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OK. I've written for many years here about my POV re what we teach, and I think most people have missed it.

So here it goes again:

I am fascinated by foreign languages, and I discovered past the age of 30 that I have a talent for reading them.

The first language I set about trying to learn to read fluently was German, and at one point I got a set of textbooks for high school students, then I got another, then I got another, then another. I also got any number of books that were not textbooks. But in addition to this, I bought every book I could find for German children, and I did this by getting someone to help me order from Germany.

So while other people were doing the "adult" thing, which always promises students to learn MORE in LESS time with SMALLER and more ADULT books, I did the opposite thing. I just absorbed, and absorbed and absorbed.

I wanted structure to go with the more passive reading, in case I wanted to write and talk to people, so I wanted to get the "school" part. But I did not want to be tested, or go through endless, complicated grammatical exercises, so I somewhat passively paid attention to the grammar in each book, just letting it sink in.

Later, as perhaps is common for adults, I felt I needed some kind of outside testing in something standard, so I signed up for a college course in German.

In this class I watched a professor use a "college level" textbook, and I was shocked to see that it had perhaps 1/3 the number of pages of the high school textbook I had collected. Then I watched college level students struggling horribly, trying to learn all the basics condensed into one book, and they failed horribly, for the most part.

But because of the way I had absorbed everything, each chapter was nearly effortless for me. I had an overview. When I set out to master something, I already had skills I needed to build structure upon. Even though there was no scholastic reason for me to take the course, I aced it. It was easy, fun, and it was all fluent.

That changed my view of how to teach music, because for the first time I realized that EACH piano method is essentially trying to do the same thing - reinvent the wheel.

To this moment you will see people here talking about how wonderful method A, B or C is. Whereas my experience is that we could get the world's best method by combining ALL methods, not their instructions, but their materials.

We do this in a sense when we teach music for children by Tchaikovsky, Schumann, Kabalevsky, and so on. Add to that some of the Chopin Waltzes, because although Chopin did not teach children, he was a master teacher and knew how to present things that most people could master more easily.

Then add to that the materials of one of the greatest teachers of children of all times - JS Bach - because he taught his own children.

Today we teach ALL of this music. We do not think that these materials are competing, or interfering with each other. We just know, intuitively, that they are all good, and the real trick is finding out what order to teach them in.

But the moment Thompson, Schaum and Aaron came out, decades ago, the idea was that ONE of these methods was better than the others. Today it is much the same, with some people leaning towards Alfred this or that, others towards another series, and it's the same thing.

We cannot simply take ALL of these materials and put them together, graded, into one book. And we can't ask our students to buy 10 different series (because of copyright), then use all of them, because the price is ridiculous. 10 books of the same level, 10 different series, would be $60 or $70 per level - or more.

But if you go through the best methods on the market, you will find the same music in all of them. They each present different "original" pieces, but the moment they get to Bach, Chopin, Grieg, Beethoven, Mozart (and on and on and on) the pieces are pretty much the same.

Somewhere in these methods you will find the easiest Chopin Preludes, Fuer Elise, CPE Bach's Solfegietto, some easy Kabalevsky pieces, a couple easy pieces by Bartok, and so on.

There are only a very limited number of great pieces by great pieces that can be taught to fairly young students, and they are duplicated again and again in method books.

If you are not concentrating on them, there are the other pieces written by people like Palmer (Alfred) and other people editing and contributing to other method books.

And so:

To make it plain, what I have done is to try to write OTHER pieces for students in their first few years, with complete control over fingering, pedal marks, phrasing, dynamic marks, other things. But at no time do I avoid teaching ANY music from ANY method book that seems good to me, and I weave into this material as many pieces as I can find in the public domain, notating and editing in the way that seems best to me.

So what I do is dynamic in the sense that I not only print out the things I have prepared, mixing these things with any books that I think are excellent, I also edit and encourage suggestions about editing from each student, then make these changes in each lesson.

That is why I have never tried to publish. If I published, I would merely publish a snapshot in time of where I was, at some moment, when what I am doing NOW is beyond that, and still changing.

