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Hi, Mark.
I differentiate between very springy pins, springy pins, not do springy pins, all of which are all assumed to be tight. Then there's tight but not springy pins, loose but tuneable pins and lots more degrees in between. I like your further distinction of stickiness and the amount of rubbing sensation.
In NSL tension analysis, the tuner doesn't care about how springy the pins are or how tight the pinblock is. If the string doesn't stay, you just do what ever will add or subtract to the NSL tension that was left. But recognizing the degree of springiness, pin tightness, NSL length, etc, can help the tuner guess at a technique that would have a better chance of success.
I also appreciate the differences in describing the leaning of the pin. Some words are stronger than others to different people with different linguistic backgrounds and connotations associated with words. I can see where this would lead to bringing in a whole new set of words to avoid the additional meanings given by each persons' individual history. That has even more pitfalls, it seems.
Really, the leaning must be the least amount possible. Any beginner can assume they are using too much.
The only real problem I have with what you describe, and I may be still misunderstanding, is the leaning of the pin towards the string as a final move before leaving the pin and going on to the next. This is a sort of schroedingers' cat situation bacause if the pin is leaned towards the string and the pitch doesn't change, I have no way of knowing how much tension I have left in the non speaking length. Even if the pitch does change, I still have no way of knowing other than guessing unless I can feel it spring back. I know from the start that the pin is leaning as far forward as it needs because the first thing I do is put it there. Not the last.
This is why the lean must be the smallest amount possible. If there is no change, that means NSL tension is not near the bottom or the pitch would have dropped. If it does drop, that means the NSL tension was too low for stability. The speaking length tension will drop (pitch) and the range of stable NSL tensions will also drop. Unbending will bring the NSL tension back up to about where it was, but higher in the tension range. In both these cases, NSL tension is confirmed or left off the bottom, and hence, stable.
My problem with three o'clock to raise the pitch is the miaw made by the overpull. This, apart from moving the string more than I need to, is not an elegant tuning sound.
No over pull. Bring to pitch and stop. When at pitch, the removal of lever force will unbend toward string and untwist toward string, both lowering NSL tension. And time will settle the pin toward the string too. But, with a long NSL and moderately firm pins (not tight), you got a chance that NSL tension will not drop too much.
I can tell when a piano has been tuned at three o'clock by the large amount of wire I can wind onto the pin by using a 12-1 position.
Meaning, before the pitch changes? If so, that means low NSL tension. Yes, possible result with 3:00. Not ideal, but fast. If doesn't feel right, just use 12:00 pull up to pitch. No unbending means less NSL tension drop, and much less if any settling over time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the more wire there is on the pin, the less wire there is available to drift into the speaking length over a long time or a short time.
No. The "over time" component is strictly a function of the pin settling back to its bent and twisted state. It is a very tiny amount, but does relax the NSL a tiny bit. And if the NSL has been left low in the range, can be enough to cause it to slip. I really should make some videos. This stuff is so easy to see when I take measurements before and after hard blows. Thanks again for taking the time to ask questions. I would like to make some videos to demonstrate. Next couple of days. Look for a new thread. OK. Hold all those thoughts right there and add one component. The degree of thumb pressure on the shaft of the lever that is used to counteract the leaning of the pin caused by the rotation of the lever. this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns let me repeat that. ; this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns. This may indeed be the dark side but it enables me to be a gentleman of leisure as I keep in tune some fifty grands that are subject to string breaking levels of playing 14-7. They stay in tune with minimum attention. Even when a string breaks, the other strings of that unison don't move. it is also the reason I am entrusted with tuning for high profile concerts where a lot is riding on the tuning. My senior colleagues and I find that it takes a couple of years to integrate a new tuner into our system where we follow each others tunings without disturbing the work of the rest of us. The most important aspect of this is, of course, the position the pins are left in and our need to wind on more wire when following a new person, whether fresh out if school or with years of experience. Too many years of getting away with sloppy tunings on domestic pianos is, of course, no place to begin even considering taking someone onto the team. Sorry if that sounds elitist but there it is. It is a joy to follow a tuner as they eventually "get it". Some never quite do and it can't be taught. It can only be learned from following the work of exceptional tuners who have been doing this class of work for forty years or more. I remember it all dawning on me after many years of what I thought was "experience". Among the many things that Franz Mohr taught me all those years ago was;" always turn the