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Hi everybody,

i would like first of all to thank you all for the posts here. I enjoyed reading many threads, especially those
helping me now choosing a DP.

I am an adult beginner and had started a month ago learning.

Now i am planning to buy a DP. After many reviews and direct contact with many DP here my final candidates:

- KAWAI: CN 24 or ES100: I really like the sounds and actions. For me CN24(1000 EUR) is a little better, but the ES100is much cheaper (600 EUR here in Germany).
- YAMAHA YDP162 is ok but and comparable with the CN24.
- ROLAND: F-20 or F-120. Also good, but i am also impressed by the low price of the F-20 (600 E).

Since iam a beginner, all of these DP are good for me and i cannot really decide in a professionnal way.

I am planning to play daily betwenn 1h and 2 hours on it. Also my wife will play on it

So, does the quality of the key matters if a DP is so often used? Any ideas? Is it better to invest more money for the keys (Ivory Touch vs. Plastic)

I would really appreciate your recommendations.

Thanks in advance.

Prinz.

They're all good, although I would leave out the ES100 or the F-20. Those are pretty low end and will probably be less satisfying in the long run.

Which one did you and your wife like the best? I ask this based solely on instinct and where your heart is. That's the one you should get.

ok "money" speaking i was impressed by the F-20 or ES100, but it was clear that they will not "live" so long. But "heart" speaking i liked the F-120 and my wife the CN24. Since we are beginners, i don't know if those are good for daily use or not? Is your statement for the Es100 and F-20 (low end) based on the fact that they have plastic keys? Sorry for the many questions, but i don't want to buy a DP and regret the decision after maybe one year...

I say the F-20 and ES100 because those are the low end models. Actually the Roland F-120 is a discontinued model, but slightly higher end. The F-20 and F-120 both have the same action, however, and the action is the most important thing, next is sound. Ivory tops or wooden keys really don't matter. I'm thinking since they put the same action in their next generation low end model, that's probably not going to be the best. I have not played the Roland F-120/20 which has the Ivory Feel-G action, but I'm leery of Roland actions in the mid- to low-end for regular practice.

Also, it seems you have a mixture of stage/portable pianos and cabinet-style ones in there. How important is that to your purchase?

Also note that Kawai recently came out with the CN25, which means you'll probably be getting a pretty good price for the CN-24. I'm partial to Kawai actions.

The Yamaha has the GH action, which is their lowest end. I would pass on that as well.

edited to add: Is there some reason you aren't considering Casios in your search?

Oh thanks for your detailed answer.

Stage or cabinet style doesn't matter. I am lucky in that point because my wife has the solution for both solutions (to place them in the suitable room)

You are right CN24 is for 980 Euro in Sale here in Germany (good deal?)

YAMAHA GH Action: I tried the YDP162 but i am not so impressed (may be i don't habe the right feeling because i am a beginner?)

Is there some reason you aren't considering Casios in your search?--> When i want to buy a camera i go for Nikon or Canon--> The same logic for me for DP. Although many people said the Casios are pretty good? (I didn't have the chance to play on the Casios)

I have a Casio PX-5S, as can be seen in my signature, and I recommend it. Price to quality ratio of their pianos is very good, in my opinion. According to your initial list (which Morodiene is probably just commenting on, not ruling out Casios, just sticking to the pianos you your self had narrowed down to) you may want something with speakers, like Casio PX-850.

Regarding the Yamaha YDP162, the GH action is NOT Yamaha's lowest end. The GHS (Graded Hammer Standard) action, is their lightest action, GH, or Graded Hammer, heavier and GH2 heaviest. Yamaha has the GHS action in their low end models, GH in a bit better ones, and the GH2 in their best.

Casio, on the other hand, puts the same, considerably heavy action, in all their models.

Whatever you end up with, try before you buy!

IMHO (see below), the Casio's are competitive with (in quality and sound) -- and maybe better than -- other DP's in their price class. Don't ignore them because of the brand name.

If you can stretch your budget a bit, try the Roland F130R. IMHO it's better than the F-120 and much better than the F-20.

. Charles

PS -- bias -- I have a Casio PX-350. The key action is pretty good, more-or-less on par with the Yamaha GH action. Its built-in piano sounds are OK. I use it to drive Pianoteq (a software piano) -- better sounds, that way.

