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Turandot,
Actually, to clarify, for whatever reason I thought the Estonias had amazing tone qualities in both the 5'4" and the 6'2", but if I were choose a smaller grand (and give up the bass) I'd go with the small Estonia. But of course, I haven't really compared this to anything in a comparable price range so I'm probably a little ignorant about other beautiful sounds to be had at that price--it was only because the Estonia and Brodmann were side by side that I decided to try them. And yes, another clarification: The bass on a piano is important for me not for the volume, but the actual colour at all dynamics, and my upright Bell is actually muffled with pillows between the back braces in order to tame the sound a bit. Without them the piano is very resonant, and much louder/ringy than I would like it to be. The reason for looking for grand is in fact to be able to play with more finesse (ie pp,ppp) when I want without being held up with the action or having to use the (I forget the name) "quiet pedal" which brings the hammers closer to the strings.
So, I do know that the grand will be potentially louder (and softer) but that "quality" of sound that I currently have is what I'd like to keep, or hopefully improve on, not sacrifice.
I wonder if I should let people know of the horrific experience I had today in a local piano store in my search to try as many quality pianos as I can...
And thanks again for your advice about not to be swayed by others opinions. Of course, if I take this advice, wouldn't I then be not taking it at the same time...? (humour attempt...)
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Originally posted by newguyonforum: I wonder if I should let people know of the horrific experience I had today in a local piano store in my search to try as many quality pianos as I can... Definitely share it: they are a lot of fun (we really eat these up) and it can be educational for other buyers and sellers alike. Please.
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And thanks again for your advice about not to be swayed by others opinions. Of course, if I take this advice, wouldn't I then be not taking it at the same time...? (humour attempt...) I think that's not such a conundrum really. Here's an example.... I say to you: "Pay no attention to anyone's opinion but your own". If you follow my advice or don't follow it, the result will be the same.
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Newguy I'm enjoying hearing about your dillemmas and second thoughts - it's always more entertaining when someone else is doing the suffering. I think Turandot's point about the sound in the smaller spaces of your home is a very good one. It is a bit of a curiosity to me that you talk on one hand about the particularly strong bass section of your Bell, and want to replicate just that, but at the same time confess that you were stuffing pillows behind the piano to tone it down. Don't you wish sometimes you could "preview" pianos in your home environment to see what they would sound like there? I guess if you are willing to pay the moving fee to send a piano back and the store has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, you can try out as many as you like!
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Ok, for those that may think this is interesting:
Out of respect to this business it shall remain nameless, but I hope to God that it goes under soon or drastically changes its way of doing business.
After reading Larry Fines book again last night, and upon the advice of a few different people on and off the forum I decided that what I needed to do was to play as many pianos that I could find that would be of interest to me, and to also play those that may be out of my price range.
So, having lived in the same city for the last 10 years, but not having shopped for a piano here in the last 9 I decided to look in the yellow pages for local piano shops to see which ones I could visit on my way home from work.
Of all the stores that I knew about before (about 5 in the city) only 2 were left (there are a number in adjacent cities though), and one did not have an address, but only a phone number. Yes, very sad, I know, and apparently indicative of many other cities as well.
In any case, I decided to visit the remaining piano shop that had an address. I really wish I hadn't though.
The minute I walked in I knew that I ought to have just walked out again, but somehow felt compelled to at least stay a few minutes out of respect to try some of the pianos.
The owner was very nice. That wasn't the problem. The amount of pianos available was apparently quite large. I say apparently because I only played probably 20 notes in total on four instruments before I knew that this was a bad place. A very bad place.
Yes, I know I'll never be a good suspense writer. Stop complaining and read on if you must.
What made this a terrible place was that, like I said, the owner was nice, and even offered me some free advice about why I should stay away from Chinese pianos, why Kawai and Yamaha are actually the same piano (and why I really should then choose Yamaha if I understood they are the same...) ???, and also stated they were a piano technician. It was this last statement, probably meant to instill confidence in me, that shocked and then really disappointed me when I asked about which pianos had been prepped in the showroom and were ready to play.
I had, before talking to the owner, played a total of 10 notes on 3 different pianos. All of them were completely out of tune, and had the tonal quality of a piano that had been completely trashed. In those 10 notes, I don't recall one unison in tune, nor any single note that didn't have at least one discordant string. Lids and fall boards were stuck on all three, and most had at least two or three warped keys. I assumed they were used. Well used? Abused?
Anyways, trying to keep an open mind I thought perhaps it was some freakish luck of the draw that I chose to play the three worst pianos in the store. Thus the question I posed to him:
Which piano have you recently worked on that would be best representative of your regulation/tunings that you do to your pianos?
I was shown a bigger Kawai that I had previously missed playing. He said it was tuned and regulated the week before. Long story short: What the f***?
It was as bad as, if not WORSE than the others!
