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Hi,

I have been got lots of help from the forum when I question about the touch weight of a steinway that I was interested. I found the availability of used piano is quite limited from where I live and future risk is not something that I can comfortably handle.

Now I got very good offer from both Yamaha, and Kawai. Sorry, I can't dispose the actual number here. And I can't compare the 2 side by side, and I am not good enough to tell. When I was at the two store, I fell both sound quite nice.

So my questions, I can save $4500 if go for C3X, should I go far that saving. My piano teacher thinks that is not a correct question to ask :-)

Any suggests are welcome.

Both Yamaha and Kawai are very nice pianos but,like all pianos, they can only be compared in terms of 'comparable models'. For example a 6'1 C3 compares to an RX3 of same size and similar quality. Not some of their lower rated models.

The moment one compares one model of one maker to a lower rated "entry level" by the other, things get quickly out of whack. Many people have stated that they prefer Kawai for their reportedly 'softer' tone but this may not be true for every single instrument nor is it necessarily true for the entire scale of the piano. So much for having fun shopping..

From own experience, many experienced pianist focus on parts often forgotten by beginner such as the treble of a piano. This is not only the 'melodic' part of the instrument but also the toughest to make sound truly musical. Often making a big difference in later satisfaction for owners when the piano has brightened itself one more notch by simply being played in.

In fact, unpleasant trebles developing later seems to be one of the strongest reasons why many pianists upgrade their pianos later in life - an often financially less than pleasant experience.

On final thought: always compare different pianos also in terms of their actually 'comparable' cost. We just sold a new grand to a Nanaimo pianist who had looked for quite a while at pianos in the range of 10k higher.

It's nice to get a piano you like for "less" - the trick of efficient shopping in today's super competitive market.

Perhaps a piano of equal attraction to those you mentioned exists. Including looking perhaps also in some higher tiers and see if anybody there could perhaps match the price.

One never knows....

Norbert

These two pianos are not the same level. The C3X is Yamaha's main stream production level piano, roughly equivalent to the Kawai GX-3.

A Shigeru Kawai SK-3 is a much higher priced and more refined instrument. So either the Yamaha C3X is being offered at a rather high markup, or the Shigeru is being offered at a very low price.

But really, which one do you prefer? You can't play them side by side, but these pianos should have very different characters, both in tone and touch. Go for the one that speaks to you! Make sure the dealers have the pianos in tune, and spend some time playing them.

I agree with Norbert that the Shigeru SK-3L vs the Yamaha C3X isn't really a fair comparison, as the Kawai GX-3 is a closer match in materials, build quality, price, and market segment. Having said that, I have not had the chance to compare the two side-by-side, or even on the same day (you can do this at the NAMM show, but the main Yamaha booth is utter mayhem where nobody can hear above the wall of sound coming from all directions).

Both pianos are far better than what many advanced pianists get to play on a daily basis. If you can't tell a difference, then there's little point in spending more.

Thanks both Norbert and Don.

I don't know why, but back to quite a few years ago, when I shopped for an upright and absolutely not thought about grand, also knew nothing about them. Shigeru left me such an impression, that I wanted to go back to it. I never like C3. I gave up a couple of chance to buy a excellent condition used C3 at good price. C3X sounds good too me. SK3 is definitely better than the other GXs in the store.

The fun thing is my son loves Estonia, my daughter said she would only practise on yamaha grand, and I still like Shigeru, even I has not spent enough time in the store.

+1 for Kawai Don.

Play the damned things again. If you prefer the tone and touch of the Shigeru Kawai SK3, tell the Kawai dealer that you like the Yamaha C3X about as much but it costs less than the SK3. See if the Kawai dealer will lower the price of his piano to close the sale.

If you prefer the tone and touch of the Yamaha C3X, tell the Yamaha dealer that the Shigeru Kawai SK3 is a more refined instrument but it is only a few thousand dollars more than the C3X. See if the Yamaha dealer will lower the price of HIS piano to close the sale.

If you really can't choose between the too, play the dealers off against each other as suggested above, and go for the cheaper one. If the two dealers offer the same price, go for the dealer which you prefer doing business with - because of better service, more convenient location, better rapport between you and the dealer, or whatever reason is most important to you.

Yamaha and Kawai are arch-rivals. Play their rivalries against each other to your advantage.

