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Topic Options
#2402456 - 03/25/15 11:34 AM FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
$100.

Comes with original box, all 7 dvd's, i-Lok with license on it.

The catch is that since Synthogy doesn't allow selling of their software, you'll just have to be me if you ever want to download an update (which I wouldn't hold my breath for anyway). So the license stays in my name. I'll give you my ID and password so you can access the site.

Anyway, what a deal. I already sold Vienna Imperial here. This one is next.


Edited by Fscotte (03/25/15 11:35 AM)

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#2402457 - 03/25/15 11:45 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 310
Fscotte, just out of curiosity. Of all that you've tried, what are you keeping?

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#2402552 - 03/25/15 05:42 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
I don't play enough piano to really get into sampled stuff anymore. I prefer the tone and fullness of my DGX-650. It just sounds so much fuller and more real to me than anything else. Maybe I prefer the "faky" tone of digital pianos.. I'd still like to try the Garritan CFX or Ravenscroft just to say that I did.

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#2404137 - Yesterday at 10:51 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
composingkeys3 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 14
Hi Fscotte,

The license agreement for Synthogy Ivory products states that the registered user of the product is only permitted to use it. When you buy a Synthogy product, the registered user of the product does not own the product but is instead given the right to use the product in their own recordings, ect according to the terms of the license agreement. The end user license agreement states that only the registered user is able to use the product so selling the software with the license on an iLok is not possible here. Synthogy also does not permit license transfers so I must kindly say that selling the product either on an iLok or via a license transfer would be breaking these terms.

You can email Synthogy directly at support@synthogy.com to see if any exceptions can be made however the agreement does not allow the product to be resold/transferred to another user.
_________________________
Austin
Sales and Technical Support
ILIO

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#2404139 - Yesterday at 11:05 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4031
Loc: North Carolina
ck3: Since the OP says he'll turn over the Ilok to the buyer, the transfer will work.
But for his sake I hope that he has only this one product on the Ilok.

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#2404159 - Today at 12:03 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: MacMacMac]
composingkeys3 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 14
Hi MacMacMac,

Unfortunately, this does not make this okay to do. Once the Ivory product serial has been registered to a person, only that person is licensed to use the product. When someone purchases an Ivory product or pretty much any virtual instrument, they don't own the product but simply are purchasing a license to use the product in their compositions. It depends what the license agreement covers as these details can be different on the company. Giving the iLok away to someone that contains this license is not legal as the license is bound to only the original user. The product is still on file as registered to the original user. Giving an iLok with this license to someone else does not change this fact.

This is part of the end user license agreement Synthogy has that every customer agrees to when registering and installing their Ivory product. The license permits the registered user the ability to play and record compositions using the product as many times as they like, etc but reselling the product is not possible because the license agreement itself does not permit this. A license transfer is also not permitted. It also causes issues in the future if someone buys a Synthogy product second hand from someone not realizing it is illegal and wants to upgrade the product only to find out that the serial belongs to the original user and an upgrade is not possible.

To put it simply, reselling the product by giving an iLok that has the product away is not permitted. This is because the agreement does not allow this.

If the user has any questions about the end user license agreement, they can contact Synthogy directly at support@synthogy.com.

Thanks!



Edited by composingkeys3 (Today at 12:06 AM)
_________________________
Austin
Sales and Technical Support
ILIO

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#2404288 - Today at 08:48 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 485
Loc: Switzerland
Austin, sorry to put it a bit bluntly, but I think Fscotte is clearly aware of this, and he doesn't care. I am not judging whether this is good or bad, just saying that he was very clear about this from the beginning (even concerning a possible update/upgrade). Probably it would be wiser for you to introduce some transfer fees, in order to avoid this, at least you would make some money on transfers.
On a different note (and off the subject), I do enjoy your products and personally would never sell them because their are my favorite virtual pianos. On the contrary, I am waiting for Ivory III (hope you will not stop at Ivory II). And hope you will make an ipad version of Ivory American, that would be awesome.
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2404298 - Today at 09:10 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: composingkeys3]
Thomas B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 53
Hi Austin,

end user agreements that prohibit resale might not be valid in some countries, see e.g Press statement for Case C-128/11.