pin". It was still a while before I really got that even though I immediately started to always turn the pin. Following some others, I find myself winding more wire on even if the string was solidly sharp!!! I can't think of any mechanical advantage that would remove this twisting feel before the pin turns but I can assure everybody that it does. All I know is that I am using more thumb pressure than would be thought necessary just to keep the pin from leaning. Or, at least that's the best I can describe how it feels. it isn't necessary on every pin. Fortunately. Hit its good to have the skill. Don't try it on very springy pins to start with, but with practice, it works on all but the springiest. . It is an aquired skill for which I can find no basis in theory. I hope you can, Mark. That would be a real breakthrough. Please try it and persevere with it. If you can find a mechanical theory why this should be possible, that would be a big advance. The thumb pressure is one of the oldest tricks in the book but I so seldom see it in videos of tuning. I know that I find it more difficult with tight pins in a softer pin block but with good pianos it is a game changer for me. It removes a large percentage of unnecessary movement but does not remove the need for all the other aspects of pin feel. To the best of my knowledge, some manufacturers tuners do the exact opposite of what you are recommending and many tuners, mostly German trained will give the lever handle a hearty slap in a clockwise direction from aporox 1.30-2oclock. This will, of course flex the lever away from the string and at the same time rotating the pin. Both will increase the non speaking length tension without being hearty enough to change the speaking length pitch. They will do this on every pin in the piano. I have observed tuners who do this go be very solid. Are they wrong?? Please try to explain what this thumb pressure is. What part if the hammer? Which direction? I will try to analize from an engineering pov. A video with some ETD measurements would be great.
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Joined: Jan 2010
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For ETD users, a very fine setting on the ETD can show drift on the pitch if you put rotational or leaning pressure on the tuning pin. Set the pin so that a little pressure in every direction still leaves the pitch stabile and your pretty well good to go. Strike the key hard several times early on in coming in from sharp to flat and string tensions will equalize...residual small uneveness will stay put for the duration until the next tuning if properly done...the static friction on bearing points far exceeds the small amount of tension differences that remain if a good solid technique is used. Read my description of why one would not want equalized tensions and why one would want slightly higher NSL tension. I would be interested in your comment. Btw, this is not just my opinion, but the opinion of technicians with much more experience than me.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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2000 Post Club Member
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Hi, Mark.
I differentiate between very springy pins, springy pins, not do springy pins, all of which are all assumed to be tight. Then there's tight but not springy pins, loose but tuneable pins and lots more degrees in between. I like your further distinction of stickiness and the amount of rubbing sensation.
In NSL tension analysis, the tuner doesn't care about how springy the pins are or how tight the pinblock is. If the string doesn't stay, you just do what ever will add or subtract to the NSL tension that was left. But recognizing the degree of springiness, pin tightness, NSL length, etc, can help the tuner guess at a technique that would have a better chance of success.
I also appreciate the differences in describing the leaning of the pin. Some words are stronger than others to different people with different linguistic backgrounds and connotations associated with words. I can see where this would lead to bringing in a whole new set of words to avoid the additional meanings given by each persons' individual history. That has even more pitfalls, it seems.
Really, the leaning must be the least amount possible. Any beginner can assume they are using too much.
The only real problem I have with what you describe, and I may be still misunderstanding, is the leaning of the pin towards the string as a final move before leaving the pin and going on to the next. This is a sort of schroedingers' cat situation bacause if the pin is leaned towards the string and the pitch doesn't change, I have no way of knowing how much tension I have left in the non speaking length. Even if the pitch does change, I still have no way of knowing other than guessing unless I can feel it spring back. I know from the start that the pin is leaning as far forward as it needs because the first thing I do is put it there. Not the last.
This is why the lean must be the smallest amount possible. If there is no change, that means NSL tension is not near the bottom or the pitch would have dropped. If it does drop, that means the NSL tension was too low for stability. The speaking length tension will drop (pitch) and the range of stable NSL tensions will also drop. Unbending will bring the NSL tension back up to about where it was, but higher in the tension range. In both these cases, NSL tension is confirmed or left off the bottom, and hence, stable.
My problem with three o'clock to raise the pitch is the miaw made by the overpull. This, apart from moving the string more than I need to, is not an elegant tuning sound.
