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Bosendorfer's have that effect on people. the SMP is $178K for the 225, I wonder what type of discounts you can expect for a Bosendorfer? Are they more/less non-negotiable or are they like Yamaha's where the street price is sometimes close to 50% off MSRP?

I only fell for that one Bosendorfer-- I've probably played about 10 now, including a concert grand. I did get offered a very good price for a 185CS (well below SMP) that I was requested to keep confidential, so honestly I have no idea about pricing flexibility. I'd definitely try to make it work if they were willing to knock off $100K though

Day 2 of my Seattle piano search (now that I've gotten around to my photos):

We started the day by visiting LightHammer Pianos, Ed McMorrow's rebuilding workshop in Mukilteo. I'm sure Ed will see this; it was really nice to meet you, Ed! Hope you don't mind me saying that you're a character Ed was really quite a gracious host, and his rebuilds were definitely among the best I've played.



I started with the three Steinways at the right, which were nice but didn't grab me. I then played the little Baldwin at the end, which had a nice, rich tone. I liked it more than the Steinways, for sure. I then moved on to the 5'1" Chickering which may just be the prettiest little piano I've ever seen! It had an incredibly smooth and sensitive action, and a big and rich voice for such a little piano. I wanted to love it but the tone was too warm and "thick" for me, I guess I like a little more sparkle and immediate clarity. Ed said that the tone would brighten over time and that he knew what the result would sound like, but I could only refer to what was in front of me.





Ed also had a massive Chickering (photo didn't come out) that had a rich bass, but I thought the touch wasn't as nice as the little one. The thing that struck me the most about his pianos (especially on the Chickerings) was the sustain-- held notes were long and I really felt that they bloomed, like the sound quality would change over time. In contrast, my Petrof also has pretty good sustain but the note is just long, and I don't feel that there is a character to the sustain itself. Anyway, Ed has really nice pianos, the tone just wasn't for me. But if I was really limited in space I may very well have gone for that little Chickering....

Michelle's no longer an authorized Estonia dealer so they may have a vested interest to not show an Estonia in best prepped condition. Classic Pianos, their direct competitor in Portland,will.



I don't blame you but you need to compare this 7' Faz against others of same size. We recently sold a 6'10 Estonia exactly against this model - and won.

But not always so lucky: we also lost one recently in same comparison.

It can go either way: not bad considering there's almost 70 k difference between the pianos...

When in bay area, do check out Kassman.

Russell has a way to shed unexpected light onto these type questions.

Plus he has a special gift to save $$ for his customers...

Norbert

Norbert, after playing so many pianos it's pretty clear to me that the Estonia at Michelle's was completely unprepped. However, the one I played at Classic didn't do anything for me either, it seemed too mellow and lacking dynamic range.

That 7' Fazioli at Portland Piano Company was my favorite of the pianos there but I didn't love it, I just liked it more than the others. But if you keep reading you'll find that I fell for a 7' Bosendorfer! I'm just playing all the pianos I can and seeing what I like, while pretending I don't know the price

I may very well be going to the Bay Area, both because my sister lives there and a crazy possible opportunity-- about a piano, of course. But more on that later, if it happens. I'd love to visit Kassman's store if I go.

Continuing Day 2 of our piano search in Seattle (which actually ended up being Days 2 and 3...), we drove up to Stanwood in the afternoon to visit Fandrich & Sons. A little background here, I've been wanting to visit their workshop for about 10 years now, since reading about the Fandrich Vertical Action when I was researching on upright pianos (I'm a compulsive-research type person!). We lived in Austin then and a visit wasn't really practical.

Anyway, I was really excited to go see them! They live and work on a beautiful wooded property, and this was their piano showroom:



It was so clear when we visited Ed McMorrow that he loves his work, and the same is true for Darrell and Heather Fandrich. When I visited, they had a 5'5", a 5'7" (or maybe it was a 6'2"?), and a new 7-footer that they were still working on. They said that it had just come from NAMM and the tech there had voiced it, so Darrell was working on voicing it to his taste. They also had a 1980's W. Hoffmann (built in the Feurich factory), and a "demonstrator closeout" August Hoffman. They didn't have any of their vertical action uprights, but had a Bohemia upright.