Just listening to the SK3 on youtube I can say it's not as nice a sound as the C3X that I own- bit tinny! You can also aftermarket tone Yamaha's new pianos to sound VERY nice and unique. Their components are basically Bosendorffian now. IMO no competition anymore between Kawai and Yamaha, Yamaha are much better.

Sirwormsalot - I am very much an admirer of the changes that have befallen the new CX series Yamaha pianos (see my review in the Piano Buyer). However, much of what you say is ridiculous:

1. Characterizing the sound of new Shigeru Kawais as "tinny" seems, quite frankly, absurd. I've played 3 SK-3 pianos (both new and used, and at different dealers) in the last month, and probably 9 of this specific model since 2006. None of them were "tinny". To base one's entire opinion of a piano based on a Youtube video is foolish for a litany of reasons.

2. Although the unification of Yamaha and Bosendorfer has, by most accounts, been mutually beneficial, the components of your C3X are not "Bosendorffian" now. A Yamaha C3X does not sound or feel like a Bosendorfer 185. It just doesn't. If you believe this after playing several Yamaha and Bosendorfer pianos in-person, I would suggest availing oneself of the services of an audiologist. This is not a slight to Yamaha, nor is it Bosendorfer; the tonal profile, feel, and overall goals of the Bosendorfer and that of even Yamaha's premium-line CF series are markedly different, even if one may have inherited a design element or two from the other.

Fang, how old are your kids? Has your daughter played many other non-Yamaha pianos?

+1 to terminaldegree....

My two cents: Both are excellent pianos. The Shigeru is in a higher league in terms of build and materials used, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you, personally, will prefer the touch and tone of it. All pianos must be taken on an individual basis.

If these are the only two pianos available to you, for instance, then buy the one that you like best. You know what, I wish my parents had bought me something as good as a Yamaha C3 when I was learning, because I started out on a Yamaha PSR-36 keyboard, before moving on to a straight strung over-damped upright without a name on it, then a Challen, then a Knight.... all uprights!

I played a Yamaha C3X a couple of years ago (so quite a while) and I thought it was beautiful, and when I was shopping for the piano I have now I tried the Yamaha C3XA, Shigeru SK3, Shigeru SK6, Boston PE193 etc, and they were all pretty good. Had it not been for the piano which kind of landed on my lap, I'd have been happy with any of them. I must admit that of the Japanese pianos I tried, my personal favourite was the Boston PE193, then the Shigeru SK3, then the Yamaha C3XA, but honestly there wasn't much between them.

Well, I haven't played the SK3 and the only C3X I have played is mine. Admittedly I only saw one video of an SK3 on youtube and made my judgement. The bass seemed a bit metallic and harsh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89jYYWMDZwQ

Watch this video for an idea of what I mean when I say the C3X is like Bosendorfer. You can hear the C3X, CF6 and Hummingbird compared together. To my ears, the Bosie sounds like the Yamaha's except it has a slightly airier sound to it. IMO, I would love my C3X to be toned like the one in this video but for some reason my tuner didn't want to 'ruin it'. As it is now, my own Yamaha sounds kind of cookie-cutter, but I know the C3X is capable of a much more interesting sound. Kawai pianos don't have this uniqueness I feel, but that's just my personal opinion.

I saw the video, and between the casual recording technique (looks like it was a smartphone mic) and all of the noise in the background, I don't think a reasonable person could come away with any real opinion of what the pianos sound like from that video.

In the selection of piano buyers should understand that manufacturers set different goals for themselves right from the beginning. Piano Buyer recognizes this and has always rated pianos according to quality which can be somehow discerned. There *are* differences and they can be substantial especially over time.

A Yamaha CX may be a fine piano but it's not in the same league as their higher rated and much more elaborate S-series grands.

If this would be the case, Yamaha would waste their time making the S-series. Same is true for Kawai: their Shigeru series was designed to compete with pianos in or same near tier. Pianos such as Yamaha S, Schimmel, Mason, Estonia, etc.

If someone likes a piano it's certainly nice but this does not escape the fact that some pianos are build to higher standard than others. Expectations of these pianos are simply higher.

The truth of this matter regularly evolves as pianists become more advanced, develop a finer hearing and then realize that pianos age and perform differently as time goes by.

"Liking" a piano is fine and dandy, but "liking" a piano tomorrow and in years to come is a slightly different matter.

Norbert

Is it the SK-3 or SK-3L? Those two are as different as the RX-3 and GX-3. If it's the SK-3, the model being phased out, that might explain the discount.

It think It's SK-3L.