No over pull. Bring to pitch and stop. When at pitch, the removal of lever force will unbend toward string and untwist toward string, both lowering NSL tension. And time will settle the pin toward the string too. But, with a long NSL and moderately firm pins (not tight), you got a chance that NSL tension will not drop too much.
I can tell when a piano has been tuned at three o'clock by the large amount of wire I can wind onto the pin by using a 12-1 position.
Meaning, before the pitch changes? If so, that means low NSL tension. Yes, possible result with 3:00. Not ideal, but fast. If doesn't feel right, just use 12:00 pull up to pitch. No unbending means less NSL tension drop, and much less if any settling over time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the more wire there is on the pin, the less wire there is available to drift into the speaking length over a long time or a short time.
No. The "over time" component is strictly a function of the pin settling back to its bent and twisted state. It is a very tiny amount, but does relax the NSL a tiny bit. And if the NSL has been left low in the range, can be enough to cause it to slip. I really should make some videos. This stuff is so easy to see when I take measurements before and after hard blows. Thanks again for taking the time to ask questions. I would like to make some videos to demonstrate. Next couple of days. Look for a new thread. OK. Hold all those thoughts right there and add one component. The degree of thumb pressure on the shaft of the lever that is used to counteract the leaning of the pin caused by the rotation of the lever. this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns let me repeat that. ; this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns. This may indeed be the dark side but it enables me to be a gentleman of leisure as I keep in tune some fifty grands that are subject to string breaking levels of playing 14-7. They stay in tune with minimum attention. Even when a string breaks, the other strings of that unison don't move. it is also the reason I am entrusted with tuning for high profile concerts where a lot is riding on the tuning. My senior colleagues and I find that it takes a couple of years to integrate a new tuner into our system where we follow each others tunings without disturbing the work of the rest of us. The most important aspect of this is, of course, the position the pins are left in and our need to wind on more wire when following a new person, whether fresh out if school or with years of experience. Too many years of getting away with sloppy tunings on domestic pianos is, of course, no place to begin even considering taking someone onto the team. Sorry if that sounds elitist but there it is. It is a joy to follow a tuner as they eventually "get it". Some never quite doU and it can't be taught. It can only be learned from following the work of exceptional tuners who have been doing this class of work for forty years or more. I remember it all dawning on me after many years of what I thought was "experience". Among the many things that Franz Mohr taught me all those years ago was;" always turn the pin". It was still a while before I really got that even though I immediately started to always turn the pin. Following some others, I find myself winding more wire on even if the string was solidly sharp!!! I can't think of any mechanical advantage that would remove this twisting feel before the pin turns but I can assure everybody that it does. All I know is that I am using more thumb pressure than would be thought necessary just to keep the pin from leaning. Or, at least that's the best I can describe how it feels. it isn't necessary on every pin. Fortunately. Hit its good to have the skill. Don't try it on very springy pins to start with, but with practice, it works on all but the springiest. . It is an aquired skill for which I can find no basis in theory. I hope you can, Mark. That would be a real breakthrough. Please try it and persevere with it. If you can find a mechanical theory why this should be possible, that would be a big advance. The thumb pressure is one of the oldest tricks in the book but I so seldom see it in videos of tuning. I know that I find it more difficult with tight pins in a softer pin block but with good pianos it is a game changer for me. It removes a large percentage of unnecessary movement but does not remove the need for all the other aspects of pin feel. To the best of my knowledge, some manufacturers tuners do the exact opposite of what you are recommending and many tuners, mostly German trained will give the lever handle a hearty slap in a clockwise direction from aporox 1.30-2oclock. This will, of course flex the lever away from the string and at the same time rotating the pin. Both will increase the non speaking length tension without being hearty enough to change the speaking length pitch. They will do this on every pin in the piano. I have observed tuners who do this go be very solid. Are they wrong?? Please try to explain what this thumb pressure is. What part if the hammer? Which direction? I will try to analize from an engineering pov. A video with some ETD measurements would be great. Mark, me ol' darlin'. As often happens in forums, every thing I have written on this thread has been predicated on my three seprerate references to the photograph of Lucas holding his tuning lever in the classic piano tuners' grip in the third photograph down in Bills' opening post in his thread "Educating Lucas,too". The main function of this grip is to counteract the tendency of the pin to lean while it is being rotated by the lever. The mechanics of this aspect are readily appreciated. However, there is another aspect where if this grip