Best regards,
Thomas

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#2404330 - Today at 10:07 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: composingkeys3]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By composingkeys3
... Giving the iLok away to someone that contains this license is not legal as the license is bound to only the original user. ... It also causes issues in the future if someone buys a Synthogy product second hand from someone not realizing it is illegal and wants to upgrade the product only to find out that the serial belongs to the original user and an upgrade is not possible.


At the risk of putting too fine a point on this, I don't think "illegal" is the proper term - at least not in many jurisdictions around the world where this post might be read.

The transaction is contrary to the corporate licensing agreement, but "illegal" typically means contrary to law. I'd gladly stand corrected if someone out there knows better.

In any event, I fully agree with the larger point: i.e., buying a licensed product where the license terms prohibit transfer - with or without an iLok - is fraught with complications that might not be worth even this generous discount. Food for thought.

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#2404355 - Today at 10:48 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 381
What if the license is simply loaned -not sold- to the end user for educational purposes, and in return the lawful owner of the license gets a small donation in the amount of $100.00 for his -yet to be determined- foundation.

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#2404365 - Today at 11:02 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Pete14]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By Pete14
What if the license is simply loaned -not sold- to the end user for educational purposes, and in return the lawful owner of the license gets a small donation in the amount of $100.00 for his -yet to be determined- foundation.


Hard to tell if you can even loan it to anyone ... the Synthology website doesn't make it easy to find their license agreement. Perhaps it's one of those massive text files in 6point font you must read and click "agree" after you've bought it but before you get to play your first note smirk

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#2404366 - Today at 11:03 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
I understand all the terms from Synthogy. It's not that I do not care, but I simply do not want/need/use the product anymore. Nor will I in the future.

The bottom line is that the i-Lok works, the software will install to your computer, and you'll have no issues whatsoever using it. I can and will also provide the new user my Synthogy ID and password in case they ever need to upgrade, so there would be no issues there as well.

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#2404391 - Today at 11:43 AM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4031
Loc: North Carolina
Good for you, fscotte.

The no-resale clause is obnoxious. I can understand that the publisher does not want multiple users on a single-license sale. But the Ilok ensures that.

Anything more restrictive is just plain abuse.

Adobe takes a more enlightened view. One sale, one license ... and two installs and usages are permitted: one at the office, another at home ... so long as both are not in use at the same time.

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#2404434 - Today at 01:15 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
jtsn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/14
Posts: 201
Loc: Europe
In no jurisdiction it is illegal to sell the box and the iLok device. The issue is: The buyer may just acquire a nice doorstop and it may just be illegal for him (the buyer) to run and use the software.

The other issue is that the buyer has no way to prove that he is the rightful owner of the product and the iLok key. Once the device breaks (and iLoks are prone to break), he may send it in, but a replacement will never return.

If the product was first*) sold in a jurisdiction, where resale restrictions on "used software" are forbidden (like EU), the seller may just request the transfer of the license to the iLok key of the buyer. Otherwise you are out of luck.

*) That's important.
_________________________
Hardware: Kawai ES100, Yamaha NP-31 (lent out), Steinberg UR22
Software: Moddart Pianoteq 5, Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D

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#2404441 - Today at 01:25 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
augustm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/15
Posts: 8
US has First-sale doctrine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Just because its written in a license, it does not have to be true...

"Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. "

I'm not a lawyer, but they are on very fragile ground.

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#2404454 - Today at 01:55 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: augustm]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By augustm
US has First-sale doctrine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Just because its written in a license, it does not have to be true...

"Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. "


Even if the seller lives in the US, this creative work wasn't sold or transferred gratuitously (gift). It was licensed subject to terms accepted by the licensee - likely when he clicked on one of those absurd agreement boxes during installation or opened the box. Since it wasn't sold, a first-sale doctrine wouldn't apply.

Yes, practically speaking, he can exchange it for cash... but a buyer may not wind up getting quite what was bargained for (e.g., no support, no upgrade, could be "cut off" from access if technologically feasible by the sofware company). Not sure if impersonating the original owner has any ramifications, but of course Synthology is probably focused on other business priorities.

