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It's not possible to assess the competence of a piano teacher through these exams. A great teacher might get stuck with the worst children on this planet. Or a superior student may be stuck with a teacher who has very little teaching ability. It goes both ways.

What the exam does do, though, is to show that the student is able to pass a test. It doesn't really even mean the student is "at" the said level. Out of ten students who "passed" level 5, maybe eight are already at level 7, and the last two kids are still really at level 3 in terms of proficiency--they just got lucky with an easy evaluator!

Very interesting perspective, but I'm a bit confused on a couple of points.

First off, your comment about reliance on tests seems to be the exception rather than the rule, based on the other teacher's posts, as well as our own personal experiences here in lower Delaware. Yet your post seems to indicate this a chronic problem with teachers in general.

Second, when you talk about endless exercises and preparing for a few exam pieces, you seem to imply that preparation for these exams and the normal lesson interaction (learning the notes as you put it) are mutually exclusive. Now perhaps for the more advanced grades this might be true, however for us, the time spent (so far) both during lessons and practicing afterwards for our Guild material has been a small fraction of our total time spent. This prep time in no way interferes with our "normal" process. In fact, I actually enjoy learning some of the technical exercises (e.g. A minor scales and chords are pretty cool IMHO).

However, I have to say from reading your posts (and browsing through your website) you seem to have a great approach with your teaching philosophy and your students. My wife and I are kind of lucky that way; you remind us of our teacher.

It's an art to blend direct instruction and test preparation along with the pursuit of fun repertoire. I try to be as seamless as possible, but there are times that even I would question myself and second-guess my way of teaching.

It is even more challenging if the student hates tests to begin with and is forced to take tests by narrow-minded parents.

Brian, posters here are talking past each other. For the most part, we don't do exams here in the USA. In Canada and other British related countries, they do. This is using the traditional meaning of the word exam.

Guild isn't an exam; MTNA programs are not exams (except the new theory one they states are working on); National Federation of Music Clubs programs aren't exams. Some are contests, some are snapshots in time of where the students are. Some are just happy playing events.

In re: scale runs. Many of my students are learning jazz, ethnic music, and other stuff outside of classical, and are running into scale runs all over the place.

But CM is an exam. Tens of thousands of kids in California take it every year. Many states also do their own exams.

What America lacks is a nationalized standard in private music education and music exams, and that's why RCM has been making a move to corner the American market (and not doing too well...). You see a similar resistance toward Common Core standards. Every state just wants to do its own thing.

I cannot speak to CM. I assume from your response that it must have at least a pass/fail criteria or grade. The others do not, to the best of my knowledge. Guild and NCMT certainly don't. Our Wash State doesn't have a pass/fail to my knowledge, but I will inquire from an active teacher to confirm.

Many colleges are looking for just that!

That's what the "culture of education" has become, sadly.

The last several years I have had students who worked their tails off to pass the Advanced Level of CM, only because they think it will look good on a college resume. I have a couple of talented kids in this group that, in the process, started liking piano less! One particularly bright student even asked me, "Why am I learning this?"

So, in a way, private piano teachers here in California have become the next "test prep" business.

Thanks for the clarification.

As I see it, and as ABRSM examiners describe their role, exams should reflect the whole package of what a good pianist should be, equipped with all the skills that are commensurate with their standard at each stage. They aren't contests, and aren't for people who just want to be able to perform a few memorised pieces at parties.

The Guild and the other assessments as described (in which students can pick and choose what they want to do) don't seem to me to fulfil the qualities of a standardized exam in any way.

The entire TOPIC of this thread is exams. It's in the title: "Are you disappointed when a student doesn't take piano exams" You have used the word yourself. You wrote why the exams are beneficial, how the exams help protect parents against bad teachers and help them see whether their child is learning, etc. So in everything you wrote about, were you writing about exams, or were you writing about something else?

In regards to Canada and the RCM. I think the distinction you're making, John, is the idea of "passing" or "failing" and maybe getting grades. Yes, that exists, but I don't believe that is the essence of the RCM material or how it is used. First, you have a set of skills, repertoire etc. listed for each grade level and the exams are meant to reflect these. It is intended that all students who have reached a given grade know how to play in certain keys, have repertoire in several periods of music, have some ear training, and a given level of theory at grade x. Some teachers use the RCM as an outline or checklist, just to make sure they have covered their bases, without going near the exams.

I did exams and so did my child. You get an anecdotal report that is a page long, in close handwriting. There are observations about musicianship, control, technical suggestions, all along the lines of what would be expected for that grade. Getting a pass or fail or getting a grade is not the main point of this. This actually goes toward the argument of seeing "how my child is doing" through a second set of eyes.

I don't consider Guild an exam, so I really misspoke. It's an evaluation or snapshot in time of where the student is. If properly used, it can be extremely beneficial to student and for the parent. Exams, as I understand them, have certain criteria which is either met or not met.