is used at twelve o'clock, and additional thumb pressure is used, the pin can be turned without the springy twist (that occurs in springy pins before the pin actually turns). While this phenomenon is not a majic bullet, it has been essential to me as long as I can remember. When I came back to London, I found that the three top tuners here were each seperately well aware of this phenomenon, referring to "turning without twisting and twisting without turning" as two of the distinctive ways of manipulating the lever. It is A slightly awkward position and not always necessary. I normally use a one thirty position but will move the lever to twelve or even eleven thirty if the pin seems to want it. The phenomenon is achievable st two o'clock but near impossible at three. If anybody wants to try it, don't start practicing on really springy pins, the average person would just give up. Too frustrating. Start with pins that have a little twist when turning them and work up to really springy pins at twelve o'clock. This forum has been populated by pseudo scientists who hold the opinion that; "if I can't measure it with my limited equipment, and if I can't hear it and if I can't do it with my meagre skills, then it can't possibly exist or be true". I am confident that You will see immediately the mechanics behind this phenomenon. Qq In tuning a grand, to me, any other grip is like a golfer holding the golf club like a tennis racquet. On an upright, this grip is easily adapted but may feel awkward at first.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Hey rxd
Your homies the London Symphony is here at Mondavi in sunny Davis California where global warming happens to be focused for the moment to the dislike of those on the east coast.
Regardless
If you give your name l will let it be known to anyone in the orchestra you choose that you are known and appreciated on an international scale.
Speak up and I'll fix you up at no cost to you
Not need to thank me
x-rpt
retired ptg member
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571 |
Hey rxd
Your homies the London Symphony is here at Mondavi in sunny Davis California where global warming happens to be focused for the moment to the dislike of those on the east coast.
Regardless
If you give your name l will let it be known to anyone in the orchestra you choose that you are known and appreciated on an international scale.
Speak up and I'll fix you up at no cost to you
Not need to thank me
What a strange and weird post. One of my closest friends is on that tour. She gave me a copy of their itinerary. I note the Shostakovich 1 is on the program. Are you tuning the piano for that? It's been almost twenty years since I was in that neck of the woods. Can you recommend a good steakhouse for after the show? It would be fun to text her with an up to date recommendation.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
Steak in Davis?
I think they are all veggies and drive electric cars
Closest thing would be Murder Burgers
Tofu stakes possibly
I'd need to ask around for that
Last edited by Gene Nelson; 03/21/15 09:17 PM.
x-rpt
retired ptg member
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571 |
Yes, I'm familiar with the reputation of most state university towns held by people who don't live there. (-"I think...." is the clue)
I assume you're not the tuner involved
Don't worry, they already sussed one out before you did, very close. Burgers don't cut it on the road.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,685 |
And I assume you don't know any of these artists
You don't answer questions directly but I get it
x-rpt
retired ptg member
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571
2000 Post Club Member
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2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,571 |
If this is an apology, I graciously accept.
Thank you.
Gene, your obsession with me is getting quite scary. As are your groundless accusations.
I was about to report an earlier post of yours that also showed this tendency but I noticed that you later had the good sense to severely edit it.
Perhaps you wil eventually realise my preference for anonymity when there are posts like yours. some verge on the psychotic.
Those central to my profession know exactly who I am.
I will inform the moderators of furtherance of this on your part.
Please cease and desist.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
3000 Post Club Member
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3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087 |
Hi, Mark.
I differentiate between very springy pins, springy pins, not do springy pins, all of which are all assumed to be tight. Then there's tight but not springy pins, loose but tuneable pins and lots more degrees in between. I like your further distinction of stickiness and the amount of rubbing sensation.
In NSL tension analysis, the tuner doesn't care about how springy the pins are or how tight the pinblock is. If the string doesn't stay, you just do what ever will add or subtract to the NSL tension that was left. But recognizing the degree of springiness, pin tightness, NSL length, etc, can help the tuner guess at a technique that would have a better chance of success.
I also appreciate the differences in describing the leaning of the pin. Some words are stronger than others to different people with different linguistic backgrounds and connotations associated with words. I can see where this would lead to bringing in a whole new set of words to avoid the additional meanings given by each persons' individual history. That has even more pitfalls, it seems.
Really, the leaning must be the least amount possible. Any beginner can assume they are using too much.
