristics of the historical pianos. But they didn't have to sample every note.

Roland has had forte-pianos and such like as standard for years now (two series old). I don't know if they are good, but they do have special section of the DP devoted to them:

In addition to the selection of onboard grand-piano sounds, the HP-505 features a newly added Early Piano category containing four fortepiano variations and two harpsichord variations. Masterpieces composed by maestros such as Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin can be played with the original sounds from the period. The appreciation and understanding for the piece is heightened when using the instrument that was actually used by the composers. You can also play these early piano sounds with built-in historic temperaments which are ideal to play with other classical instruments.

I`ve used the ocarina, bird tweet but not (yet) the car crash in my songs . . I take your point about vintage pianos.

Now, Pianoteq 5 has these. Amongst them is the Broadwood. I had an old (1856) Broadwood, it didn`t have a modern action but sounded lovely and mellow. NOTHiNG like the picture Pianoteq paints . . .so even if we had these from our esteemed DP manufacturers, I rather think they'd be misleading in the extreme.

Yes. DP manufacturers can barely be trusted to put one decent piano voice in there, asking for more is probably asking for trouble.

I got the sensation that somehow, by adding the power cable, digital pianos have made the transition from a professional device, intended just for users who know or are interested in learning, to casual / mass consumer oriented device.

Same reason why there's no digital piano company trying to incorporate near vst - level quality audio in their products, and there seems to be no justification to that, other than market study.

Wow, thank you for the links -- the samples are a revelation! I have no special knowledge of historical keyboard instruments; I just think it's an obvious win to be able to play a composition on the same sort of piano the composer might have played, and I'm surprised that the vendors haven't done more in this regard. So it's interesting to see what has been done by others.

I'm a little unclear though about what you mean when you suggest that I "add samples" to a DP. Are you saying that I can buy samples (hmmm, they're expensive!) and install them into a DP, so that they can be called up as additional voice selections, as though they had come with the piano? Or are you talking about attaching a PC to the piano and using the piano as a controller? Or something else?


Memory is so cheap these days that I can't believe it's a constraint. And yes, making good samples can't be easy, but if anyone would have the expertise you would think it would be the DP manufacturers. And once you have the sample, you have it forever. Looking at the manual for the CN35, I count 14 different acoustic pianos. Given that a fairly high percentage of buyers of higher end console DPs must be interested in classical music, wouldn't you expect that "Beethoven's piano" would pack a greater marketing punch than "New Age Piano 3" or "Wide Honky Tonk"?

Anyway, this isn't going to do me any good, since I'm going to be buying soon, and I'm pretty much set on a home style console DP, rather than some elaborate keyboard/PC/speaker setup, even though that might give me more flexibility in terms of sounds. But I figure there may be someone reading this forum who will have some say in specing out the next generation of DPs, so I wanted to push the idea a little while I'm here. Can't hurt; might help.

I agree. It can be illuminating to play on the sort of instrument the composer may have used. Very few people have the money and space to buy copies of historical instruments: samples are a much cheaper alternative. Some of the modelled instruments from Pianoteq are pretty convincing, too.



Attaching a PC to the piano and using the piano as a controller. If the DP has a Line In input you can run the audio from the PC through the piano speakers. Otherwise you can play it through whatever speaker system you possess.

It would be nice if it were possible to install new samples directly into a DP and not have to connect a computer, but I don't know of any DP that allows this to be done.

As I said above, Roland console pianos, since the HP503/5/7 range have a section of period instruments, so that seems to fit your requirement. It is certainly worth trying them to see what you think.

I did note in my original post that Roland has a fortepiano sound. (In fact it additionally lists "mellow" and "brilliant" fortepianos, which I assumed were just variations of the same instrument, but maybe they're actually different). But it lacks a clavichord. (It does have a full set of GM2 midi sounds, including "clavinet", but these are synthesized, not sampled). So nobody has what I consider the basic three: harpsichord; clavichord; and fortepiano. But now that I've heard MRC's samples I'm spoiled. I want some of those! I continue to argue that a set of good historical keyboard sounds would be a significant marketing plus for any DP vendor that acquired them. I'd like to see at least three distinct pre-piano sounds and three distinct historical pianos. There is plenty of room inside the pianos; all that is lacking is the will.

I also have a problem with Roland availability. The only Rolands I've been able to find on the floor in my area are the F-130R, DP90Se, and LX-15e, at Sam Ash in Manhattan. The former is too low end, and the latter out of my price range. The extremely compact DP90Se is intriguing (although I would want the less expensive DP90e version, which a Sam Ash salesman insisted was no longer available, no matter what Roland's web site suggests). It does have the fortepiano sounds, which is a plus, and if it were a close race that could be a deciding factor. But of course this is only one consideration among many, and in the end I like the Kawai's I've been able to try better. (I do have to say I wasn't actually all that impressed with the Roland fortepiano sound, but I don't know if that's the fault of the sample or the fault of my playing).

For what it's worth, the Roland set actually includes at least two harpsichords, quite separately from the clavinet (which, in any case, is a modern instrument beloved by 1970's funk bands, mostly).

The harpsichords include a doubled (at an octave) sample. Whether you think they're any good is another matter. I suppose they are of a similar quality to other rompler GM sets: not bad, but certainly not very interesting, or of premium quality.

I think it boils down to market demand. If you hang out in a piano or keyboard store and listen to the styles of music being played, not many would be drawn to historical instruments. I think it's an intriguing idea, but it's not going to have mass appeal (not enough to get the manufacturer's attention).

I think with PianoTeq doing historical instruments the incentive for manufacturers
is not strong.

I could be wrong of course, but I think it's just possible the manufacturers have misjudged demand. Gigging pop keyboardists who aren't interested in classical music probably spend a lot more time in the stores than your typical buyer of a home console DP, so that may not be a representative sample. I remain convinced that historical sounds would carry at least some weight with a portion of the home market (and certainly more weight than sounds like "New Age Piano 3"). Like the first person who responded to my post, this market may not even realize it wants these sounds, until the manufacturers do a little communicating. (I mean, did the home market know it wanted built-in piano tutors before the manufacturers let it know that it did? )

The main issue I guess is really return on investment. Once a DP manufactures has some good samples, the marginal cost of including those samples in every DP it makes from then on is effectively zero, and that seems like an obvious win. But I have to admit I don't know the up-front costs of acquiring good samples. It doesn't seem like it ought to be prohibitive. (The DP manufacturers are not tiny companies; if they wanted to they could probably buy Pianoteq or realsamples outright.) Still, I have to admit I don't really know what I am talking about here, so I would be curious if anyone had a ballpark estimate of how much it costs to get a good sample from a historical instrument.

I don't know any dp that has a real Pianoforte-sound.

Since 31 january I have a Kawai CA95. This instrument has a virtual technician. In this modus it's possible to use old temperaments such as Pythagorean, Meantone, Werckmeister III, Kirnberger III.......very nice for an authentic sound......

Best regards,
Johan b

I've been looking forward to trying out temperaments in my next piano. I don't have golden ears, and I suspect I won't hear much difference. I still want them though.

Actually I had meant to bring temperaments up earlier. The people who appreciate temperaments are the exact same people who would appreciate historical keyboard sounds! The fact that temperaments are included in higher end DPs pretty much proves that DP manufacturers see at least some market for historical accuracy.