PPS -- for a comparison of the F130R and F120, try here:

http://azpianonews.blogspot.ca/2014...e-new-model-supernatural-best-price.html

Tim Praskins may be biased (it's a complicated issue), but his comparisons of DP's within a brand are probably trustworthy.

Hello Prinz, welcome to the forum.

To echo the advice already provided by others, I would recommend that you play-test as many pianos within your budget as possible, and purchase the instrument yourself and your wife enjoy playing the most.

If you intend to practise/play for 1~2 hours a day, I would suggest that you disregard the price tag, and simply opt for the best piano you can afford.

Best of luck!

Kind regards,
James
x

Hallo Prinz und wilkommen!

Synthetic ivory and plastic keytops are the same thing, the first have just a bit grippier surface, for when your fingers get a bit sweaty.

The price you get for the cn24 is a good one, since the new cn25 costs about 1250. There are some improvements on the 25, but i played both, and for 250 discount i could easily settle for the 24.

By the way, after a couple of months Kawai settled as my favourite piano in almost all price classes, by touch and tone. I tried out the ydp162 and f120 though, and found them good indeed: you will have to experiment a bit with your hands and ears.

Correcting myself, I meant to say Casio puts the same action in all their PX and or Privia models, not sure about the CDP120 and such models, or instruments that are rather classified as keyboards than digital pianos.

About the Yamaha YDP162, never tried that one, but the specifications are impressive, given the price. It has 128 polyphony and 2x20Watt speakers, though some don't like the bright sound of Yamaha DPs in general.

Hello Prinz,

on Kawai choices:
- Kawai CN25 is the successor product for CN24. Go for CN24 only if you get signigicant discount compared to CN25. In case you are in Europe, EUR 1000 could be a reasonable price for a CN24.
- Kawai ES100 is cheap as it has no cabinet, pedals etc. If you would like them anyway, think about Kawai KDP-90 / Kawai CN-14 as well. However if you are not interested in the cabinet and would prefer a portable one, ES100 could be a reasonable choice.
- Yamaha YDP162 is also a reasonable choice in the price range. As far as I read on the web and I also tried YDP162 out, Yamaha has slightly heavier key actions. Try out many brands, how much force you need to play from pianissimo to fortissimo...
- in case of Roland, I would consider F-130R more. F-20 I have tried, and I have decided to move on and spend some more. F-120 I was not trying because F-130R seemed to promise much more with a little price difference (prices may be not so comparable among different locations)
- I would also mention Casio PX-860 and AP-460 / or PX-850 and AP-850 if you are not interested in the hall simulation and get a significant discuount compared to the newer ones. Note that the sound processor is pretty different (there is resonance simulation) than the cheaper Casio Privia models
- I would also mention Casio PX-5S in case you are interested in a portable/stage piano without a cabinet.

Have a list of features with your priorities. You might also include warranty terms on the list. For new DPs you could find bundles or sets that come with bench and headphones at least (sometimes also lamp, USB stick, some music sheets for beginners etc.)
Go and try the interesting ones out. If you have a teacher in mind, ask her/him for advice as well.

First of all, many thanks for your feedbacks. Really appreciate it

First impression: I am surprised that many people have very good experience with CASIO. I think that was a mistake that i didn't even try it

@TheodorN: I will try the Casio PX-5S if i find it in the store (very big store qith various choices). GH vs GHS: That's new for me (you see i am a beginner:)) The sales person said to me you definetly play tooo hard when i played on the YDP162. I don't know why but i like when the keys are pretty heavy. My wife is mor likely the romantic person who plays soft (may be the in the future the style will change)

@Charles Cohen: F120-->820 EUR / F130R-->920 EUR
Casio PX350 is for 650 EUR for sale--> Interesting Price!

@Kawai James: The best DP you can afford--> I think this is relative. I just want to avoid that i make the mistake of buying an expensive DP with a low/moderate quality (in long term).
Can you please comment on this since your name is saying that you are maybe an expert of KAWAI : I liked the CN24. In your opinion would you recommend this? 950 EUR vs. 1250 EUR for the CN25 (i will try it as well).

@Bellicapelli: Danke schön. Nice to hear that you are also a fan of KAWAI. I wish i can develop that feeling in a couple of months and i hope that my first impression of KAWAI remains the same (will test various CASIOs).

PS: My wife liked more the YDP162...