The only real problem I have with what you describe, and I may be still misunderstanding, is the leaning of the pin towards the string as a final move before leaving the pin and going on to the next. This is a sort of schroedingers' cat situation bacause if the pin is leaned towards the string and the pitch doesn't change, I have no way of knowing how much tension I have left in the non speaking length. Even if the pitch does change, I still have no way of knowing other than guessing unless I can feel it spring back. I know from the start that the pin is leaning as far forward as it needs because the first thing I do is put it there. Not the last.
This is why the lean must be the smallest amount possible. If there is no change, that means NSL tension is not near the bottom or the pitch would have dropped. If it does drop, that means the NSL tension was too low for stability. The speaking length tension will drop (pitch) and the range of stable NSL tensions will also drop. Unbending will bring the NSL tension back up to about where it was, but higher in the tension range. In both these cases, NSL tension is confirmed or left off the bottom, and hence, stable.
My problem with three o'clock to raise the pitch is the miaw made by the overpull. This, apart from moving the string more than I need to, is not an elegant tuning sound.
No over pull. Bring to pitch and stop. When at pitch, the removal of lever force will unbend toward string and untwist toward string, both lowering NSL tension. And time will settle the pin toward the string too. But, with a long NSL and moderately firm pins (not tight), you got a chance that NSL tension will not drop too much.
I can tell when a piano has been tuned at three o'clock by the large amount of wire I can wind onto the pin by using a 12-1 position.
Meaning, before the pitch changes? If so, that means low NSL tension. Yes, possible result with 3:00. Not ideal, but fast. If doesn't feel right, just use 12:00 pull up to pitch. No unbending means less NSL tension drop, and much less if any settling over time.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the more wire there is on the pin, the less wire there is available to drift into the speaking length over a long time or a short time.
No. The "over time" component is strictly a function of the pin settling back to its bent and twisted state. It is a very tiny amount, but does relax the NSL a tiny bit. And if the NSL has been left low in the range, can be enough to cause it to slip. I really should make some videos. This stuff is so easy to see when I take measurements before and after hard blows. Thanks again for taking the time to ask questions. I would like to make some videos to demonstrate. Next couple of days. Look for a new thread. OK. Hold all those thoughts right there and add one component. The degree of thumb pressure on the shaft of the lever that is used to counteract the leaning of the pin caused by the rotation of the lever. this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns let me repeat that. ; this grip will also remove the twisting of the pin before it turns. This may indeed be the dark side but it enables me to be a gentleman of leisure as I keep in tune some fifty grands that are subject to string breaking levels of playing 14-7. They stay in tune with minimum attention. Even when a string breaks, the other strings of that unison don't move. it is also the reason I am entrusted with tuning for high profile concerts where a lot is riding on the tuning. My senior colleagues and I find that it takes a couple of years to integrate a new tuner into our system where we follow each others tunings without disturbing the work of the rest of us. The most important aspect of this is, of course, the position the pins are left in and our need to wind on more wire when following a new person, whether fresh out if school or with years of experience. Too many years of getting away with sloppy tunings on domestic pianos is, of course, no place to begin even considering taking someone onto the team. Sorry if that sounds elitist but there it is. It is a joy to follow a tuner as they eventually "get it". Some never quite doU and it can't be taught. It can only be learned from following the work of exceptional tuners who have been doing this class of work for forty years or more. I remember it all dawning on me after many years of what I thought was "experience". Among the many things that Franz Mohr taught me all those years ago was;" always turn the pin". It was still a while before I really got that even though I immediately started to always turn the pin. Following some others, I find myself winding more wire on even if the string was solidly sharp!!! I can't think of any mechanical advantage that would remove this twisting feel before the pin turns but I can assure everybody that it does. All I know is that I am using more thumb pressure than would be thought necessary just to keep the pin from leaning. Or, at least that's the best I can describe how it feels. it isn't necessary on every pin. Fortunately. Hit its good to have the skill. Don't try it on very springy pins to start with, but with practice, it works on all but the springiest. . It is an aquired skill for which I can find no basis in theory. I hope you can, Mark. That would be a real breakthrough. Please try it and persevere with it. If you can find a mechanical theory why this should be possible, that would be a big advance. The thumb pressure is one of the oldest tricks in the book but I so seldom see it in videos of tuning. I know that I find it more difficult