Yes, but they are all negative:

1) A parent wants to take over, wants to be the teacher.
2) There are power wars going on between the parent and the student.
3) There is emotional manipulation going on, where the parent is borderline abusive, and I can see it.
4) A child is manipulating the parent.

In such situations my students are always far behind other students who do not have such problem parents. Yes, I want the parents out of lessons, but in most cases I don't want to deal with the children either, because they go home to a toxic environment.

I don't want a friendship with kids between kindergarten and 5th grade. I want any rapport to develop with a parent present. I am teaching the parents along with the children. I am showing them how to work with their kids at home, which means that they get lessons as many times as 7 days a week. If the parents of a child between kindergarten and 3rd grade is not able to understand what I am teaching faster than the child, I am working with a very stupid and lazy parent.

By middle school it starts to change. If I work with a small child, and that child does very well, by 9th grade I do not need the parent around.

But when starting older kids, I want a parent there, same reasoning. By 8th grade kids think they know more than their parents. I was the same. But parents still are very good at understanding the reasoning behind what I am teaching. They understand the need to practice. They understand following directions. They understand why focus is central to everything.

If a student aged 13 (around 7th grade or 14 (around 8th grade) has a lousy relationship with his (or her) parent, I know I am going to have problems.

Let me give you a counter-example:

I have a girl who is about 14 who started perhaps 3 months ago. I suggested that her mother be in all lessons, and I think maybe the mother and the daughter were thinking that this might not be the best. But I stressed the fact that in America most parents are quite content to drop their kids off and then go shopping, or something like that.

This girl is from South America. Her mother is very young looking, very cool, and I can see that there is an excellent relationship between them. So from lesson one we have all had a great time. The girl does not feel her mother is spying on her, or pushing her. I never talk to the girl as if she is just a kid. I speak to her as if she is an intelligent, focused person, and I invite her mother to watch and to enjoy the process. I can sense that the mother is a positive influence, and everything is cool. Now, what will I do in a couple years if the girl continues to make great progress?

I will leave it entirely up to both of them. But there are advantages to intelligent teens having the influences of two adults. The teen may feel repressed, suffocated, limited. But the teen may also feel entitled by TWO adults who are giving him power (in this case HER), while both adults are also supportive and encouraging.

The child needs to do this by college age. But before that time it is a gradual thing.

From the first moment of a lesson I am teaching. There is no time for this in my lessons. We may talk a bit about such things while the lesson is going on, but the "complaints" may come from the students, about homework, testing, stress, and that needs to be addressed.

I don't disagree, but not all parents are trying to torpedo the independence of their children. Are you sure you are not letting your personal experiences color your ideas about most parents?

I say this because my family was pretty screwed up, and I tend to think that all kids went through what I went through.

The word "pass" is a polite word meaning "die" or "croak". But yes, I would "share" what I have done, now, before I "pass", if it were finished. But it is not.

P.S. Do you have students that despite all your efforts still take a long time to read music? [/quote]

Gary D. I really appreciate reading your thoughts on parents sitting in on lessons from a teacher's POV. I sit in on my son's lessons each week and I think that is wonderful that you encourage your students' parents to sit in. Most "lessons" that children are involved with are drop off (dance, sports i.e.) and so I could see otherwise involved parents making that mistake.

Over time, I've realized how important it is that I sit in on his lesson and listen as I can help reinforce the concepts that she is teaching him and that's despite the fact that I can't play the piano and don't read music. I've learned to follow along well enough to know where he is in a piece via the the counts so I can watch for (counts, dynamics, etc). Also, if he's having problems with a certain section of music and I listen in I can usually "get it" enough to mostly reinforce what to do at home.

According to my son's teacher, he is making good progress and I find listening to him play piano each night and "helping" him practice has been a wonderful bonding experience between the two of us. I definitely couldn't help with practice in a meaningful way if I didn't listen in.

My family was pretty screwed up, too. And if I actually believed that all kids go through what I went through, then I would ... honestly, I don't know what I would do. I just know I'd rather not live in such a world.

The reason I am latching on to those two lines from you, Gary, is this: as an older teenager, for a single year, I had a piano teacher. She absolutely changed my life for the better. And it had very little to do with what she taught me about music.