At that point I didn't know what to do or say, so I punched him and took his wallet. Ok, just kidding. But I did feel so sorry for him, and all of his past, present and possibly future customers.
What made me really sad though was that there are innumerable people in this city that have probably bought, rented, or played on these pianos, most probably being kids, and most likely have the impression that these utter pieces of junk that were in this shop were representative of what a piano is, and that this owner is providing a good service to the community.
Anything that he said to me after playing the piano just made less and less sense given that I couldn't take anything he said about what I should be looking for in a piano, whatnot.
I left the store and quickly sought shelter in this forum.
The end.
Still seaching for a piano...
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Birchy,
No, it's not the volume of the bass, but the richness of the tone. The pillows take care of the extra volume but don't mask the quality of that sound. And just for arguments sake, let's say the pillows did tamp down the bass resonance; that would make the Bell that much more astounding, no? If the bass in a 6' grand sounds inferior to a pillow-stuffed 100 year old instrument, what does that suggest? Was the bass quality something that you really were looking for in a piano before you bought it? Like I said, the Steigerman Premiums were appealing to me, and I could see why many people may like them, but for whatever reason I couldn't see past the bass dilemma.
Oh, and I have found superior bass in a 7' new Baldwin. I actually almost preferred it to a 9' Fazioli that I also tried. One can dream, no? But in the case of the Fazioli, I wonder what it would sound like if there were similar sized pianos in the showroom for comparison?
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Originally posted by turandot: [QUOTE] I wouldn't be that concerned about the lack of a thundering bass. Most pianos when placed in your home have a bigger bass than was apparent in a large showroom. I'd be more concerned with the action's ability to give you what you want from your touch.....especially the ability to play quietly without effort. Many shoppers are quite surprised by the power residing in their chosen piano when it arrives home. In many cases they immediately look for ways to tone it down. I can't ever remember reading about a new piano owner who felt a need to ratchet up the power once the piano was in the home environment. If the action can give you control over the full dynamic range, you'll appreciate that in the long run more than the quick exhiliration of a big bass. All my experience supports these remarks one hundred per cent.
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Newguy, thanks for clarifying that it is not just volume but tone of which you speak. There does seem to be a difference in tone between pianos of the same make and model, which complicates things further. I may not be as much of a bassaholic as you. I did notice a big difference in the lower register qualities of the 5'10" (178) vs. the 5'4" (168?). I sympathize with your frustration with lousy preparation in some shops. I can't understand how some dealers expect customers to pay big dollars on instruments into which the dealer has put minimal effort. Is it because the individual involved actually has no clue as to what they are aiming for, or is it because they are just lazy? Not sure. On the other hand, when it comes to demands on quality you're the kind of guy who has passed on a piano you say you prefer to a 9' Fazioli. Now that is a fussy customer!!!
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newguy,
I also recently had an experience like this. My wife has violin lesson at a local music shop. She arrived early and decided to look at the pianos. She saw they were having a sale on Kawai including an RX-3 which was being sold for half the list price. That got me into the store to try it. What a lousy experience. None of the pianos I tried was in tune. Nothing like an out-of-tune piano to throw cold water on enthusiasm. We tried another store and had a much better experience.
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ya, it can be pretty ugly. I can guarantee that I'll never be back to that place.
One thing that did occur to me, though, was that the particular place I went to was more (according to the owner) into renting the pianos, rather than selling them, and this was to apparently explain the rough condition of them. Either way I don't buy it.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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NewGuy: if you are still interested in a Kawai, check the Rick Jones Pianos website. Browse the Grand Piano Gallery and scroll down to:
#20G, a 1983 Kawai Model KG-7D, 7' 4" grand.
Rick Jones backs his pianos with a 10-year warranty, and (unless I am mistaken) he will ship to Canada at a reasonable rate. If that KG-7D is little used, as Rick says, then you are getting a good deal: $17,598 is within your budget, and for one of the better pianos Kawai ever made.
I say this because you expressed some interest in a Kawai, but I must add that I think a Kawai would be wrong for you.
I am going to step aside for a moment and stop addressing you as if you were a stranger on the Internet. Instead, I am going to write as if you were my friend or brother--i.e., I am going to be frank, and I will try to say things that will truly help you be happiest in the long run.
It stands out among your posts, NewGuy, that you are highly demanding about how a piano sounds in the showroom. Make certain, however, that you do not slip into becoming one of those customers who is far too demanding and shoots himself in the foot. Let me explain what I mean.
Remember that any piano in your price range will sound larger at home than in the shop, simply because of the smaller space. More importantly, a piano is made mostly of wood, so it will change substantially during the first year as it adjusts to the climatic conditions of your home. If your piano resides away from direct sunlight or heat registers, with its humidity tempered with a DampChaser, and etc., then the first-year changes will be improvements. With a new or newly restrung piano, the changes will be greater.
