Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Are you disappointed when a student doesn't take piano exams

We might be talking about different exams here, but I did all the ABRSM exams (not skipping any grade) through my teens, and the set pieces number just three - all from different periods, and different styles, and 'testing' different aspects of piano technique and musicianship. And no-one plays any of them from memory. (I never played any piece from memory until my diploma exam).

I fail to understand how that is less useful (or more useless ) to a child's development as an all-round pianist than a single piece (which might be some pop arrangement) honed to performance standard and memorized, for a single recital. Can he play staccato? Even runs? Polyphonic music? Good voicing of chords?

Ear training in and of itself may not actually improve piano playing per se, but what about the 'whole package'? All-round musicianship - of which aural skills are important components (if you can't tell whether a straightforward piece is in duple, triple or quadruple time, or whether an interval is a 4th or a 5th, are you really a musician?) -, not just the ability to play select favorite songs.

There are several people in the ABF who bemoan the fact that they were never taught ear-training by their teachers; others purposely ask to do exams to ensure that they get taught all these essential things.

As for performance anxiety being 'managed by doing recitals', well, I think you should read some of the posts in ABF......(btw, I'm talking real performance anxiety, not just a mild queasy sensation in the stomach prior to walking on stage).

Do you have the link to that discussion? I'd be interested in hearing teachers' views on exams. I did a search on the topic and was not very successful.

My son took piano lessons. I took piano lessons. Neither of those teachers even mentioned Guild or CM. My young friend in his 3rd year of piano lessons doesn't take exams. The other parents I've talked to about their kids and piano lessons have never mentioned exams. Oh, I live in Los Angeles (west side) an urban city in, you guessed it, California. But thanks for letting us know we're all failures.

You make a lot of judgmental blanket statements about others. It gets old.

Kurt

Kurt wrote:"But thanks for letting us know we're all failures."

Kurt, you have misread AZN's post in which she is saying that in the minds of parents requesting exams, or perhaps even parents in general, the lack of a piano exam is a failure in the "normal" way of doing things. It doesn't mean you're a failure.

There's nothing wrong with blanket statements. You probably make them yourself all the time. They help people speak without always requiring a detailed example.

For instance, "if a person eats well and exercises, he will likely not get too fat." It's not always true, but it's true enough to let this type of blanket statement stand so that we can get on with exercising and eating well.

You read my post wrong. Read the whole thing again. I guess sarcasm doesn't translate well if you don't contextualize.

And, BTW, the west side of LA is loaded with testing of piano. It's a massive testing culture there. It got so big, the branch had to split up in order to accommodate everybody.

But that doesn't make YOU a failed parent, though some other parents might feel that way.

AZN,

I understand now. The context of your characterization didn't make them jump from the previous paragraphs.

I didn't try to claim that there is no exam based teaching being done; I was controverting the notion that guild style testing was the norm and (nearly) universal.

Candywoman, don't be disingenuous. I'm not talking about generalities or folksie homilies. I'm talking about blanket statements that use perjoratives like "stupid" and "failures".

Kurt

Let me play Devil's Advocate here. I started with my grandmother, and I do no think I would have ever fallen in love with the piano if it were not for her. But she felt that she did not know enough and so set out to find someone who was the very best.

So I went to one of two teachers in my area who had the best reputation. The teacher I "inherited" studied with Harold Bauer and was very important in the community for being a part of what was considered rather posh. She had connections.

She very much believed in the Piano Guild, and in my last exam I got 99%. 100% was not given. Sounds great, right?

I could now make a list of things that I was never taught that could go on for pages. NONE of these things show up on tests.

First, there is not one finger number written in any of my music. When I had a difficult passage to learn, if I came back and something did not work, she would say, "Did you study the fingering?"

This was at critical points in the Barber Nocturne, and I was lost. I was actually very good at solving my own problems, but sometimes we need expert help. There was none.

When I could not do something, I got vague "advice". And when I got to FSU in 1966, I almost was turned down as a piano major. The faculty knew that I had big gaps, but they had no idea where these gaps came from.

So while we are worrying about all this possible testing, remember that I was getting good sheets on performance in high school, that I was an excellent sight-reader, and that theory is a natural gift for me. I was already making money accompanying at age 15. The things I was not getting in lessons are things that don't appear in tests.

My high school teacher did "produce" some students who played well, so it could be that at the time I started with her she was losing it, and faking to cover it up. I know that she could not drive at night.

My point: I do not have any of my students tested, but I'd wager that if one of my better students moved to your area and you got that student, you would be pleased.

And from talking to you, for years, I'm quite confident that if one of your students came to my area, I would be both surprised and pleased to get someone whom I would not need to start from scratch.

