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#2412637 - 04/21/15 09:55 PM New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Have just purchased a Clavinova CLP-585 today (with black satin finish) and it will be delivered this week on Thursday, April 23.

Will be giving a review here shortly and can also post a few recordings so that everyone can hear and compare the "CFX" concert grand to the "Bosendorfer" samples.

"Bosendorfer" extra keys question:

The only detail I see missing in the CLP-585 would be the addition of those nine extra bass keys (from A-flat to the lowest C) which would simulate the Imperial concert grand. I suppose this is not an important feature for Yamaha to have considered since it would obviously make the cabinet physically larger by incorporating those extra keys, although it would have been interesting to have had them added if only to make it a more "authentic" replication of the Bosendorfer. Any other thoughts on that detail?

Question:

I am not going to be missing those extra 9 notes on the CLP-585 since most folks are happy enough with an 88-note keyboard, so when would those additional keys be made use of, in actual performance?

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#2412646 - 04/21/15 10:09 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10426
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By pv88
I am not going to be missing those extra 9 notes on the CLP-585 since most folks are happy enough with an 88-note keyboard, so when would those additional keys be made use of, in actual performance?


Good question.
Here's an interesting extract from the Wikipedia page:

On the Imperial Grand, this characteristic tonal quality in part derives from the inclusion of 9 additional bass notes below bottom A. These extra 9 keys were originally added so that pianists could play Busoni's transcriptions of J.S. Bach's organ works, which required the 32' bass pipes (usually played on the pedal organ). As very little other music makes direct use of the extra strings, they usually contribute to the piano's sonic character not through being played directly but by resonating, when other strings in the piano are struck, contributing additional body to the tone. Moreover, the bass notes of the Bösendorfer, including the extra bass keys, are very powerful, adding volume in demanding literature.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2412656 - 04/21/15 10:55 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Do have to wonder why Yamaha didn't consider including those 9 extra keys on the new CLP-585?

Would have been a very innovative feature, no doubt.
(And, a "first" -- for a digital piano.)

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#2412658 - 04/21/15 11:00 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: Kawai James]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10426
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Probably because "very little other music makes direct use of the extra strings".

However, it might be interesting to check whether those additional strings do produce any sound by the CLP's resonance simulation when the Bosendorfer sound is selected.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2412659 - 04/21/15 11:00 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
MRC Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 225
Loc: Germany
Look at this thread.
_________________________
Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013), Yamaha NU1 hybrid (2014)

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#2412664 - 04/21/15 11:33 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
Ocram Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/15
Posts: 28
I remember my first piano teacher having a grand piano with extra keys at the bottom end. There was even a little hinged flap to conceal them. Pretty sure it was a Yamaha, but it was 35 years ago...

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#2412693 - 04/22/15 02:22 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: Kawai James]
MRC Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/05/14
Posts: 225
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By Kawai James
However, it might be interesting to check whether those additional strings do produce any sound by the CLP's resonance simulation when the Bosendorfer sound is selected.

My money is on no, but I could be wrong.

You can certainly play those extra notes on the CLP, since you can transpose down as much as an octave. But are there really separate samples for the 9 lowest notes, or is the lowest sample simply stretched down? Knowing how all the DP manufacturers do their best to save on space for samples, I think it's probable that they haven't included the separate samples for those notes.

If you have 500 € to spare and you want to hear samples of the whole Imperial range, complete with sympathetic resonance, you could buy the VSL Vienna Imperial sample library.
_________________________
Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013), Yamaha NU1 hybrid (2014)

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#2412697 - 04/22/15 02:50 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: MRC]
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10426
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By MRC
If you have 500 € to spare and you want to hear samples of the whole Imperial range, complete with sympathetic resonance, you could buy the VSL Vienna Imperial sample library.


Albeit stretched, according to dewster.

That being said, I don't believe this DPBSD test is checking beyond keys 1-88.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2412706 - 04/22/15 03:24 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
WaterDweller Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 18
I would love to hear a sample of the upright piano preset, if it wouldn't be too much of a bother. smile Unfortunately, our small town music store only has the CLP-575 on display, which lacks that voice, and I'm really curious about how 'uprighty' it sounds. smile

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#2413308 - 04/23/15 11:28 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Here are three (3) new recordings at the CLP-585:

1) Yamaha "CFX" & ...

2) "Bosendorfer" examples with default settings:

https://app.box.com/s/85w0sme9pddio6r2l4d5op9gdkzzd7xv

Have played Chopin's Prelude in C-minor, Op. 28, No. 20, back to back twice, first using the Yamaha CFX preset and then followed by the Bosendorfer preset.

3) Yamaha "Upright" example with default settings:

https://app.box.com/s/1zbb6d9n5ka9rqjnh8jr5dyemalkgjri

A few bars from the closing theme titled "Remembering You" from "All in the Family."

@WaterDweller,

As for the "Upright" preset it is not a sound I am particularly fond of in the CLP-585 although the tune I play above fits into the upright piano category.

Extra note:

Wanted to add that my previous CLP-480 also had excellent tone in the primary "Grand Piano" preset (perhaps it is to be preferred over the CLP-585) and there is no additional tonal power / volume to be gained in the new CLP-585 as the specs have 180 watts for the CLP-585 and the CLP-480 has 200 watts. The advantage in both tone and power has to go to the CLP-480. Why doesn't the new model get the upgraded specs?