A piano action has many moving parts, and they are always tighter when they are new and loosen up progressively as the piano is played. The action of a piano that is played often--as yours will be--changes steadily throughout its life.
A new piano with new strings, or a newly restrung rebuild, will change substantially during the first year in your home because the strings stretch and go out of tune several times before they start settling down. A new or newly restrung piano is physically incapable of sounding as good the day the piano is delivered as it will sound after it has been properly cared for in your home for 12-15 months. (I have owned so many pianos in my lifetime that I have witnessed this happen more times than I care to admit.)
For someone like you, The Highly Demanding Customer, it will be especially important to tune the piano every three months during its first 12 to 15 months in your home: that will help the piano reach its potential, and give you the results you desire.
Remember also that not all piano tuners are equal. Piano tuning is part science and part art, and some tuners produce substantially better results than others. This is so important that the best thing you can do to help your piano reach its highest potential is find a concert-level tuner and pay him to tune your piano consistently. He will charge more for his services, but you are precisely the kind of demanding customer who will appreciate the beautiful results.
Consider this: my Steinway A rebuild did sound gorgeous when I first brought it home, but I knew it would sound better as the months passed. Recently it had its 9-month tuning from the best piano tuner I have met, and it now sounds substantially better than it did when I first brought it home. Furthermore, its action has loosened up as it has been played often by my family members and friends and some deliverymen and my housekeeper's sons and ... oh, never mind--when you own a Steinway, mysteriously everyone wants to play it. The point is that my piano was a pleasure the day it was delivered, but it is substantially better now, and it will continue to change as the months go by.
None of this should cause worry. A large part of the pleasure of owning a piano is anticipating and watching and enjoying its changes. When you play more often, and your ear improves, you begin to notice that any piano undergoes slight changes even during a single day: it may sound a little different in the evening than it did in the morning. This is a large part of the charm of owning a musical instrument made primarily of wood. I am excited about how my Steinway has improved, and I am looking forward to seeing just how far it can go.
I expected improvement because I knew and trusted the knowledge and skill of people who know much more about pianos than I ever will. They told me that, as a result of trial and error, taking into account the experience of pianists and tuners and manufacturers throughout the world, certain types of piano designs, and certain components, have consistently produced great results that please a great many of the most demanding pianists throughout the world. That is the best information you can get for which piano and components to choose.
Nevertheless, if you buy a new piano, or you purchase or commission a comprehensive rebuild (clearly the best option for The Demanding Advanced Pianist On A Budget), then you will not hear the full potential of the piano in the showroom. Nor will you hear it the first day you get that piano home. Nor the first month. Nor the second.
As you complain about the sorry state of pianos in different shops--and of course they should be tuned--remember that it costs real money for a dealer to regulate and voice the pianos in his shop. The costs will come right off the profit; many of those pianos will sit unplayed and unsold for months or years; and, worst of all, regulation and voicing of the same piano should be quite different depending on the acoustical characteristics of the room where the piano is staying and the personal tastes of the piano's owner. For example, a bright voicing that makes the piano sound great in a large piano showroom might make the piano sound shrill and ear-piercing when it arrives in the smaller home of the new owner, and the voicing will need to be re-done. Not to mention good voicing should take into account your personal tastes as owner, and balance that against what the technician considers the greatest potential of a particular piano in a particular room where it is going to live and breathe and change throughout its lifetime.
The room at home can change as well. Some owners go ballistic about how their piano suddenly sounds terrible, and then the technician rushes to their home and discovers that the piano which had been voiced for a room with thick carpeting is now resting on the brand-new, solid wood floor. That is a huge change and requires adjustment for the piano, yet some owners get upset because they do not take such things into account.
Add to this that most piano buyers cannot tell the difference between an unregulated or regulated piano, and you see it would be financially self-destructive for a dealer to regulate and voice every piano in his shop--and then shell out more to adjust the same pianos to make them suitable for each particular owner's home and personal tastes. Pianos have low enough profit margins already, and a piano dealer cannot reasonably be asked to spend so much money for something that most of his customers will not even notice.
As you consider different brands and their various known strengths and weaknesses, consider this also: because a piano is made primarily of wood, each particular piano has its own characteristics. Two brand-new Hamburg Steinway grands, one completed right after the other, will both be great pianos. Yet the two will differ from each other much more than, say, two Toyota Avalons rolling off the same assembly line. Many piano buyers assume that the two Steinways should be nearly as similar as two Avalons. That expectation cannot be met because wood is a natural product and cannot be manufactured as uniformly as steel.
Again, no cause for worry; it is part of the charm of owning a piano. Your particular piano will have a certain combination of qualities that make it, to some degree, unique. Enjoy it; revel in it.