I think I should make it clear that I was pretty exhausted by the time we got there. I hadn't been sleeping well for a couple of weeks, and although playing tons of pianos is fun, it can be tiring too. I had so many expectations for these pianos, but when I sat down the touch just didn't seem right. The two smaller Fandrich & Sons grands seemed like they had really deep key depth, and the key travelled down too fast. The 5'5" actually had a bigger and clearer voice than the bigger grand next to it (I found out later that it had different bridge technology, and Darrell said he could probably bring out the most from that little piano). I played the 7-footer, and although it had the richness that you'd expect from such a big piano, I could hear a lot of pinging overtones in the treble.

The W. Hoffmann was way too mellow and I found that the action wasn't sensitive enough. The 5'8" August Forster had a big, clear, cheerful voice and a nice touch, similar to the one that I had played at Classical Grands.

Anyway, it was at this point that I told the Fandrichs that the touch just wasn't for me (and I was sad to have to tell them) and they debated between themselves for a bit and concluded that I must like a heavier, more meatier touch than most other people. We took a tour of their workshop and they showed us an older tropicalized, metal-studded piano they were refurbishing (should have taken a photo!). At this point, we left to go to the cottage that we'd rented up in Mount Vernon so that my husband could enjoy a couple of days off that didn't involve pianos.

The next day, we were enjoying the cottage when I got a phone call from Heather Fandrich. She said that the 7-footer definitely wasn't representative of their work since it was voiced by someone else at NAMM, and Darrell had spent quite a bit of time on more voicing, and would I return the next day on our way back to check it out and give my opinion? She didn't want me to leave with the wrong impression of their pianos.

So the following morning we went back to Fandrich & Sons before driving back to Portland. The 7-footer definitely did sound much better in the lower and middle ranges. Heather said that the treble still needed more work. I heard another pinging note and Heather fixed it on the spot. I went back and played the rest of the pianos. Maybe because I now expected a light touch, I wasn't so unnerved, though it was still not for me. The 5'5" piano had a beautiful tone and quite a big voice, reminded me of a well-prepped Steinway. And the slightly larger model was perfect for the delicate Schubert Impromptu, but not satisfying for the louder pieces. I played the W. Hoffmann again, and Darrell started voicing it when I said that it was too mellow for my taste. What Heather said was a perfect description of what I was trying to say-- she said that I must like a bit of "sparkle" in the tone. I think the W. Hoffmann did sound a bit better after Darrell voiced it.

Here's where it gets interesting: the Fandrichs started to tell me that half of it is the piano, and half of it is work by a good tech. They told me that if I mostly like my Petrof, have a good tech spend a day or two fine-regulating it, and then refine over many trips until it's the piano I want. So suddenly, after all that searching, maybe what I was looking for was at home and just needed its potential to be unleashed! I told them that I had an appointment to play a used Shigeru Kawai and also a Schimmel K189 back in Portland, but I would definitely consider their advice.

Here's Heather and Darrell with their 5'5" grand:



It's this afternoon that I'm going to check out those two other pianos, and I've been really mulling over whether I should keep the Petrof if neither of those pianos are "the one". In the end, I think I've played too many incredibly nice pianos to feel happy with what I've got.

There's also a (crazy) potential opportunity in CA that I'm not ready to talk about yet... part of me thinks that it's insane for me to consider and part of me is saying "yes! book your tickets now!". So let's see

That one comment about 1/2 piano and 1/2 tech is pretty insightful and helpful. It's the sort of comment that seems simple but has never been so succinctly articulated.

twocats,
Thanks for your visit and posting the pictures.

I was trying to discuss what you dislike in your Petrof to help guide you in any work that may be possible to bring you into accord with it. What you need to keep in mind is that pianos get brighter with use. I have found it far more efficient in delivering long term musical satisfaction to work with hammers that you bring up to tone. Your Petrof has hammers that must be brought down to tone and they do not hold up as well nor do they hold their voice as well long term.

At the time of your visit I had done no tuning/regulation or voicing on any of the pianos in my showroom for three months. This should give you some inkling of the kind of longevity work like mine provides. I have pianos I rebuilt thirty years ago that I still service and I have been able to experience how tone evolves with use and what kind of setup provides the best long term musical value.