My daughter is still young, it won't be hard for me to convince her to practise on the new grand, whether a Yamaha or not. It's just interesting about her claim. None of my kids or myself need such a fine piano, even in the near future. And as I am in the market, and I do have a little passion about piano myself, I want to find one, best one that I can afford. Good quality, good value, so I feel comfortable to spend the money on.

I will spend more time on the piano this weekend and decide there :-)

Norbert, every Yamaha S6 I have played (3) has seemed to have bad action and sound compared to the new C3X, despite having a much larger price tag. Can't speak for the C1X or C2X because I have no experience with them and they don't have the same soundboard as the C3X. Granted the S6s seem to have been built before Yamaha's acquisition of Bosendorfer and consequently will not have the same quality materials. Plus I think they were quite old. Do you know if the S series is still being produced and if they use updated materials? Or was it replaced by the CF series? All these letters and numbers are so confusing!

Now that's funny. Obviously, if you compare a youtube video to the real thing the latter will always win . And if it's a low quality recording like this one...

So if you bought an Estonia or a Shigeru then your daughter's going to throw a fit and quit the piano? Wow...

I can't comment on that but if what you say is true I would be very surprised. One just couldn't understand why substantial extra resources are spent by factory on a piano hailed by many as clearly superior over the C-series grands. Perhaps someone with more experience here can chime in here?



In over 30 years I have never observed a relationship between good-to-superior quality of a piano and a 'measurable' scale of progress by young students. What I have seen is a relationship between effort, dedication, motivation, teaching skills and yes - "talent".

It's not something you can simply buy choosing a particular make of piano. Sound is almost irrelevant unless it is matched by an artist's soul and understanding allowing him/her to express the more subtle, "inner" parts of music making.

And this is exactly where people perceive the real or imagined differences between pianos. An unsolvable problem unless simply appointing a specific person making the decision.

In same vein I have long come to the conclusion that only at higher, i.e. "mature levels" of playing do the rewards of a finer piano become more evident and certainly "rewarding".

Especially to the player, not always same to the 'listener'

Is it any wonder that our customer base these days is mostly comprised of adults? Including many who are seeking to treat themselves just one more time at a later stage in live.

When the soul and one's own ears have later matured enough to hear and *appreciate* the difference. At that point sound is all there is and the mutually inspiring relationship "from within" between player and instrument.

Ironically at that point it's not so much about the piano anymore but the *person* making the choice.

A fascinating and very rewarding experience to watch....

Norbert

Sirwormsalot, you may not have the picture, as yet, of the multiplier effect what you say has when you post on a website, like PianoWorld, which is very widely read--- not only by our own members, but also by people who are searching on the web.

What you say, if it is foolish, can make you look like a fool to quite a lot of people.

I am very glad that you love your own piano, and think that it is the best--- I think that's the way it's supposed to be. But really, if you want to offer an opinion about another marque, don't you believe it's fair to at least hear it in person, or at the very least, hear a good recording?

These researches can be surprising. Some models, which look wonderful when you read the spec sheet, may not sound or play so wonderfully when your own hands are on the keys, and your own eardrums (and sometimes the rest of your body, too) sense the whole effect of the vibrating parts. Then again, some models which may not look like much, or are of a make which is unfamiliar, can just blow you away. The Charles Walter models come to mind.

Lots of variables can confound the audition process, even when we're trying our best to form an honest opinion. Ineffective prep, the unfavorable acoustics of a giant piano showroom... even a raincloud blowing across the sun. Our lunch going down the wrong way. A particular finish that we don't care for. Overblown and hyped-up expectations that no real, in-person piano, could ever satisfy.

I have not played every piano model in the world; I don't know much about a lot of them. I can tell you, though, that playing a nicely-prepped SK-7 in a showroom gave me a particular thrill, not only through my ears, but in a lot of places in my body. My sinuses, my hands, the feet on the pedals, my scalp, and someplace in the middle of my body.

I didn't buy it. Partly, I was a little afraid to shuck out the additional 20 grand. Partly, I knew it wouldn't fit in my house. Partly, because I had already picked out an RX-5, which I loved, and which I knew good and well I would never outgrow in my lifetime. And, all those things were true... but it's been the one piano, of all those I have played in my lifetime, for which I've felt a lingering regret. And I kind of wish... that I'd been a little bolder. That I'd put a higher priority on having 18 inches more piano, and if the couch had to go to the curb, so be it.

Anyway, that is my opinion. And I thank you for sharing yours.