Since you are a music teacher, let me ask you to remember those days long ago when you were a kid and you first started travelling to different piano competitions. Every different place you went, you had to play a different piano. Most were Steinways, but that did not mean they had the same characteristics. Probably at first you were taken aback, as most kids are, when you discovered that the particular measures from that Chopin piece--you know, the ones you practiced a zillion times because they sounded cool on your piano teacher's Steinway--are simply not going to sound as good on the piano being used in the competition. That was a real bite.
Yet you learned how to deal with it: you found that the competition piano had other strengths. It produced better sound in certain passages than the Steinway at your teacher's studio; it brought out new possibilities in some passages that you had never noticed before.
This was repeated at other venues, with other pianos, until eventually you learned how to adjust your playing to accomodate the strengths and weaknesses of many different pianos at many different venues. You enjoyed how this made you a more sensitive and capable player. Eventually you discovered that changing pianos was a large part of the fun of the competitions. You began to enjoy playing many different pianos; and eventually your ear progressed and you noticed that no piano sounds or feels quite the same every day anyway.
So think of it this way: when you get a new piano, it is like traveling to a different venue. You should expect your new piano to have a different set of strengths and weaknesses compared to your previous piano. Your new grand may not have the familiar depth and tone of the bass section on your Bell, but it may have a more complex, richer-sounding bass; and its bass probably will complement the rest of the keyboard so beautifully that you may even conclude that your old Bell sounded so strong in the bass section because the rest of its keyboard was a little weak.
In any case, you will adjust your playing for your new piano, just as you adjusted your playing at different venues when you were a kid in competition. This is no cause for concern. Quite the contrary, it is a charm and an adventure.
So what does all this imply for a Highly Demanding Advanced Pianist like yourself? Well, of course you should play the piano before you buy it, and you should have a good feeling about its basic touch and tone. Yet you also should be aware that, if the piano is new, or if it has recently been restrung, then you will NOT be playing it at its greatest potential until it has been in your home for at least a year. That piano will be like a woman you have met for the first time: you should have a good feeling about her, and it is a good sign if you think she is the kind of girl with whom you can fall in love for a lifetime, but keep in mind that you do not really know her yet, and, besides, she will change throughout her lifetime, and so will you, as you both keep getting to know one another. A great piano will improve your touch and sensitivity and open new musical vistas that are closed to you the first time you play it; that is a big reason why you shell out the dough for a great piano, why you want something better than what you have. Instead of demanding absolute perfection before putting your money down--which has the potential to drive you and many unfortunate dealers out of your minds--you might instead look for a piano that, first, has a kind of basic feel and tone that you like, and, second, has a design and components that have been proven through long experience to produce outstanding results.
Yes, this means that for someone like you, The Highly Demanding Advanced Player On A Budget, buying a piano is going to require a certain amount of trust. You will have to trust that a great design and high-quality components will produce even better results after the piano has been properly cared for in your home for a year or two. Sorry, my friend, but there is no way around this. You must trust.
Maybe you are thinking that you can avoid trust by finding a piano that sounds and feels exactly right in the showroom. I suppose such luck can and does happen to some people, especially if they are beginners or intermediate players or even advanced players who either do not notice or are not bothered by relatively subtle changes in tone and touch and etc. (I also hear that some of them are shocked to discover that the piano feels and sounds different once they get it home. Some accuse the dealer of not delivering the right piano, and only the serial number will calm them down.) So the incredible luck of finding a piano that "sounds perfect to me" both in the shop and at home, which less sensitive or less demanding ears can experience, will rarely occur for someone like you, NewGuy, whose ear has become attuned to subtle differences in sound quality and tone, and who cares enough about music to worry about subtle changes in the touch and feel. It would be great if you did find something that met your very high demands both in the shop and when you got it home, but I doubt it will ever happen for you--unless you change your ways and become The Slightly Less Demanding Advanced Pianist On A Budget.
Maybe if you had the dough for a six-figure Football-Field-Sized Fazioli or Bosie Empire Imperial Massive Land-Your-Jet-On-Its-Lid Moneysucker ... well, that is not an option for The Man On A Budget. Besides, you already rejected a 9-foot Fazioli concert grand because it had, to your ears, inadequate bass. That is a bit like rejecting Buckingham Palace for having inadequate space. If you had brought home that Fazioli and had it tuned and voiced, and perhaps let its strings settle for a year, you may have discovered that its bass was more than adequate to bring tears of joy to your eyes.
Judging from your remarks, I would say that you are not going to be happy with most of the pianos that are available for under 20K. You are the sort of demanding buyer who will be happy only after he has had an extremely good piano, with great components, in his home for at least a year, and has had it regularly tuned by a great technician.
Yes, I am saying that even after you shell out the dough for a Steinway rebuild, which is somewhat more than your current budget allows, then you will worry about it when you get it home; and you will continue to worry for several months, because, although it will be excellent, it will not be perfect, and it will not yet have reached its potential.