There are no new pianos that contain the elements I provide in my rebuilds that produce this stability and response. If there were, I would sell them.

If what you dislike in your Petrof's tone is the somewhat "nasal" sound that all the ones I have played had-then you may need to replace the piano. This nasal tone quality is deeper in the piano than the hammers. Voicing the existing hammers or replacing them and tone regulating the entire piano can mitigate some of this tone quality, but it will always remain at some level.

Thanks for visiting!

Trying to put some fractional amount on each seems rather silly to me. Why not just say the prep is very important or a great piano does not show its greatness without the work of a good tech. Actually, when dealing with tier 1 piano, some have said one of the main differences is the amount of factory prep they receive so the part about the importance of a post sale prep may not be so true.

Manufacturer's prep gets the piano ready to be shown. Dealer's prep may refine that. Post sale prep is what a piano needs for the long run.

Hi Ed, actually, I don't dislike the tone of my piano. It's quite sweet and lively, though after playing many more (expensive) pianos, I've come to appreciate the more complex and rich tones that some others have. Though after playing more pianos today, I think maybe it's also a size issue... the bigger pianos of course have a depth that isn't fair to compare against my Petrof.

My issue is more with the touch, which I suppose that I could have a good tech work on. But I think at this point, I'm just looking for a piano that I feel more emotionally connected to

Played more pianos today at Classic Pianos, and my favorite of the day was a Schimmel K195 with platinum hardware. I actually thought that it might be the same favorite Schimmel from my Seattle trip, but upon coming home and comparing serial numbers, it turns out that they weren't the same piano. But I think they might be the same model! If the price wasn't so high, it could be a serious contender.

I also played a used Shigeru Kawai SK5. It was in a very small living room, with the opening up against the window. The owner said that he usually plays with the lid closed since the sound is so big, but I went ahead and played at full stick, which resulted in quite a big, clear sound. At one point I decided to take it down to half-stick, and was surprised at the sudden sweetness and warmth in the tone! The touch was on the heavy side when playing pianissimo in the mid-lower range, and the owner said that the MPA had lightened the touch, which surprised me. It was an incredibly responsive piano and trills were easy despite the heavier touch (which I'm sure could easily be addressed by a tech). It's definitely on my list.

A very cool thing is that the owner really loves piano, both playing and attending performances, and said he'd send me info on a bi-monthly recital if I'd like to go play in front of others. I already made one friend who came to play the Petrof (we've been swapping piano search stories) and it's so nice to meet more people in Portland who love music!

It's because it doesn't have the violin corpus. Jk. joke from another Petrof thread.

Anyway enjoying your comments.

Don't assume that! I've found that Kawais are heavier than many high tier pianos - and even after techs have lightened them as much as they can, they are still not what you would call a light action. The only way to make them play lightly is with lighter hammers - which you probably wouldn't do with a new piano.

Beautiful showroom you have there Ed, and a lovely little Chickering!

ando, thanks for this feedback! I'm not looking for a light action, just a bit lighter than what I played last night. Hmmmmm, if I end up being serious about the SK, maybe I should start a new thread and see what other SK owners have to say.

In case I misquoted the Fandrichs, I probably paraphrased the message. I don't think they actually meant a strict half and half

People who love the Shigerus love this action because it offers great dynamic control and it's very durable and consistent due to the use of carbon fibre action components. I love it in theory, but for me it's a little too heavy. If I play very rapid arpeggios like Chopin's etude op 10 no 1, I feel it tires me out. But that's because I've always enjoyed lighter action pianos. It really depends on what you've played all your life as to what an adjustment it would be. For playing slow music, I love the control of the Shigeru - it's just the fast stuff that feels like too much muscular effort for me.

Hi ando, while I'm not at the level of playing that Étude, I think the SK from yesterday would tire me out for sure.

I was just offered a very good price for the Schimmel K195 at Classic so I'm taking that into serious consideration. I'm just waiting for a response from the seller of a piano in CA. If he wants to move forward, I'll go down there in May to check out his piano!