My family was pretty screwed up. In the house where I grew up, danger lurked around the corner every hour of every day. Serious violence was only an occasional reality, but the threat of it was omnipresent. And at the age of twenty-nine, I have yet to come up with any kind of a clue as to how I could have (reliably) predicted when the danger was or was not going to strike. Growing up, I only knew one thing: that making a mistake (by whatever definition of "mistake" happened to be in vogue that week), exponentially decreased my chances of getting through the day unharmed. So I learned to be "perfect". Unsurprisingly, I quickly discovered that it is actually impossible to be perfect all the time. So sometimes, I found myself covering things up, or outright lying about them, in order to at least avoid getting caught in a mistake.

When I was fifteen, I met the first person with whom I ever felt safe enough to occasionally screw up in front of her. That person was my piano teacher. I dare say that my thirty or so lessons with her turned me into an entirely different kind of person than I would otherwise have been. Do you honestly believe that could have happened if either or both of my parents had been looking over my shoulder during my lessons? I think not.

From what you've written, I can't actually conclude that when you sense a toxic family dynamic going on, your solution is to let go of that family, parent(s) and child(ren) alike. But if it is, then the next time you are tempted to implement that solution, perhaps you will remember the story I just told you. Perhaps you will decide to simply kick out the parents.

Perhaps. I hope so.

Just replying to the "wrong note" problem. When confronting a parent/student who is hung up on wrong notes, I play Happy Birthday rhythmically way off - totally wacky, barely recognizably - and then pose the question to them, "Not a wrong note, so I played the piece perfectly?" When they respond that I didn't, I reply, "But I played all the notes correctly, so why isn't the piece perfect?" You can usually see the light bulbs turning on over their heads. As a followup, I generally discuss that while getting the notes correct, there are other aspects which are equally important, and one isn't more important than the others. So, generally, I don't fret over the occasional wrong note and neither should they.

These are the wonderful stories lurking in many piano studios -
thanks for sharing!

Gary, the piano pedagogy industry in the US will never get what you are talking about. Unless you start giving seminars. And even then, probably not.

Bravo!

I think this thread might be in the running for longest thread ever! lol

Thank you Gary for the long answer. You wondered if I might be letting my personal experiences color my ideas about most parents.

I make it my personal habit to let all of my experiences color my view of the world. That's how I can figure out what's going on, just as everybody else is trying to do.

More to the point, I recognize there are all types of situations between parents and their kids. But I have goals for my students. I WANT them to be very independent.

In life, there are many times when you can't have a cheering section behind you, and have to work things out on your own.

When you go to the doctor, do you bring somebody with you? Some people do so if it's serious, but mostly, as adults, we should be able to contend with an ear infection on our own. In some cultures, not only your family but other people's families are there for you at the doctor's office. But that's not the norm in these parts.

Many important careers are best pursued by people who can be independent thinkers. Sometimes there are many lonely hours just studying for those careers. For instance, you might consult occasionally with a thesis adviser, but nobody else will really "get" your thesis like you do.

By sitting in on more than the occasional lesson, I feel the parents ARE torpedoing the independence of their children. What other definition of torpedoing independence is there?

Anyhow, it takes too much energy for me to deal with extra people in my studio, angelic or otherwise. So it really comes down to philosophy and personal choice.

I have a 6-year-old girl student. She can't read yet, but she recognizes some letters. We have had lessons for almost a year now. All my efforts have been spent in learning letters first. A like Ape. D like Dinosaur. Yesterday we learned only F clef, 3 notes A, H (our B is same as English B flat) below middle C and middle C. We drew F clef and many A's, H's and C's in different colours, on stave and letters. There was one song in one popular method book (Little Piggy) which had only those three notes. Then I composed a 4 bar song (drew notes on blank sheet) with only those 3 notes. It was entitled "Carrot". Then she composed a song of her own, again only those 3 notes. It was entitled "Pear".

So, she won't be doing any exams for some time, I guess. Personally, after 12 years of teaching, I'm fed up with exams.

So do I. I think you have a very wrong impression of what goes on my lessons.

Yes, but not at age 5, 6 and 7. I start with very young kids, and my best students are almost always the ones who start the youngest.