I believe, however, that if you shell out the dough for a Steinway rebuild, or for another piano with a similar caliber of design and high-quality components, and stifle your doubts for about a year, then finally, in the end, you will enjoy a great piano that exceeds your high expectations. It is fabulous to play the same piano every day IF it is capable of painting a zillion different colors and keeps surprising you with all the new things you can achieve with it. A great piano can keep you improving happily for decades, and, judging by your posts, that is the sort of thing you want--what you really want, deep down, when you are thinking at your best.
On one post, you asked what you SHOULD want. Well, the answer is a Steinway rebuild with great components, or another piano with a similar caliber of design and high-quality components. Nothing less is likely to meet the requirements of a Highly Demanding Advanced Pianist On A Budget Who Rejects Nine Foot Faziolis For Their Inadequate Bass.
If you buy a cheapo piano, you are going to wind up with more frustrations, and you will start looking for another piano, probably before it has been in your home for a month. That kind of procedure is astronomically expensive and galactically frustrating. It will leave you making plans to rob Fort Knox while you are taking double Vallium. You are going to shell out a lot more money for a series of compromises than you will if you just start right away with a great piano, such as a Steinway rebuild or something of similar caliber. You will be happier, too--and for many more years.
The purpose of your piano is to make you happy. It is a mistake to shell out substantial bucks for a compromise piano that is likely to leave you frustrated. You are lucky enough to have been bitten by the music bug, so you are unlikely to find contentment and happiness in anything less than Real Quality.
So find a reputable rebuilder with a high-caliber piano with high-quality components. Find a concert-level tuner. Then ask them both to make you very happy. Then shut up and do what they say. Refrain from pestering them with doubts and worries. One day, perhaps in the ninth or twelfth or fifteenth month of ownership, a great tuner will visit your home and tune your piano. Then he will play it for you, and, unless you have a heart of stone, tears of joy will fill your eyes, and you will live happily ever after. The End.
So there you have it. That is what I would say if you were my brother or friend, and I wanted you to be truly happy in the long run. Since you are a stranger on the Net, however, then I must beg forgiveness for being frank. My apologies, and good luck whatever you choose to do.
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Newguy,
I started writing a response yesterday when my browser shut down. Oh, well, try try again...
I had the same dilemma a few years ago. I finally bought a piano in 2000, but had been looking on-and-off for about eight years. Like you, my target was "nothing over $20K." As a finicky performer, I realized my options would probably be rebuilt quality instruments. Additionally I don't like small grands so I was committed to getting a grand piano in the 7' range. (All this shows you why it took me eight years!)
I am fortunate enough to live in the NYC area which has an active piano market. Being an active player, I have gotten to know some respected local technicians, and so had their expertise to draw upon when seeking advice about rebuilders, basic instrument qualities, etc.
I got some good advice via the internet as well, but considered my local techs my main source for guidance.
Many working pianists I know have been in your (or our) position. They find good used instruments through great patience and sheer luck. Estate sales. Recording studios going out of business. Sellers who must sacrifice. Colleges getting rid of older piano stock. I don't know many who have bought their pianos new or newly-rebuilt.
Among the few new instruments I considered in the late 90's, I really liked the Petrof Model II pianos (ca. 8 feet). I thought they had Petrof's best scale design and they could be (sometimes) had in the $20K range at that time. I didn't know the Asian builders except for Yamaha/Kawai and really preferred finding a solid American instrument.
Anyway, I bought a vintage Mason & Hamlin concert grand and I like it a lot. It came from a private seller and had been rebuilt by a respected outfit in NYC in the 1980s (Camilleri). I had some action work done, and if I hadn't opted to refinish the case, I'd have paid under $20K total. It's not perfect, but it's always satisfying. I'll probably invest in new hammers, maybe even a new action soon. But I can get my work done with it as it is.
Good luck to you!
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Prospero - that was quite an excellent post. It got a little rough, but you shot from the hip and gave some very good advice. I totally agree with your comments about the maturation of a new or totally re-built piano.
One of the things that keeps coming up in this thread, and others, is the difference in sound that an instrument displays in a home rather than a showroom.
One of the things that I do is a different way of "auditioning" a piano.
In all the dealerships that I frequent, the grand lids are always propped to full peg. That is how I first play the piano. Then I fold the music desk down and play the same composition. Next, I remove the desk completely, and yes the Brahms returns.
I return the desk and drop the lid to half-peg and do the same process.
And, again with the lid down. Yep, the same Brahms.
What I have found is that, with the lid, down but not closed, and and music desk removed, the piano will sound the closest to how it will sound in a home with the lid fully up and the music rack up with music on it. Most people, including me, tend to play heavy in a large room. With the lid down and the rack removed, you can actually hear the piano's volume and eveness of scale and voicing. This also gives you a chance to hear the tonal quality of the instrument without trying to fill the total space of the showroom. You can hear the difference in brightness and have a better sense of the tambre of the instrument. But still, it will be louder at home.