It's pretty obvious to me that you and I have very opposite views on many things, but the bottom line is that there are very few fine teachers in this world. Some (like you) use testing, to good advantages. Others (like me) have been burned so many times by people who claim to know what they are doing - and therefore what they are testing - will stay away from tests and testers like ebola.

This does not mean that tests or testers are, of themselves, good or bad. It DOES mean that we had better know if the music test a student is taking was written by the kind of people who wrote Singapore Math, or the kind of people who wrote the curricula for Common Core.

It's not about whether or not testing or tests are good - it is about TRUSTING the people who make tests. And my trust level is very low these days.

Gary, no argument from me. I'm really discussing your so-called "average" student whose parents really are in the dark and this so-called Guild testing can be a valuable tool for them. And FWIW, I don't worry about it at all! If parents are uncomfortable with Guild Auditions, they can opt out or find another teacher. We have several really fine ones here whose background and approach closely mirror yours.

Right now my wife and I are preparing for the Guild Auditions down here in lower Delaware in late May.

I really have no idea how we will feel both during the preparatory phase, or after the actual audition.

However, we both feel there is really no downside to this process. We will either do it one time, say "well that was interesting" and never do it again, or we will really enjoy the process and will look forward to next year.

Hey, as older adults we are not prepping for anything, no future music degrees, etc. However, as someone who suffers from a fair amount of performance anxiety, I'm hoping the experience one-on-one with the judge might help me in this area in the long run. Maybe not.

But as far as "graduating" to different levels, I've learned there are no absolute scale on these types of things.

I believe our teacher has placed us in the Elementary B level for the auditions, yet the pieces I'm currently learning are considered Elementary E/F by several reputable sources. Who knows?

So, of all of the reasons we are doing this, either graduating to a different level or knowing where we "are" is not one of the reasons.

I suppose for younger students, the motivations may be very different?

I'm adding an addendum to my response to Gary.

In the USA, there are 3 nation-wide programs of assessing students progress/skills: MTNA, which is very frilly because each state can and do modify it to meet its need; the RCM counterpart ala Canada's program; and Guild. California has a stand alone or stand apart system (depending on your viewpoint).

Some of these programs have written exams. Guild does not.

I am only intimately acquainted with the Guild system, so can really only comment in depth on it, but I have many colleagues who participated in our Washington State version of the MTNA program, so I can share some general insights.

The MTNA program, as I understand it, was begun like most of their programs, as an effort to enhance the skill of teachers and generally uplift the quality of teaching throughout the country. Students play a program of four pieces (some states require memorization, others do not). The top ranked students locally go on to District and then State, more as a competition than evaluation.

Guild was started, in Texas of all places, by German teachers, in an effort to standardize some way to assess how students were progressing.

Guild divided the pre-college literature which is within the grasp of most serious students, into 16 levels of advancement. The very simplest, of course, was students playing 8 measures, one hand at a time, five finger position. The the most advanced level was what most music schools would expect from prospective students entering a music program. An example might be Liszt's etude, Un sospiro.

In the Guild evaluation, called an Audition, the student plays a program ranging from 3 memorized pieces to 20. The vast majority of students either play a 7 piece program or a 10 piece program. An aside, musical skills, such as scales, arpeggios, chord cadances, transposition, sight reading, ear skills (identifying major, minor, augmented, diminished chords, for example) can be substituted for pieces, so if a student knows his or her 24 major/minor scales, the judge can hear that in lieu of a piece of music. Of course, they would be mind-numbed if they had to listed to all, so they generally select 4 or 5 for the student to play.

The judge has a "report card" for the student, on which 40+ aspects of musical playing are identified and the judge, who is quite human, listens to see if any of the playing skills don't measure up to the level the student is playing at, or if they exceed the level the student is playing at. Only those which fail to meet standard or which exceed standard, are marked, and the judge identifies the measures where the student achieved this superiority.

Typically, well-prepared students will achieve scores in the 20s, that is 20 or so above standard checks, off-set by any below standard checks. The exceptional students will receive scores in the 30s. Gary, if he had 99%, would have received 39 pluses of 40 possible (or what ever the exact number is). I never give students percentage scores, but instead focus on areas which did and did not receive above standard checks, letting the student evaluate their own performance.

The Guild also has some special programs, all Bach programs, all sonatina/sonata programs, which very tightly prescribed parameters. For the record, two of my students have received so-called perfect scores on the Bach performances and were recognized nationally with scholarships, etc. Only two Bach awards are given each year, one at the Intermediate level, and the other at the Preparatory (high school) level. These are the Raissa Tselentis Bach Awards. I happen to really enjoy teaching students Bach, and I suspect my enthusiasm is contagious.