RCM and its derivatives, have a set repertoire, set standards for that repertoire, and a student either meets it or doesn't. From what AZN says, as I understand, CM is also an exam. You cannot take the next level until you pass the previous level. With Guild, I can jump levels if that's where the student is at. For example, if a student plays at an Elementary E this year, and by next year, has advanced to Intermediate B (that's 3 levels up), then he or she can audition at that level. Students can choose to play anything from 1 to 20 pieces, of their own choosing. I don't believe that's possible with either RCM or CM. That's why Guild specifically tells teachers not to do comparisons among students. It isn't fair, nor realistic.

I suppose that using the loosest possible definition of exam, you could argue that both Guild Auditions and RCM exams are exams, but that would be extremely unfair/unjust IMO. And yes, I still believe exams can and would be beneficial, if properly used. From the comments, I sense that there are many teachers and families which do otherwise.

Fine and happy for their firm decision. I will ask mom to sign a contract saying that she is no taking test tho in case she comes back later to accuse me of not offering the test.

OP- I personally don't understand why any family would spend so much money/time on piano lessons and not want their child to participate in exams. My son has been taking piano lessons for almost two years and we spend $5K per year on lessons which is a lot of money for us for something that I consider to be an extra-circular activity. From a time commitment, he's spending more than an hour every day practicing- many days much more than that. His teacher has excellent credentials and I think she is fabulous.

However I think just like anything else, independent evaluations are good for both the teachers and students. I think it's human nature to slack off. I also think that it is wrong to think that a student isn't learning while preparing for the Guild. While my child is definitely moving slower through the books during the "Guild" preparation process, his teacher is focusing on helping him perfect every aspect of his pieces including (dynamics, phrasing, timing, etc). The process of perfecting pieces is tough for an 8 year old but it really is helping him with his self-confidence in his piano skills and I believe the process of "perfecting" is a skill itself. The exam gives his teacher a great excuse to help him perfect his pieces. It changes the dialogue. It's not that she's nit picky- it's that she wants him to do well on the exams.

For those that argue that the exams stifle learning, I would much prefer that my son play simpler pieces well than advanced pieces only acceptably. Also, if you are a non-musical parent (like me)- please tell me a better way to gauge progress?

If the parent's purpose is for the child to get good grades in exams, then it would be silly to not want the child to participate in exams. But some students with their parents' support want to learn to play the instrument well, and to understand music, which is the other half of the equation. They are not aiming for exams, so it is not really surprising if they are not interested in them.

Isn't the purpose of the exams, to demonstrate musical proficiency?

To me this argument is like a school with poor standardized test scores, preaching we don't teach to the test. I want my kids to know what's on the test.

PianoMom is spending perhaps $150 per lesson for her little Sylvester to commune with scales and chords. Wow. I am not surprised that she endorses the concept of outside assessment.

But exams/evaluations should be a pedagogical decision by the teacher, not a parent's longing for quality control.

Her deeper question is interesting: how does a parent discern quality piano teaching?

Her actual question was the question I always ask myself, how do you measure progress? I myself can feel the progress, based on what I can play now compared to 6 months ago.

Having said that, I think it is human nature to try to quantify that progress in some way.

P.S. Not sure why you felt obligated to respond to her with sarcasm...

Peter your response made me laugh You may disagree with the merits of hiring a piano teacher who graduated from a top conservatory for an 8 year old child but that's for a different thread. I don't pay anywhere near $150 a lesson but we also live in an area with a high cost of living. My son also takes lessons year around.

If my son's teacher moved or whatever and I had to find a new teacher for him, I definitely would only choose one that had students who participated in "Guild" or something similar. It would be a huge flag to me if the teacher was completely uninterested in these type of events. As a parent who invests a lot in piano lessons, I do believe that I have the right to expect independent quality control.

However, if my son were just taking piano in addition to 10 other EC activities and we were paying much less then maybe I wouldn't care so much.

Keystring, you've made it very clear that you believe "learning to play the instrument well" and "preparing for exams" are mutually exclusive activities. Or; at the very least, that you believe preparing for an exam slows the learning process down significantly. That opinion is based on your own experience, of having had to "stop learning" while you were preparing for a violin exam. I'm not at all saying your experience is somehow "wrong".

However, that experience came about because you define "learning to play the instrument" in a very particular way. To you, performing well in a high-stakes setting (like in front of an examiner) perhaps isn't even in the top ten of "key piano skills". But music, by its very nature, is a performance art. Those who want to do anything significant with it (such as play in an ensemble or a band, become an accompanist, or really, any kind of professional future that involves playing the piano) will eventually have to learn how to polish their pieces to perfection, and then perform them "first time right" in front of a discerning audience. If nothing else, exams train them in doing *that*.

As for outside quality control: the question PianoMom asks is, to my mind, a very valid one. How, as a non-musical parent, *does* one judge the quality of any given person's teaching? Having an outside observer judge the results of that teaching by pre-defined standards seems to me to be as good a way of doing that as we've collectively been able to come up with, so far.