I find that the finest of instruments only decrease in volume of sound, as the lid is lowered, and do not have a change of tonal quality or complexity.
A fine, mid-sized grand (5'-7" to 6'-2") can have a wonderful bass and beautiful balance throughout the registers. There are a number of manufacturers or restorers who can achieve this. There are builders and restorers who produce garbage.
Newguyonforum, you can find a good piano in your price range. If you can break the 20K line, and stick at around 25K, you will find that you are in a different world. I don't know why that seems to make the difference, but to my ear, that is when you move to the next level of quality and tonal sophistication.
Two affordable instruments that I have recently played are the Pramberger Platinum series and the Kemble. I have heard great things about Bohemia, but have not yet played one. If you like the broad-shouldered, "american" sound, and from what you said I think that may be where your ear is leading you, try to get your fingers on a Charles Walter. I have a student with one that is now two years old. It has blossomed into a truly fine piano. At first it seemed to be hiding tonally and a bit "uptight", but damn, that piano grew up.
Good luck in your search and I'm sure you will find what 'sounds right' to you.
Marty in Minnesota
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Holy smokes, Prospero! You have a lot of important things to say about someone in my position. It makes for a lot of sense, but I'm thinking that perhaps I've been misunderstood a bit.
To be quite frank, I'm not sure that I'm as picky as I may appear in print. Just to clarify one small point, I really did enjoy the 9' Fazioli, (and especially the bass) but what was interesting to me was that I ALSO enjoyed the Baldwin's (7') bass as well, and to think of the price difference of the two it would seem absurd to pay 200k for something that I could get for 40k. But of course in any case I can't afford either. I was saying, however, that the Baldwin's bass was the only one so far (although now I've since played other pianos 7'+) that were better than the Bell.
And you know, you are right about the bass on the Bell, I believe it may be so impressive because the voicing in the G4 to C5 section is not consistently satisfying.
So, you are also very clear about saying that I should be not buying something cheap (read Chinese/Indonesian, I believe) but rather to focus my search on a quality, established brand such as S&S.
I liked Your Use of Capital Letters in describing Me, too. Somewhat A A Milne of You. But in all seriousness, thanks again, I truly do appreciate it.
And Joe, thank you for your response. This is a real world example that I can relate to. I know I won't find a perfect piano, but one that will do, and be satisfying as I need it to be. But in response to both you and Prospero, its getting difficult to hear from each dealer that I've visited that rebuilds only welcome trouble. I still need to visit a few other rebuilders in the area to see if I can go that route, because if not, then I will basically (according to Prospero, at least) be in the position of not being able to purchase a piano that will make me happy.
And finally, thank you Marty, on the other side of the equation you are of the mind that a new piano under 20k will be satisfying. Since I've yet to see enough rebuilts around here, and have only been auditioning new Chinese, Korean, and Japanese models I don't have at this time a fair comparison between the used and new market. I'm still waiting for some rebuilders to send me messages saying come try this, or that, but no one has come forward with any ready merchandise.
And your comments about playing with the lid down is an important one. I have put the lids down on every piano that I was interested in potentially buying, because I'm not (contrary to how I'm portraying myself here) lusting after huge sound, nor am I looking for huge bass, but I'm looking for a quality of sound that does not come from volume but from, um, er, complexity? purity? Maybe that's what I haven't yet been able to put my finger on, but I do know the sound when I here it. A 7' Sauter had it today, as did a 6'3" Estonia, both unfortunately out of my price range at this time.
I'm going to hunt around to see about the Pramberger and Kemble that you are talking about, as well as the Bohemia, although I'm sure we have dealers around here of those brands.
So thanks again everyone. I'm thinking of starting a new thread about "Why shouldn't I buy a Chinese Grand piano?" to see if anyone else that has not bothered to follow this thread may be provoked into answering.
I'm enjoying the search, loving the advice, and am very thankful that I've found this forum.
Thanks again everyone!
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Originally posted by newguyonforum: ... in response to both you and Prospero, its getting difficult to hear from each dealer that I've visited that rebuilds only welcome trouble. Let me take a wild guess: you have heard this from dealers who will lose you as a customer if you opt for a great rebuild.
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Yes, newguy, you will find it.
I have a neighbor who wanted a new piano for his daughter who is now ten. She had been playing on an electronic keyboard and her parents thought that she should have a "real" piano. She is not my student but she loved to come over to practice on a real piano.
We went on a shopping trip.
They only wanted to spend 7K on an instrument and assumed that it would be a vertical. Well, we found a Story & Clark grand that was a good instrument. Yea, it's only a Chinese stencil, but it was a decent piano and had a good action for her. It has a very decent tone.