Also, the escapement simulation is hardly noticeable (almost non-existent unless you look for it) which I suppose is a good thing if you are already familiar with all of the older Clavinova's that never had the escapement simulation anyway, except for:

Clavinova CLP-990M -- (which I also own)

It appears odd to me that the older CLP-990M not only has escapement simulation but one can actually produce a soft "pp" sound right from the escapement point (or, "off of the jack" in an acoustic) whereas the CLP-585 cannot do this.

It might be a minor detail for most folks but it is obviously something that Yamaha either overlooked or did not add to the new model so upgrading does not always carry over previous features from older models.

Any thoughts on the omission?

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#2413729 - Yesterday at 04:09 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
peterws Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 4267
Loc: Northern England.
"The tune I play fits into the upright piano category"

Are you serious? The mind boggles. . . long live snobbery! Sorry man, but its a bit early in the morning to take this. . . .:)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes � but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2413954 - Yesterday at 04:32 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Does anyone else wish to review the recordings?

Compare the "CFX" to the "Bosendorfer" Imperial:

https://app.box.com/s/85w0sme9pddio6r2l4d5op9gdkzzd7xv

Here is the "Upright" for WaterDweller:

https://app.box.com/s/1zbb6d9n5ka9rqjnh8jr5dyemalkgjri

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#2413985 - Yesterday at 06:53 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: peterws]
toddy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2055
Loc: Portugal
PV88 The tune I play fits into the upright piano category

Peterws Are you serious? The mind boggles. . . long live snobbery! Sorry man, but its a bit early in the morning to take this. . . .:

PV88 Does anyone else wish to review the recordings?

lotflmfao!! Brilliant. You're working up quite a double act there.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2414025 - Yesterday at 10:35 PM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
AllanH Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Central Coast, California, USA
pv88,
thank you for the recordings. Your playing and choice of music really shows off the depth of the instrument(s). I'm down to focusing on a Kawai CA97 and a Clavinova 585 for our new DP. I have the Garritan CFX, but the 585 is definitely different.

Where I live neither is available, so it at least a few hours drive away. This confirmed that the 585 is a contender.

Thanks for the time & effort!

Allan


Edited by AllanH (Yesterday at 10:39 PM)

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#2414044 - Today at 12:22 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: AllanH]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
@AllanH,

Glad to know that you like what you hear in the CLP-585 and you will want to buy what you think is best in the sounds and action when comparing the CLP-585 to the Kawai CA97. I have already previously traded in a Kawai CA95 that ultimately had piano sounds that were far too "metallic" and harsh to my ears and the Clavinova CLP-480 I had selected as the trade in was far better in this regard.

The CLP-585 would be a very good choice and it is going to be the best digital for the money without having to spend considerably more on one of the AvantGrand(s) or the V-Piano / V-Piano Grand. You will not be able to find better sounds and action at this price point.

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#2414073 - Today at 03:10 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Here is a recording with the Bosendorfer preset (in the default settings) and I am quite impressed with the full bodied resonance and dynamic range that is available to the player in the Elegie, Op. 3, No. 1, of Rachmaninoff:

https://app.box.com/s/vwmwyfgdf17ap4aeih9fi289hv5hgxod

These are definitely the best sounding samples I have heard in any digital I have owned so far and the decay and pedal resonance is simply outstanding. Only the V-Piano has better decay and resonance to offer in its settings.

The Bosendorfer preset is just about perfect for pieces requiring well drawn out and nuanced melodic lines.

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#2414156 - Today at 11:21 AM Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
terminaldegree Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 3009
Loc: western Wisconsin
Originally Posted By pv88

Also, the escapement simulation is hardly noticeable (almost non-existent unless you look for it) which I suppose is a good thing if you are already familiar with all of the older Clavinova's that never had the escapement simulation anyway...


I played the 575 at NAMM (it uses the same action and keys), and thought the very subtle-feeling escapement of the NWX action was pretty nice. Some previous iterations of this feature from other brands feel far too pronounced under my fingers, as the feeling of escapement is something piano technicians often work to minimize when servicing acoustic pianos.

Jim Aikin's review in the current Piano Buyer doesn't mention anything either way with regard to the escapement, when he discusses the action.
_________________________
Pianist, teacher, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Casio px-200 (Blüthner pro-88 on the way!) @ home
NY Steinway A, B @ work
Schimmel 130T, on loan

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#2414262 - 25 minutes 8 seconds ago Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
pv88 Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2895
Sure would like to have a little more feedback on the quality of the recorded examples above (i.e., CFX & Bosendorfer presets) as I already have conceded that the current escapement simulation in the CLP-585 is very subtle just as it should be.

When performing the excerpt from the "Elegie" above I realized that the quality of the samples are very high in both the CFX & Bosendorfer presets and I now happen to favor the rich and resonant Bosendorfer sound in many pieces.

A good pair of headphones (as I have the Sennheiser HD-518's) really brings out the nuances in the dynamics of the samples and it all sounds very convincing and realistic.

Other reviews and comments are appreciated.

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#2414271 - 13 minutes 33 seconds ago Re: New Clavinova CLP-585 & recordings [Re: pv88]
toddy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 2055
Loc: Portugal
It seems the Bosendorfer has a powerful sinuous sound - really well brought out in the Rachmaninov piece you play so movingly. I don't know if it's so different from other sample sets, but the Steinway would be sweeter, perfectly rounded off. The Yamaha perhaps with stronger, brighter presence. Whatever the truth (it's subjective anyway) this is a very interesting sample of the Yamaha Bosendorfer.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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