I am teaching the young children and their parents at the same time. Often it is a shy parent who is unsure of things, afraid to try to find notes and learn what music is about.

One of my best students is still seven. His father is a band director, and they way these two work together is superb. Do you think little boys learn to play baseball or basketball without adult mentors around? Why in heaven's name would I not use such help? The boy's progress is obviously way faster than usual. I see nothing unhealthy going on. This is a 1st grader, and so far he loves music.

If you are 7, of course you do.

You are lumping together students of all ages. Maybe you do not start children as young as I do.

Independence is something that develops over time. If a very mature and independent middle school student wants to take lessons alone, do I allow it? Yes. Usually the student and parents come to that decision.

But a lot of parents do not come to lessons because it is simply easier for them not to do so, no matter how much it slows down progress.

I think that an ear infection and taking weekly lessons AND learning out how to get the most out of practicing is hardly the same thing.

Not if the parent has been ASKED to do so by the teacher, and the teacher has provided reasons for doing so.

Again, with young children the parents are processing the basic facts of music faster than the children. They learn concepts quicker because they are adults. They will pick up the logic behind lines and spaces, key signatures, accidentals, so many other things. The parents are always ahead, in the beinning. The children pick up physical skils faster. The absorb better. By having a child and an adult work together, the potential for success is faster.

Over time this changes. The child catches up. In just a few years the most intelligent parent will lag way behind, unless the parent is also a player.

Yes, that is a personal choice. But I do not believe the parents who do as I ask are torpedoing anything.

I am a very independent person myself. So I am quite sure that I am not helping unleash little drones into the world. That is against everything I believe in.

I think by parsing my message, you sometimes lose the main point in my argument. Regarding the doctor, I meant when you, Gary, go to the doctor....because I'm trying to understand your particular view of independence. I don't expect seven-year-old's to go to the doctor alone, unless their mother happens to be a pediatrician.

I don't start children at 5, and preferably not 6. I don't think that extra year makes a bit of difference. The best age I find is 7. A six year old will be at the same place in two years as a seven-year-old is in one year.

I've had a seven-year-old who phoned me to cancel lessons, and I've had 17-year-olds whose parents made every phone call throughout their time with me. I prefer the more independent approach. I wouldn't have as much fun teaching the way you do. That's what it really boils down to.

I do like your sense of humor Gary on the matter of drones, though.

It's people like Gary D. that keep PW alive...

Well, it never occurred to me that your point was about me. I spend half my life talking about sheople, and the students most like are as stubborn and independent as I am.

An extra year makes no difference if the student is not ready. But you can as easily say that an 8 year old after one year will be in the same place as a 7 year old after two years. I judge when to start each student on a individual basis.

OK. Then there is nothing more to discuss here.

I was not really being humorous. My message is always the same: learn to focus. Learn how to learn things quickly. Learn through music how to apply intelligent methods to solving problems and achieving goals. Question every thing. And when someone tells you not to question, you are dealing with someone very dangerous.

I think this is a generality more than anything else, and there is some truth to it.

Older kids do learn things faster because they have more prior knowledge and a higher vocabulary level. They will more likely be mentally and emotionally ready to learn, and less likely to be distracted. Their math level will be a little higher--so they can understand more abstract concepts like rhythm and dynamics, and maybe even fractions.

That being said, I still prefer to teach younger kids and get them started on the right track.

A thought to independence raised by Candywoman:

There is a line between being suffocated and being guided. I was left to myself - I was very independent in that sense. I had to invent the wheel - every wheel - and got pretty good at doing so. There is a guidance that gradually lets go, which gives you tools, and when you have tools that in itself gives independence. Bumbling about with your crooked self-styled wheels is not an ideal state either. Ok, this was abstract - I'll be more concrete:

Parents of young children will end up, one way or another, being involved when their children practise at home. Even ignoring the child, having the tv blasting while the child is trying to pracise, or not providing time & space is a negative form of involvement. They may also get involved by trying to "help" without knowing what is going on or what that help should be like. That help can interfere with or undermine what the teacher did, and then confuse the child or create inner conflict. If instead the parent has been in the lessons and received guidance by the teacher on how to guide - inferring from this:

Since one way or another the parent of a young child will be involved at home in the child's practice, then maybe guided guidance could lead to the independence that comes from having tools.