She is thrilled and her parents like the way it looks in their home. Well heck, if she keeps playing and progressing, they will need to upgrade in about four years. Not a bad investment in your child.
Getting back to you, you are correct in assessing the substance of the tonal quality of a piano. Some pianos dig deep and others play on the surface. I prefer a piano where I can dig deep and it is totally different than playing the surface. Different in color.
A fine instrument has all levels of tonal color.
My piano barks at me when I'm slamming octaves in the lower bass. That same bass can be so clear and round in the Bach WTC or a Mozart sonata. The top can be ringing, or, of bell like quality. Then again, it can thunder with the power of big chords. My tech/tuner knows how and what I play and keeps my piano under my fingers.
I will answer the private emails here. The Brahms that I use to audition any piano is the 2nd. concerto. I was surprised that the Story and Clark could handle it. The Perzina and others couldn't provide a responsive playing. They also sounded awful.
Newguy, you can find a piano. It just takes some effort. Don't think, because of this forum, that people will be marketing to you. There is one of the best rebuilders on our continent in your area.
Go play some pianos.
Marty in Minnesota
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Would you rather drive a brand new pretty Hundai or an older classy Mercedes or BMW or Lexus? If you have it checked out by your tech, how can you go wrong? Its a question of which appeals to you.... brand new or classy and aged. I bought a 1950's Baldwin SF10 and have never ever been sorry. It was slightly less than a new Petrof or Estonia, and I feel I got way more piano to play. Whichever you think suits you best.
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Well, I wonder about the Hyundai analogy as to whether that is true or not, and that is kind of what I am trying to figure out. Some suggest that the Chinese pianos are undervalued right now, indicating that they may be comparable to the Japanese (Kawai?) or Koreans. I'd really like to know if that is true, or just speculation.
The other day I got talking to a tech about why the higher grade pianos (25k range and up) and from anywhere but Indonesia and China are superior to the cheaper ones, and what makes the cheaper ones a bad buy. At first he couldn't give me a clear answer about how the cheaper ones were cheaper except to say that when he tunes them he could feel it in the tuning pins. I'm not sure this made sense to me other than perhaps identifying that one pin block and pins were better than another, so I kept pressing to ask why should one now avoid these cheaper pianos. I was pressing because I was showing interest in buying a higher price piano and really wanted to know what the difference was (this was in a showroom). He then mentioned that the damper system in the Chinese grands were not heavy enough to do the job properly and as a result ringing and such would be present and hard to correct. His believe was that the individual dampers (not the felt, but the wood) were to light to sit on the strings. I asked him how old were these pianos and he estimated around 4 to 5 years. Nothing else came to mind for him about specific problems. So, what it came down to (in his view at this point in the conversation) was that the higher priced pianos were delivered in better shape: ie less prep work was needed to make them play well (and I had to discount his experience with the damper system since this was on another generation of piano, not the current ones) At this point in the conversation this particular tech was suggesting that it would be a bad decision to buy a chinese piano and said that there was no telling how long it would last. Now, I've heard that before, but still have not had a satisfactory response as to why anyone believes the newer Chinese pianos will not last long.
I understand the idea about different materials, or different grades of materials, being used that may look the same as others, such as full Renner action as opposed to Renner style, etc, but if everything seems to be playing well and looking right, how is the view that these pianos having no track record imply that they will fall apart?
So, from that point he was suggesting that woods can expand, contract, whatnot, and the kiln process and selection of woods would determine the pianos ability to last. At that, I pointed out that perhaps the new Chinese pianos that have the high quality parts (or higher, at least) comparable to the more expensive ones should last the same then...?
He offered that (and I'm not sure exactly how this came out) the biggest thing to affect any piano is humidity, and if that is controlled, then future problems would be minimized for all pianos. At this point he was even saying that the Chinese pianos (or at least the upper end ones) would be a good investment, and would last as long as other more expensive ones.
Oh, I remember how he came to that: I said that in my situation, I may not be in the position to pay more than 10-15k for a new piano, and if I could not find one in that price range that I could depend on, then I would not be able to buy anything new.
So, I know I gave him every chance in the world to promote the Chinese pianos (which this store sold, of course), and so perhaps the information gleaned from him should be taken as such, but it does get me wondering about why there still persists such a bias against these instruments.
I've played over 15 different grands and probably 5 or 6 uprights and have found most to be pretty good, and some to be quite good. I have yet to say anything more positive about any used piano that I've seen. Part of the trouble is is that the used pianos I've seen have been in the same stores (for the most part) as the new ones, and I suspect that not a lot of work has gone into making them into better instruments.
I still am looking to find some Baldwins around here. I've played a 1980s 6'9" Kawai (G something?) in a dealers showroom which I liked, but have reservations about the action and some thudding and clicking notes (A1 and Bb1) that had not been tended to, which made me wonder about how could I (if I were to really like this piano) go about finding an independent tech to come and see if the piano can be "enhanced/fixed?" and to what extent that would cost.