Now, after that long-winded synopsis, what it all really boils down to is the teacher and how they work with their students to either profit from the program, or not. If the teacher views it as a "check mark activity" then, as Gary well points out, the student is better off not participating. And IMHO, the teacher ought to find other work, and not be ruining our students. On the other hand, if the teacher can use it to help the student assess/evaluate/grow/goal set, etc., then there can be a wonderful growth experience for the student.

At this point in my teaching career, I really don't need the hassle, extra work, etc., required to prepare students, but I find the results really satisfying, and "most" of my students do as well.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of this process John.

Two questions:

First, I assume the 16 levels are divided into 6 Elementary, 6 Intermediate, and 4 Preparatory?

Second, there is a special category for students who have trouble memorizing their pieces, something like a "junior" level? The reason I ask the second question is that my wife has difficulties memorizing her pieces, and rather than not participating at all, she would be allowed to bring her music with her to read during the audition.

Thanks,
Brian

Brian, there is a category for "social" music, which sounds like it might be perfect for your wife. I don't have my manual handy, so I'm trying to recall from a very imperfect memory. She should ask her teacher during the next lesson (time is running out on this year's cycle) about the social music category. Preferably ask her to read it directly from the syllabus, so there's no confusion, no doubt. When you wife sits at the practice piano, how many times does she repeat a piece she's learn well during her daily practice? When she is playing one of those pieces, are her eyes still glued to the music (an indicator that her learning is at the basic, most superficial level). When you know a piece really well, but are still dependent upon music for transitions, guide posts, etc., you are free to watch your hands or stare into space, and think about the sound you're producing. Just out of curiosity, what is some of her current repertoire?

Oh, I might have done this as a student late in high school in Seattle.
It was definitely not on a graded system.
My teacher's students all went together and sat in a room in the upstairs of the Sherman Clay piano store, and played our pieces for each other and for a table of 3 judges. The judges gave verbal evaluations of each student right after playing, and written comments were given later. I remember one of my judges spent the entire time talking about Alexander technique And I remember finding it very useful to hear the other students' evaluations, particularly because a couple of my fellow students were really quite brilliant, and all I could really tell at that time was that they were awesome advanced students. I appreciated hearing judges pick out the particular things that were good about their playing; it helped me begin to distinguish between good pianists besides just that they were awesome and playing advanced music.

Sherman-Clay was wonderful, wasn't it?

I think Adjudications have evolved a lot since you were there. Anyway, it's supposedly non-competative, but since top scoring students are invited District and State and eventually national, you can bet there are strong elements of competition. Your parents may not have been aware of it, which was great for you, but there are plenty who are, and their children/teachers are striving to make the cut.

Currently my wife is learning from the same books as I am, except she is at Level 2. The interesting thing is, she plays these pieces very well, certainly as well as I did just a few months back. For some reason, she has a harder time memorizing pieces than I do. On the bright side, she is a better sight-reader than I currently am. Go figure.

We just went over her five Guild pieces. Three of them seem to be memorized, two only partially. The good news is she has another 8 weeks to work on them, so I think she should be fine.

Ironically, she has much less performance anxiety then I. She only worries about remembering what to play, I on the other hand worry about playing my pieces (which I could play in my sleep) properly in front of someone else.

We make a good pair.

Brian, here's a suggestion for her - make sure she knows the key of each piece and can play the scale smoothly. Probably two octaves, depending on her level. Most of those earlier pieces are in C, F, & G, a few in g minor. There are two general types of judges I run into - those who understand the learning mission of Guild Auditions, and those who are still in their conservatory mind set. With the latter, just take a deep breath and be done with it. The former are a joy to work with. Enjoy the process.

When she enters the room, as I tell my students, smile, walk up to the judge, introduce yourself, keep smiling, hand your music to the judge if the teacher hasn't already done so, smile some more, and then go sit at the piano. Take time to adjust the bench. Run through a simple scale and chord sequence to get the feel of the piano. Don't wait for the judge to ask you if you want to warm up. Readjust the bench if necessary and try another scale. They're busy sorting music to your evaluation form and most will be happy you're confident enough to get going. Then smile again, look at the judge, and state that "I would like to begin with XYZ piece." This is important. All students have choice of first and last pieces played. The judge cannot dictate it. If the judge says to start with something else, go ahead and do it, but make sure your teacher reports that immediately to the center coordinator. This person will then tell the judge that's a no-no and report it to Guild HQ on their report card of the judge.

I train my students to tell the judge what piece they are playing, the key signature, and then just starting in. The judge can stop you if they want, but most are delighted that the student is taking the lead.

I put sticky tabs in the students book, numbering the pieces, so #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, etc. And I stack the music accordingly. It makes it uber easy for the judge this way. Most music now has measure numbers, but if you're working from an edition without measure numbers, manually write them in (just the measure number for the first measure of each line is required).