with tight pins in a softer pin block but with good pianos it is a game changer for me. It removes a large percentage of unnecessary movement but does not remove the need for all the other aspects of pin feel. To the best of my knowledge, some manufacturers tuners do the exact opposite of what you are recommending and many tuners, mostly German trained will give the lever handle a hearty slap in a clockwise direction from aporox 1.30-2oclock. This will, of course flex the lever away from the string and at the same time rotating the pin. Both will increase the non speaking length tension without being hearty enough to change the speaking length pitch. They will do this on every pin in the piano. I have observed tuners who do this go be very solid. Are they wrong?? Please try to explain what this thumb pressure is. What part if the hammer? Which direction? I will try to analize from an engineering pov. A video with some ETD measurements would be great. Mark, me ol' darlin'. As often happens in forums, every thing I have written on this thread has been predicated on my three seprerate references to the photograph of Lucas holding his tuning lever in the classic piano tuners' grip in the third photograph down in Bills' opening post in his thread "Educating Lucas,too". The main function of this grip is to counteract the tendency of the pin to lean while it is being rotated by the lever. The mechanics of this aspect are readily appreciated. However, there is another aspect where if this grip is used at twelve o'clock, and additional thumb pressure is used, the pin can be turned without the springy twist (that occurs in springy pins before the pin actually turns). While this phenomenon is not a majic bullet, it has been essential to me as long as I can remember. When I came back to London, I found that the three top tuners here were each seperately well aware of this phenomenon, referring to "turning without twisting and twisting without turning" as two of the distinctive ways of manipulating the lever. It is A slightly awkward position and not always necessary. I normally use a one thirty position but will move the lever to twelve or even eleven thirty if the pin seems to want it. The phenomenon is achievable st two o'clock but near impossible at three. If anybody wants to try it, don't start practicing on really springy pins, the average person would just give up. Too frustrating. Start with pins that have a little twist when turning them and work up to really springy pins at twelve o'clock. This forum has been populated by pseudo scientists who hold the opinion that; "if I can't measure it with my limited equipment, and if I can't hear it and if I can't do it with my meagre skills, then it can't possibly exist or be true". I am confident that You will see immediately the mechanics behind this phenomenon. Qq In tuning a grand, to me, any other grip is like a golfer holding the golf club like a tennis racquet. On an upright, this grip is easily adapted but may feel awkward at first. Ok. I have to admit, I did to look at the picture until now. Me apologies. But now that I have, I can see how the hand can exert a twist on the lever that could negate the lean on the pin. But I am not convinced the twist would be enough. (It would be easy to measure its effect on stability. I will put it on my list of things to do). Certainly it would be hard to guess at. But I could definitely see it helping to keep NSL tension from dropping too much. Is that what you mean? Twisting the lever? Thumb pressure does not seem to be enough. Thumb pressure plus fingers pulling or pushing will add the lever twist. I have heard people mention this before. But, it would seem the lever twist is possible at 3:00. Do you say it is not effective because the induced lean parallel to the string is too much for the lever twist to have an effect? Also, I have no engineering explanation for how to turn a pin without twisting it, save using a T-lever. Can you please expand on "turning without twisting"? Obliged P.S. I do not know who you are, but I respect your posts and input just the same. It doesn't matter to me, nor should it to anyone else. Your posts and demeanour speak volumes. My signature has my name and website and anyone could contact me and read all about me on the internet, but I'm still a nobody :-)
Last edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT; 03/22/15 01:31 AM.
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Thanks, Mark,
First of all for your reassurance. I never think that there could be genuine loonies on this forum but sometimes I wonder. I used to ride to guild meetings with a tuner who killed his wife and daughter then himself. The outward behaviour that he exhibited never seemed that much different to me.
This thread also seems to be upsetting the piano banging fraternity.
However, to resume:
I'm not twisting the lever,
(although one poster when this subject was discussed at great length a couple of years ago talked of exerting a twist on the lever rather like a motorcycle accelerator which made sense to me and I tried it for a while but reverted to what I am describing). I will try to font this long thread for you. Some posters described it better than me.
To resume again:, not twisting the lever but exerting pressure with my thumb in order to counter the pulling with my fingers.
Imagine the pin set in loose sand with no string attached. A pull on the lever with no thumb pressure would pull the pin over before turning it. Add thumb pressure and with the right balance of push and pull I can turn the pin without pulling it over.