How does one find a good independent tech? It seems that they would all have an interest in you buying a used instrument in order for them to be able to service it, no? I'm not trying to be paranoid, but also wouldn't most techs also work for other piano businesses as well, and be more inclined to steer you towards something that they have worked on in another place (or there own?), if they couldn't see the potential of you getting this particular piano serviced by them? In either case it seems that for buying a used piano, unless you were to find a tech that had recommendations from happy piano purchasers and were able to check these references, then you could only otherwise go on their word.
Maybe the dealers have gotten to me...
Argh
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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Still asking for input on Chinese grands? You must really like them. Anyway, I noticed yet another piano that fits your needs. This is a vintage Steinway model A grand. One of the big boys at 6'2". Vintage Model A Steinways are especially prized. More than a few musicians consider a vintage Steinway A rebuild to be the best piano for the home. (Many people do not want a Steinway B or C or D in their home because they do not live in a mansion and they prefer to retain their hearing.) The price for that Steinway model A grand within your budget--a very reasonable 19K--because it was rebuilt ten years ago (barely a tick of the clock for a piano of this caliber) and the action was not replaced, just regulated, apparently because it is in good shape. At 19K for a vintage Steinway A, you can take a great piano home, and, if the action is not exactly perfect for your tastes after regulating, then you can start saving to have a new action installed in a couple of years. At that point, with a new action installed and regulated to your tastes, you can finally stop looking for a better piano for your home, because there will be no such thing. You can watch several quality videos of the 19K model "A" Steinway being played by scrolling down on to its button on this website: http://www.countrypiano.com/showroom.html Sounds pretty good, doesn't it? I bet it sounds a lot better in person, if it is like the other Country Piano grands that I have played in years past. (I did not purchase my own rebuild at Country, but not because I did not like them; that is a long and boring and irrelevant story.) Elsewhere on that website you can see multiple videos of all their already-rebuilt Steinways. Perhaps by now all those new piano dealers have you thinking that Country Piano has been in the business of selling rebuilt Steinways for the past 36 years because rebuilds "welcome trouble," as you reported. I wonder how you can reconcile those two alleged facts. If for some reason you do not like Country Piano, again you have already been given the contact information for rebuilders in your area with excellent reputations. One wonders how they have stayed in business so long when rebuilds "welcome trouble." There are other rebuilders who will also deliver to Canada for you. Here is yet another outstanding, highly reputable rebuilder who would happily ship to your area: http://www.classicpianos.com/ That particular dealer, in Signal Hill, CA, has many especially remarkable pianos, in my opinion. For example, scroll down his inventory on his website, and you will see a solid gold Steinway rebuild for sale at a million dollars. You can buy that one, if your inheritance happens to turn out larger than you thought, and if Elton John changes his mind about it. In that piano shop you can see photographs of an inlaid Steinway D being played for a concert at Segerstrom Hall in Orange County. It is remarkable that arguably the best orchestra on the West Coast performed with one of his rebuilt Steinways on their stage, given that rebuilds "welcome trouble." Maybe you can explain that reasonably; I cannot. In my opinion, the pianos that I have seen at European Pianocraft blow away anything that I have seen at any other rebuilder or new piano dealer. You can do no better. Perhaps you can explain why there are so many highly reputable rebuilders across the country, many of them in business for decades, when rebuilds "welcome trouble." I cannot. If you use the search function, you can seach the Piano World threads and find a formidable number of pianists, including more than a few piano professionals, who own rebuilt Steinways and absolutely love them. Maybe someone can explain how this is so, given that rebuids "welcome trouble." As for my own rebuild, I dearly wish that I had "welcomed trouble" many years earlier than I did. I would have been enjoying a Steinway rebuild years ago, instead of only recently. May you be blessed with such trouble! On the "About Restoration" page on the European Pianocraft website, you can see the famous Steinway memo where a Steinway official said that their principal competition is from their own rebuilt vintage grands, thanks to the high quality and longevity of vintage Steinways. So there are a few more points to consider. I hope they help you. On the other hand, you seem fixated on Chinese grands, so perhaps ultimately I will be writing this post for other observers who want a great piano and know a great deal when they see about fifty or sixty of them. In any case, good luck with your Chinese grand.
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No, Prospero, not fixated on Chinese grands in the least. I am still open to the idea of a rebuild, but now need to hear some locally in order to make an educated decision.
I am hesitant, though, to buy a piano sight unseen from afar at this point because it doesn't really seem like the most prudent thing to do.
And again, thank you for your continued advice. I do agree with you that the great rebuilders have stayed in business because they have done excellent work, and I don't ever remember saying that I had completely discounted this avenue. But like I said, I now need to find some examples of rebuilds and see if they are playing as nice as they should.
Thanks again for your input.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
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