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Nothing odd about the 5,4,2,1 fingering: it's not only standard, it's perfectly logical.
It is standard and I do teach it; however, there are students who absolutely refuse to use the L.H. 4th finger in anything but stepwise passages. It's more for mental security than anything else.
Since their hands are big enough not to cause additional twisting, I do allow some students to use 5-3-2-1 in the L.H.
So you use the third finger for all major chords?, and minor also? If so, do you use if for all arpeggios also?
I find this somewhat comfortable, but when you play the first inversion of chords you have to go back to the fourth or do you? I think I have more tension with the third than the fourth, I use the third in C#, D , Eb, E, Ab, A, Bb, B with no tension.
I also use my third on octaves in chromatic double whites, It's great. I'm experimenting with 1,4 to 2,5 with octaves also, but my hands are a bit too small. I've always wondered why rachmaninov didn't use this (as I'm aware of) as he complained about octaves being harder with huge hands.
And thank you everyone for your ideas, I'm taking in as much as I can. The total relaxation of unused fingers seems to work great for most chords and octaves. I just watched Volodos and he seems to be totally relaxed in the unused fingers in all those passages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qG9PZNJI_k
And by the way. Do you have any better example of great pianism than Volodos in this video? If so I would love to take part of it.
5421 for a chord in that configuration is found in many Czerny exercises and other places. It's a perfectly legitimate choice. I prefer 5321 myself.
Since you asked for more examples, here's a great example of someone with great musical vitality and physical relaxation playing a piece with lots of double octaves -- her unused fingers flop around on the keys quite a bit during the octave playing.
And here is Gilles Vonsattel who is local to us now -- this is a performance from the Concours de Geneve. I think he's maybe the most relaxed pianist I've seen live.
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on: Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée William Grant Still - Three Visions
5421 for a chord in that configuration is found in many Czerny exercises and other places. It's a perfectly legitimate choice. I prefer 5321 myself.
Since you asked for more examples, here's a great example of someone with great musical vitality and physical relaxation playing a piece with lots of double octaves -- her unused fingers flop around on the keys quite a bit during the octave playing.
I don't know whether you're looking at what I'm looking at, but she played those double octaves like the vast majority of pianists (e.g. at 3:45) - indeed, with the three inside fingers sticking out, i.e. extended. Not relaxed at all, though her whole playing demeanour is of non-straining, as one would expect.
The dotted half notes between 3:40 and 3:45 are an exception to the way she plays throughout the rest of the piece. I am sure it is a choice in order to get that sudden slightly harsh accent. One would not want that in all of one's octave playing.
The Vonsattel video might be a better example anyway because of the much better video quality and the great closeups of his hands.
Last edited by hreichgott; 04/17/1502:36 PM.
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on: Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée William Grant Still - Three Visions
The dotted half notes between 3:40 and 3:45 are an exception to the way she plays throughout the rest of the piece. I am sure it is a choice in order to get that sudden slightly harsh accent. One would not want that in all of one's octave playing.
The Vonsattel video might be a better example anyway because of the much better video quality and the great closeups of his hands.
If you look at his RH octaves (starting at 11:37), he is holding his inner fingers aloft - not completely straight out, but not relaxed either. But enough, so they don't slap down on the keys every time he plays an octave.......
So you use the third finger for all major chords?, and minor also? If so, do you use if for all arpeggios also?
I find this somewhat comfortable, but when you play the first inversion of chords you have to go back to the fourth or do you? I think I have more tension with the third than the fourth, I use the third in C#, D , Eb, E, Ab, A, Bb, B with no tension.
Juilliard sounds really cool ... but the truth has always seemed a little unfair to me. In order to be accepted into Juilliard, the student is already at a very advanced level. I learned 95% of what I know from other teachers BEFORE I landed at Juilliard. Lubka Koless, Kenneth Gilbert from the Quebec Conservatoire gave me my foundation. And an unknown angel, Joyce Rawlings imparted her love of music to me when I was a child. My websites are a homage to her and her loving techniques.
Juilliard's name allows that institution to ride on the coattails of other teachers and an enormous amount of training and talent on the part of students who apply at that admissions audition. It's nice to be able to list a Juilliard degree among one's credentials. But it's not fair to be able to garner all the credit.
Back to those fingerings. I use the third for all left hand major ( octave span) chords. But for the minors I often use the fourth, if the 3rd note is a black one. The D, E and A ... which are the same confomation as C+ ... I use the 3.
For the first inversion, I do use the 4th ... both for octave chord and for the arpeggios.
I think you're on the right track when you evaluate the "tension" you feel and let that be your guide. Individual hand sizes, finger lengths and even extensions, vary so widely between each pianist that we have to realize that "one size doesn't fit all" and allow ourselves to choose options.
( For the record, I have a deformed "pinkie" in the right hand and cannot comfortably hit the major octave chord ... so I omit the lower of the octaves ( unless it's part of an inner "voice" ). I have done this for years. It is almost imperceptible even in a recording unless one is waiting for it.
Fluidity and feeling ... more important than any specified gymnastics
The dotted half notes between 3:40 and 3:45 are an exception to the way she plays throughout the rest of the piece. I am sure it is a choice in order to get that sudden slightly harsh accent. One would not want that in all of one's octave playing.
The Vonsattel video might be a better example anyway because of the much better video quality and the great closeups of his hands.
If you look at his RH octaves (starting at 11:37), he is holding his inner fingers aloft - not completely straight out, but not relaxed either. But enough, so they don't slap down on the keys every time he plays an octave.......
Ok, now I think we are probably using different words to describe the same thing. Anyway, I recommend what both these pianists do in their octave technique
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on: Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée William Grant Still - Three Visions
Not completely unrelated but I have English question.
Is finger position different from fingering? Also when do you use singular vs plural (finger positions)? When do you use fingering vs fingerings? Thanks.
I think the term "fingering" always refers to *which* fingers are used in a certain passage (or chord). Here, 5421 and 5321 have been discussed as different LH fingeringS for the C chord. "Finger position" seems more of a vague description-- curved vs. straight, relaxed vs. tense, maybe? If I asked my teacher about my "finger position" in a passage, he would probably ask for a bit of clarification, as it's not a term we have used. I guess it's included in "hand position."