It seems self-defeating for Synthology to adopt this policy; the value of their software could be higher if it were transferable, and presumably folks might otherwise be willing to pay even more upfront for an original licensed copy knowing they could sell it on eBay to another happy owner down the road (subject to registration transfer and the same piracy protections) without facing the concerns being raised here.

Nonetheless, for these and other reasons cited above, caveat emptor is wise counsel.

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#2404460 - Today at 02:13 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4031
Loc: North Carolina
I read the cited Wiki article.

I cannot vouch for its correctness, but it plainly states that what augustm says is correct. The OP bought the physical items, so they were sold. And so he can subsequently sell (or gift) those items as he wishes.

Also in that Wiki: In Europe, even a downloaded software item, if properly purchased, is deemed an item that can be resold. Both the original sale and any subsequent resale conveys the right to use (but not to copy). In the US, downloaded software does not come with that freedom (if purchased under an appropriate right-to-use license). But it seems that rulings along those lines are shifting.

In any case, neither the OP nor any subsequent holder can claim ownership of the copyrighted work, but each, in his turn, has ownership of the physical embodiment, and the right to use it.

So it's no different than buying a record or a DVD. I own the disk now. When I sell it to you, you own it. We each, in turn, have the right to use it ... but not the right to copy it.

As augustm said: "Just because it's written in a license, it does not have to be true..."
That is, the law trumps the license terms.

The only loss to the second purchaser might be lack of support. But given the OP's asking price of $100 (compared to 3x or 4x that for a purchase from Synthogy), the lack of support pales.

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#2404468 - Today at 02:31 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: MacMacMac]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By MacMacMac
I read the cited Wiki article.

I cannot vouch for its correctness, but it plainly states that what augustm says is correct. The OP bought the physical items, so they were sold. And so he can subsequently sell (or gift) those items as he wishes.

Neither the OP nor any subsequent holder can claim ownership of the copyrighted work, but each, in his turn, has ownership of the physical embodiment, and the right to use it.

So it's no different that buying a record or a DVD. I own the disk now. When I sell it to you, you own it. We each, in turn, have the right to use it ... but not the right to copy it.

As augustm said: "Just because it's written in a license, it does not have to be true..."
That is, the law trumps the license terms.

The only loss to the second purchaser might be lack of support. But given the OP's asking price of $100 (compared to 3x or 4x that for a purchase from Synthogy), the lack of support pales.


As a consumer, I wish it were so. (I think we're saying the same thing but perhaps drawing different conclusions?)

The creative work (software) wasn't sold any more than the song rights are sold when buying a CD. If it were actually being sold, then Synthology would have no right to refuse support that was included in the original purchase.

At least in the US there are clear limitations on what you can do with a CD or DVD (sure you can sell the plastic, but as a licensee of the creative work inside, you still can't play it commercially without paying royalties in your restaurant or radio station, etc., because you didn't buy the creative work itself.) You simply don't own it - you basically own a piece of plastic.

Similarly, when you buy an iloq device it likely has restrictions, again, not on the plastic hardware itself but on the logical software contained within. Of course those terms might be entirely different from Synthology's terms.

But we can relax ... Synthology isn't going to sue anyone over this. They're busy making the next upgrade version.

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#2404475 - Today at 02:45 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Thomas B]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 708
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By Thomas B
Hi Austin,

end user agreements that prohibit resale might not be valid in some countries, see e.g Press statement for Case C-128/11.

Best regards,
Thomas

Yeah I read this somewhere else. In fact, what is illegal is: to prevent people from re-selling their licences. If Synthogy want to operate in Europe, they are obliged to allow and facilitate license transfers.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage / Galaxy Vintage D
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2404479 - Today at 02:53 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: lolatu]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By lolatu
Yeah I read this somewhere else. In fact, what is illegal is: to prevent people from re-selling their licences. If Synthogy want to operate in Europe, they are obliged to allow and facilitate license transfers.


Thank you for that ... good to know. As a consumer I sure like the European ground rules better!

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#2404497 - Today at 03:41 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
Hey guys, it's just $100. I'm a bit surprised no one is interested. I understand the license thing scaring someone away, but for $100, sheesh, I've spent more just to see what a sample sounds like...

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#2404509 - Today at 04:00 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Digitalguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/14
Posts: 485
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By Fscotte
Hey guys, it's just $100. I'm a bit surprised no one is interested. I understand the license thing scaring someone away, but for $100, sheesh, I've spent more just to see what a sample sounds like...