@Jasper E. : In this test (PX850) http://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/casio-privia-px-850-test.html (in german) the expert (testperson) titled it: The price/performance champion: (+)excellent keys (-)"strange" piano sound--> May be is this what you mentioned regarding the better sound in the PX860?
Same test for AP450 http://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/casio-celviano-ap-450-test.html --> (+)Keys with three sensors+Ivory..etc (-) Pianosounds: slightly "artifical" final notes.
I will try both if available.
P.S. PX850 870 EUR / PX860 1000 EUR / AP460 1100 EUR / AP 450 850 EUR

Hello Prinz,



I believe the CN24 is well priced at 950 EUR, however the CN25 is the latest model, with an improved keyboard action, and some useful additional functions such as USB connectivity and an iPad control app among other things.

My general recommendation would be to play-test both the CN24 and CN25, along with the Yamaha YDP-162 and competing Casio models, and purchase the instrument you enjoy playing the most.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x

At those prices, I would look _very_ seriously at the Roland F130R. The Casio's are less expensive in North America -- for example, the PX-350 is $700 (US), The PX-860 is $1100 (US) and the F130R is $1300 (US).

But I forget -- the Euro used to be worth $1.50, and is now worth $1.10, I think.

Shopping suggestions:

. . . Buy a good pair of headphones before you start serious testing.

"Good" includes Sennheiser HD-280, or Sony MDR-7506, or something like that (or better) -- around $100. Use that for testing. (Choosing headphones is as personal as choosing DP's!)

Try one or two DP's that are more expensive than your budget (for example, a Roland DP90Se, or a high-end Kawai). That will educate your fingers and ears, about what a DP should feel like, and sound like. Or use an acoustic piano.

Then, try the DP's that are within your budget. If one stands out -- it feels better _to you_, and sounds better _to you_ -- you can buy it with a clear conscience.

The problem isn't choosing a _good_ DP -- everything on your list is OK. It's that there are so many, very competitive models on the market.

. Charles

Welcome

First on CASIO,


As far as I understand, the main cons is the quality of the non-piano tones?
However, for AP-450 there is also a comment on the artifical finale of the piano sounds...

My comment was more on Casio PX-860/PX-850/AP-460/AP-450/PX-650 against PX-760/PX-750/AP-260/AP-250/PX-350/all cheaper PX models. The difference is on simulating resonance, which is supported only in PX-860/PX-850/AP-460/AP-450/PX-650 and not in the others. This difference you can even experience on youtube videos, PX-860/PX-850/AP-460/AP-450/PX-650 simply have a richer imitation of acoustic piano sounds...
In PX-860 and AP-460 the hall simulation is a new feature, another way to control the sound.
Maybe Mike Martin could add some comments here? (Mike is the Casio rep around on the forum)

Now on Yamahas,


The major difference I experienced on the Yamaha digital pianos against anything else was that they have slightly heavier key action -- you need some more force to play the keys. Others usually have lighter key action -- all here discussed ones still in the expected range for pianos.
Key action is crucial for how you can play on long term, investigate this further. Try playing something that includes pianissimo and fortissimo on the YDP-162 and the other interesting ones as well, and ask your wife to do the same.

I wonder where playing too hard could come from:
-- strong fingers -- in this case Yamaha could be better for you
-- realizing the key action is heavy and overcompensating it -- in this case the other vendors could be better for you

on Kawai and Roland

In case of Roland F130R vs. F120 I would definitely go for the F-130R on this price difference. Improved key action is the major point here but as far as I remember there were also improvements in the sound engine as well.

My own comment on F130R is that I did not like the sound via its own speakers -- most likely due to the minimalist cabinet. RP401R which is in principle the same piano in a different cabinet I liked much more but it was pretty expensive for my budget. However if you are going to play with headphones mostly, the sound via own speakers is not an issue for you.

On Kawai CN24 vs CN25, let's also wait for answer from James -- here the price difference is significantly bigger so I would be pretty tempted.
In case I could have a CN24 here in Hungary with local warranty for the price you mentioned, I would have bought a CN24 instead of the KDP90 I have bought recently.

NOBODY has commented on how these darned things look . . I mean, there`s not a huge difference between expensive, cheap, Casio, Roland Yamaha or Kawai. . . .the racer`s edge, maybe.

Some play a bit better.

Some sound a bit better.

Some are a lot more expensive.

Some are just . . . .ugly!

If you bring the missus into this, it might be the easy way out . . . and you`ll have something good to look at.

The Kawai ES100 also has some add-ons that would add the cabinet looks and funcionalities. The HML-1 stand and the F-350 triple pedal, would add some aditional cost but imho it´s worthy.