When the student is finished, the judge will dismiss the student. They may or may not hand the report card to the student. Most judges like to take an extra couple of minutes to write notes for the student, so be patient. Your teacher has his/her own routine, but I ask the judge to finish the report card, so I can review it immediately with the student before they leave the audition center.

From what you say, you're wife is probably going to come out smiling and euphoric. Best of success to her.

Thanks very much John for your insight. It is really appreciated!

I think you've created a snapshot which doesn't accurately portray piano teachers in the USA. Almost every teacher in my local MTAC branch participates in exams, and many students take exams every year. It's a big thing.

I'm sure you've already gathered that from the above posts.

To the OPs original question: I'm ok if a student doesn't want to take exams. I encourage students I think would benefit from it, but I don't require exams.

John, I got tied up with things so my response is a bit late. Originally I was telling you what my goals as a parent would have been, since you asked maybe rhetorically about goals. I had thought that if a parent says "My goal is for my child to get the skills for playing piano well." that a teacher who finds exams to be important, would then tell the parent that exams help the child gain those skills. Or they help the teacher give those skills, because the exams are part of his tools. Your answer didn't address that so I was a bit lost with it. Miscommunication?

If I understand your answer, you were saying that exams are important so that the parent knows how the child is doing. Back when I first signed up my child for lessons, I expected the teacher to know how my child is doing and be able to tell me. In my own teacher training, I learned that the most accurate assessment comes from frequent interaction with student - what better than one-on-one private lessons. We were taught that the least accurate were tests, esp. general ones done by strangers. I would have trusted you, his teacher, to tell me how my child was doing. If otoh you told me that it helped you do your job by having outside exams, I would have respected that.

Your second point, then, is the need to assess the teacher because he might be terrible. So if I decide to trust you, and believe you can tell me how well my child is doing, and that you are a good teacher for whatever reason I have - if the purpose of exams is to make sure the teacher is competent, and I already believe you are competent, it doesn't make sense that this would be a problem. It does make sense if you believe that exams help in the learning process of piano.

I have seen this too. But problematic teaching can also happen within the exam circuit. There is "teaching toward exams" - only teaching those things that are looked for in the exams; teaching very few pieces so the student will shine. I don't want to know if my child is good at passing exams and if his teacher can help him pass exams. I want to know that my child can play music on the piano. You've made an important point, that it's not that easy to spot who is a good teacher. But I don't know if exams are a sure fire way of doing so.

And then, if a parent wants the child to learn, the child wants to learn, the child is diligent, the parent is supportive, is it then really a bad thing if the only thing they don't want to do is exams?

I agree with you 100%. First of all why is your daughter taking lessons? You have the ONLY answer I will acept when I interview a parent. And I interview ALL parents before taking on their child as one of my students. If they don't mention "enjoy music" or "love of music". then they are told to find another teacher.

Taking a piano exam in NO way is anything impressive on a college application ... unless it is one of the final two or three grades ... nothing under at Grade 8 is worth the time. The early grades are a total waste ... they are in no way "credentials". The greatest loss is the time spent on learning a couple of easy pieces and playing them over and over again to be sure there are no mistakes at that exam. Time which would be SO much better spent learning the NOTES.

Technical work is stressed when the child will never need to play four actaves of scales or arpeggios running the length of the keyboard. Learn the NOTES. There is no way around this. If a child learns those notes and advances quickly he will not lose interest in the lessons. If he's doomed to play endless exercises, tolerate the insistent and mind numbing beat of a metronome and experience only a couple of pieces a year in preperation for that exam, you can be sure music will never be a large part of his life.

I deplore this reliance on exams. The only use they can be for a teacher is to give her a general idea of what should be covered at various stages of development. But there is still far too much emphasis on technical skills which will never be used unless the student reaches an advanced level. At the risk of being bitterly criticized, I believe those exams are an excuse for teacher laziness. If you are a superb teacher you will tailor each lesson to each child. I do. And I love teaching with every fiber of my being. I do not do it to earn extra money nor as a "hobby".

I know when I've captured the interest of a student, then he will be much more tolerant of more technical work. I can sneak in all sorts of exercises because then he WANTS to play well. I often "bribe" my students with a special piece ... if they finish a certain number of scales or pieces, then they can have that special piece. My first teacher was so good at this ...she lured me into making music my life.

In thirty years of teaching I have produced a few professionals ... but hundreds of children who I know will love music all their lives, whether they play or not ... and will remember musc lessons as inspiring treats .... not burdensome chores tacked onto their school assignments.

Music is one of life's great joys. To reduce it to "discipline" and " credits for college application" is a terrible terrible sin. If you don't want to approach learning to play a musical instrument as a privilege and a joy, then you've missed out one of the most glorious experiences a human soul can have.