I think there are some additional points that could be inconvenient to some. First, if they already have an ilok, it could be tricky, I don't know if using 2 iloks (belonging to 2 different people) on the same pc would create problem (anyone has experience?). If they don't have one, well they cannot use this ilok for other software (so it would just be for ACD). Also, there is a point that is not clear, are you including the shipping cost of the ilok in the price. And if so all over the world? Or for a specific country?
_________________________
Roland FP-4F, Korg Kross 61, iRig Keys Pro, Focal Spirit Pro, Shure SRH240A, RME Babyface, M-Track Plus, Roland DuoCapture, iPad Air, iLoud, Ivory II ACD, Galaxy Vintage D, Galaxy Steinway, TrueKeys American, VILabs Ravenscroft, Kawai-Ex Pro, The Grand 2, SampleTekk Black, Addictive Keys, Ezkeys

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#2404510 - Today at 04:02 PM Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
Shipping included, USA only.

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#2404612 - 33 minutes 52 seconds ago Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4031
Loc: North Carolina
Actually, I'm interested, but not motivated.
Originally Posted By Fscotte
Hey guys, it's just $100. I'm a bit surprised no one is interested. I understand the license thing scaring someone away, but for $100, sheesh, I've spent more just to see what a sample sounds like...
I already own around two dozen software piano suites, of which I frequently use three and occasionally four others. I simply own too many.

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#2404616 - 26 minutes 6 seconds ago Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: OneWatt]
MacMacMac Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 4031
Loc: North Carolina
Our difference comes down to a distinction between ownership of the original work vs. ownership of the physical embodiment.
Originally Posted By OneWatt
As a consumer, I wish it were so. (I think we're saying the same thing but perhaps drawing different conclusions?)

The creative work (software) wasn't sold any more than the song rights are sold when buying a CD. If it were actually being sold, then Synthology would have no right to refuse support that was included in the original purchase.
When I buy the media (CD, DVD, or otherwise) I absolutely own the disks. They're mine. I have license to use them.

But, unless I've contracted the development of the product, I do not own the original work. As such I may not copy that work without specific consent from the owner.

The physical embodiment lies in the media. The original work is the software contained therein. The law grants different rights to the two.

It appears that the OP owns purchased physical media. They are his to use, and his to sell. (And likewise the Ilok.)

But he may not make copies ... and I see no indication of such intent.

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#2404623 - 4 minutes 19 seconds ago Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
Fscotte Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 54
That's what I believe. I cannot even do anything with the I-Lok Synthogy license, I can't uninstall it, I can't copy it, I can't erase it. The i-Lok license is a permanent part of the i-Lok so they are essentially one physical device. Very much like used CD's, DVD's, etc..

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#2404624 - 2 minutes 47 seconds ago Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: MacMacMac]
OneWatt Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 120
Loc: Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted By MacMacMac
Our difference comes down to a distinction between ownership of the original work vs. ownership of the physical embodiment.
Originally Posted By OneWatt
As a consumer, I wish it were so. (I think we're saying the same thing but perhaps drawing different conclusions?)

When I buy the media (CD, DVD, or otherwise) I absolutely own the disks. They're mine. I have license to use them.

But, unless I've contracted the development of the product, I do not own the original work. As such I may not copy that work without specific consent from the owner.

The physical embodiment lies in the media. The original work is the software contained therein. The law grants different rights to the two.

It appears that the OP owns purchased physical media. They are his to use, and his to sell. (And likewise the Ilok.)

But he may not make copies ... and I see no indication of such intent.


@MacMacMac - You may well be on to something here ... as it now seems our OP seeks to have an out-of-physical-embodiment experience. wink I certainly prefer your answer to mine. Best wishes - OneWatt

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#2404625 - 2 minutes 42 seconds ago Re: FS: Synthogy Ivory II American Concert D [Re: Fscotte]
krikorik Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 92
Loc: AZ
Let me see if I understand it:
1-This is a legal transaction
2-It breaks a EUA condition
3-The broken EUA condition is illegal in the first place

If the points above are correct I can buy it. Not sure how to verify #3 given all what's discussed

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