About the key action of the ES100, I´m very happy with its keys. Good feedback and sensations. Other DPs I´ve tested hide some faulty play and make you sound better than you´re playing... not the case with the ES100. I´m a little heavy left handed and with the ES100 I´ve to control the weight on my left hand as I must do on my Yamaha U3S or any other acoustic piano. Also good sense of speed (something about keybeds that people not mention and I´ve noticed). In other keybeds (specially from Fatar) when I play I got the constant sensation of accelerating constantly from the keys... for example with Mozart´s K.545 Sonata 1st movement, when you arrive at the first semiquavers section (the scales going up and down), in most DPs I´ve played I tend to speed up and up and up on that section because of the feedback received from the keybed. That sensation never occurs to me on any acoustic piano and neither on my ES100. Oh, and the poliphony of 192 notes is huuuuge, no problem with any heavy pedalling passage, like the final parts of the Chopin´s "Grande Valse Brillante" Op.18 that has a long passage with pedalling that puts many DPs on its poliphony limits, even cutting notes... no problems so far with that 192 keys poliphony.

Affordable, portable and cabinet option, good specs... very good instrument to consider for beginners and not so beginners.

Best regards from Spain!

@Kawai James:

-->IPad Control is nice to have for me but interesting to know that you don't disregard the CN24. A real salesman would say buy the CN25. It has definetly more options and the CN24 is anyway too old and in some years it will be "antique" (just joking :))


-->For this purpose i am going to travel to Hamburg. Here in Hanover i didn't find Casio models.


--> Many Thanks. It helped me a lot.

@Charles Cohen:

--> You are right. EUR1 = $1,07. Interesting to know that the F130R is so expensive in North America. I will play/test it in Hamburg may be next week and i will comment on this.

--> Many thanks for the advice. I completely forgot about using headphones. When we tried the DPs the i was stressed because the salesman was following us all the time

@Jasper E.:

--> The testperson is saying that for both AP450 and PX850 the Pianosound is a little bit strange and artifical. Don't forget that this is a conclusion of an experienced piano player(may be i cannot find that difference from a real piano sound because i don't have so "developed" ears like him :))

MAYDAY MAYDAY Mike Martin
You gave me definitely the desire for testing the CASIOs


--> realizing the key action is heavy forced me to play hard.


James already comment on this. See top.
That's interesting. Thank you for the honest answer

@peterws:

-->haha... New point of view for me. For my wife may be not. She wanted to comment on some ugly DPs but may be she didn't do it because of the salesperson who was following us. I will ask here because it doesn't matter for me.

@Pedro Ruiz:

--> I excluded the ES100 from my list, although i liked the sounds. It doesn't matter for me stage or cabine. I have some concerns regarding the actions. Because it is low end of Kawai i read that is not appropriate for daily use (since we are two and myself will be playing/learning around 1h-2h) (was thinking about long term use, because i am planning to buy an other new DP not before 5 years)

Well, I guess it's a good job I'm not a salesman.

Seriously, the CN24 and CN25 are both very good digital pianos - I don't think you can go wrong with either instruments, however the CN25 is obviously the more desirable as it's the latest model.

I believe the equivalent Yamaha, Roland, and Casio instruments are also worth considering at this level. To be honest, provided you stick with an established, reputable brand, it's impossible to make a bad decision.

Cheers,
James
x

One more thought -- refining my comment on the heavier action at Yamaha,
In case you have a piano teacher, ask her or him. With a teacher it might be much quicker to get used to the heavier touch.
In case you plan to learn on your own, other brands seem to match you better for a while...

About the artificial final notes: I was trying to google translate the reviews from German to English... It could make sense to ask Casio (or Mike) if there was a significant improvement in this area. Otherwise, and anyway, you will need to try out on your own (and in case you have a piano teacher, maybe ask her/him -- it is not good if the teacher is going crazy due to those artificial sounds). You, your teacher and your family members will be annoyed or not annoyed...

And about the testperson... some people used to acoustic pianos might find all digital ones strange and artificial, especially on the entry level. I wonder if the comment is due to this case or anything more specific?
On forums I generally read PX-860 / AP-460 has very good sound in its price range...

Unfortunately PX-860 / AP-460 are not on sale in Hungary at all [ except for there is a Hungarian speaking, but Slovakian webshop offering AP-460 but you cannot try it out here... ] so I have no more experience than listening to youtube videos.