I used to use a very short lever and this put my thumb closer to the top of the lever head directly above the pin. This would provide a direct force to the pin in order to keep the pin upright almost like a T hammer. I am now doing the same thing but with a fulcrum about halfway down the lever formed by my thumb.
This fulcrum reverses the pulling force of my fingers while retaining the turning force so that the head of the lever is pushing the pin in the opposite direction to the pull of my fingers and so keeping the pin upright.
I may have got the mechanics a bit wrong but I can only hope I didn't confuse the issue even more.
The function of the thumb pressure seems quite logical to me but it's function in the elimination of the twist before turning if the pin is a mystery to me. I only know that it works somehow and that a very few others who have used this grip all their careers have noticed it develop and used it to advantage.
There have been two tuners in particular whose work was rather daunting to follow. One was Kenyon Brown in LA who I never met before he died but followed up on a few of his tunings and inherited some of his contracts. The other was John Anstey, now retired bit for fifty years the top concert tuner in London.
Both these gentlemen left the whole piano feeling more solid and bigger, somehow. They left the pins feeling like they were set in concrete. The pins felt more difficult to dislodge than normal and I felt as though I was desecrating something when I needed to correct a little drift here and there.
I'm not into hero worship but watching John tune was an education in itself. He referred to tuning a piano as 'giving it a little tickle'. I once remarked to a new tuner that John was the one to follow to which John replied that he felt the same about me. I never felt the equal of these two gentlemen. Maybe one day.
There's good solid tuners, I've worked alongside many, and then there's Ken and John. I'm sure there must be others but it's only in regularly following the work of these masters and attempting to leave the pins as they do does the realisation of what is possible happen. It can't be taught but can be caught (eventually, I hope).
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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lol
Ok
I'm a psycho if it makes you feel better
Cease it is
x-rpt
retired ptg member
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The function of the thumb pressure seems quite logical to me but it's function in the elimination of the twist before turning if the pin is a mystery to me. I only know that it works somehow and that a very few others who have used this grip all their careers have noticed it develop and used it to advantage.
I'm an untrained DIY tuner, but I found myself using exactly this action right from day one. It just seemed logical to me. I was concerned about pulling the pin over and possibly damaging the pinblock over time. I've worked a lot on cars in my time and you become very mindful of how you apply your forces if you want to avoid stripping/ damaging parts. I find the technique works well on a tuning lever, but can be a bit tiring. I've considered getting one of Dan Levitan's C-levers because they avoid this problem naturally because of the design.
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The function of the thumb pressure seems quite logical to me but it's function in the elimination of the twist before turning if the pin is a mystery to me. I only know that it works somehow and that a very few others who have used this grip all their careers have noticed it develop and used it to advantage.
I'm an untrained DIY tuner, but I found myself using exactly this action right from day one. It just seemed logical to me. I was concerned about pulling the pin over and possibly damaging the pinblock over time. I've worked a lot on cars in my time and you become very mindful of how you apply your forces if you want to avoid stripping/ damaging parts. I find the technique works well on a tuning lever, but can be a bit tiring. I've considered getting one of Dan Levitan's C-levers because they avoid this problem naturally because of the design. Ando, Yes! Exactly. (I serviced my own cars until one day I opened the hood of my new car and found three smaller round things instead of one big one. The real air filter was in a cubical box, I later discovered. I just put the hood back down and took it to the dealer. Have you found this phenomen of the twist disappearing? That's probably second nature also, for you, in order to prevent bolt heads from shearing off. I never thought of it that way before, but good car mechanics use the same delicate use of strength. If not more. That's exactly what I'm describing. Thank you.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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lol
Ok
I'm a psycho if it makes you feel better
Cease it is
Thank you. By the way, my real name is Amanda Reckonwith and I am, indeed Amanda Reckonwith by name and by nature.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Have you found this phenomen of the twist disappearing? That's probably second nature also, for you, in order to prevent bolt heads from shearing off.
I believe so, yes. And you are correct: it is second nature to mechanics. You become naturally attuned to finding the right axial force with minimal secondary force vectors using whatever tool you have at your disposal. If you fail to do this, you are likely to shear the corners of your bolts and then have torque/tightening problems. I like your pin in the sand analogy - I think it illustrates the problem perfectly.
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