I am talking here about independence of a piano student - independence by getting solid in whatever thing you are learning. This may not be the social independence that I think was being referred to, but getting good at something has a wondrous way of bolstering confidence and self-esteem everywhere else.

Bennison,

I went through the ABRSM system myself. I squeezed in whatever pieces I could after practising my 3 per year, but still felt that my repertoire was deficient and didn't take the Diploma exams. For violin, I only have a Grade 5, but am happily playing in a (non-professional) orchestra.

My son just went through his first Guild test and it was a very good learning experience. After "learning" his pieces, I thought the memorization part would be easy- but it wasn't. It's really, really hard for an 8 year old to play 4 pieces well . My son did very well on his test based on what has been written here and what his teacher said. In retrospect though, I can understand why so many teachers on this forum don't like Guild though. It is a huge time commitment and I could see it be demotivating for the casual learner. I'm not exactly sure how my son became a more serious student- but I know having an EXCELLENT and inspiring teacher has been essential.

My wife and I have our Guild auditions in 10 days.

I will write about our experiences in the ABF if anyone is interested...

Please do, BrianDX! Best wishes for the auditions.

Good luck!

I did Guild auditions for at least five years, because I have a five year pin in my jewelry box.

I had no clue what I was doing. I memorized pretty well, and had expressive playing.

But not until I became my HS choir accompanist (as a HS student myself) did I begin to understand key signatures, and how to sightread, and just what those chord markings meant!

In college, I wanted to learn more, but my teacher had to prep me for juries each semester. So, I can play some specific pieces well, but I was frustrated.

I asked LOTS of questions in Theory 101.

When I finally took Piano Pedagogy, it was like coming home. I was learning, as I was learning to teach. Every single day I teach, and I teach five days a week, I say something my professor said. She was my mentor, even though I was not one of her favorites or gifted majors.

It was the understanding, and the inspiration that she shared, that, and having us teach in front of others, and take notes on each other's teaching methods.

As for Guild today, as a teacher, I am not a part of it. I have only had one transfer parent ask about it, because her son had done well with his "old" teacher that moved away.

He, too, could memorize quite easily, but when it came time to check his knowledge, he was locked into thinking RH 3 on E, locked into middle C position, only, and all the time. No idea how to count, barely recognized symbols, and had no idea their names or meanings, and I have been working with him and letting his mom know each week what we are working on.

Mom has now seen that the past teacher had him echo, and copy, to memorize. His scales (just one octave) were doing turns on finger number 4?!? Ouch! He would run out of fingers, and do weird finger calisthenics to finish.

ex) CM RH 12341234 LH ascending was usually ok. For descending, he would do the weird turn on 4. 12341234.
One octave, only. And his fingerings were not consistent.

And he had no idea why he was playing the half and whole steps, or when. We have worked a lot on ear training, and just did Major and minor pentascales and arpeggios so he could listen to himself.

I have learned to have him play a piece the first time, only mentally. (Analyzing) and then to play it "for real, with sound." And he thinks that was a great musical discovery!

So, Guild done as an enrichment, and an assessment, is fine.

Teaching the subjects good. Teaching to test,not so good.

When I have my twice yearly recitals, I have to be careful with my time management to not stop everything to focus solely on recital prep. I want them to enjoy what they are doing, and not stress out.

I guess it comes down to good communication.

About half my parents sit in on lessons. I keep them out of the line of sight, and student and I pretend parent is invisible.

I will tell parents, as child is packing up, "today we learned theory x, and skill y, and will continue developing technique q, while considering artistry z, and songs A, B, and C will be worked on 17x this week!"

It may be a foreign language to them, but they know that I said something, and I have yet (knock on wood) to have a parent say that I am a clueless know-nothing teacher.

One of may favorite gifts this year was from a 6th grade girl who wrote, in part, "I love your appreciation of me."

Heart, melted.

Guild and/or recital, specific method book...does not matter.
Appreciation, does.