Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
I think for some people "complex" is just another word for "muddy". As far as "colors' are concerned my tech said something like "all good pianos change color as the dynamic is increased". It may very well be true that Steinways do this to a greater degree than most other top tier pianos.
Although I phrased the above as statements, I'm interested in other people's opinions on them.
I think for some people "complex" is just another word for "muddy". As far as "colors' are concerned my tech said something like "all good pianos change color as the dynamic is increased". It may very well be true that Steinways do this to a greater degree than most other top tier pianos.
Although I phrased the above as statements, I'm interested in other people's opinions on them.
Several years ago I suggested here on the PW forums that someone make a CD recording of the various "classic" grand piano sounds, i.e. the "Steinway" sound, the Yamaha "bright" sound, the so-called "European" sound etc.
Playing the same samples of music, with the pianos mic'd identically.
This would be for people who do not have access to all the well-known brands to get a grasp of what people are talking about.
Because using words to describe nuances of piano sound/tone is like the old saying about "dancing about architecture"...i.e dancing does not explain architecture, and words regarding piano sound characteristics have no common exact definition understood or accepted by all, so they do not clarify much...words such as "color" or "complex" or "woody".
For that suggestion, I was hooted down by some expert, and the suggestion ignored.
I still think such a CD would be helpful, and I would certainly want one.
Pianoloverus, regarding the complex being muddy for some people - I think you're absolutely right. Some people just don't like that kind of orchestral swell in the tone, and find it too unsubtle for even single note melodies. It's especially not the kind of sound you'd really want for a rock/pop recording either because it doesn't tend to cut through the mix with clarity, so the type of music you play is an important factor in your piano choice.
OK when I said it's a louder/softer version of the same sound on the Kawai, I was being basic - painting in primary colours to show my point - of course there is a certain colour change happens on all instruments - even bad ones.
Even the humble Yamaha C3 changes colour to a degree (when I say humble C3, I'm joking. The Yamaha C3 is one of my heroes actually, I spent a LOT of hours with them at conservatoire!).
For the record, right now I'm listening to Artur Pizarro play Liszt Hungarian Rhapsodies on a Blüthner model 1 concert grand - man that thing has colour. It's a completely different aesthetic to the Steinway, but it has that kind of orchestral swell on it. It's so different to Yamaha and Kawai and I can see perfectly well why it might be an acquired taste (or not acquired at all), but for me it's one of my favourite sounds. Shame I can't afford one...
The funny thing is that the very thing I love about the NY Steinway is the very thing that is missing from the Blüthner that I love equally - that the NY Steinway seems to have a more consistent voice across the register, and the colour changes happen almost uniformly as you go through the registers. The Blüthner almost seems to give you a different instrument with each register so that there is a sense of clarity in the voicing. The Yamaha and Kawai seem to fall more into the Steinway's camp with the evenness across the compass, and the only other piano that has the change of registers from high to low in the way that the Blüthner does is the Bösendorfer (the only other one that I have played in recent years, I mean. There are most probably others).
The point I'm making (or missing and rambling incoherently) is that it's wonderful that we have the diversity in tonal palettes between instruments. Particularly in the last 20 years, there seems to be a resurgence in the idea of each maker having their own special voice - and the beautiful offerings from Yamaha and Kawai are most welcome in my ears!
It's a difficult decision. The law of diminishing returns definitely applies when it comes to Shigeru vs. Steinway/European 'top tier' instruments.
I spent a long time trying to decide between buying a Shigeru SK3, a C. Bechstein M/P and a Bösendorfer 185. In the end, I bought an SK3 - and I had enough money left over to put towards a deposit to buy a house. This was a considerable saving, but I don't feel that it was a compromise on quality. For me, I couldn't objectively say that any of the three pianos was better than the other two. They were all different, and ultimately I felt that the tone of the Shigeru was the best compromise between the extremely different sounds coming from C. Bechstein (clarity) and Bösendorfer (warm, resonant).
I have since played a few Bösendorfers in a showroom, and I don't regret my decision. Bösendorfers are sublime, but twice as expensive! And the responsiveness of the action of my Shigeru is all that I could ever wish for (and it has been unbelievably improved after the MPA visit).
As for the discussion above about the tone of a piano changing at different dynamic ranges - my Shigeru does tend to have a relatively even tone at different dynamics, especially in the treble, which I do regard as a shortcoming. But I recently dropped into the dealer where I bought my piano, and they had a new SK3 in stock. What struck me about this piano was that it had a warm dark tone at lower dynamic levels, but as I played louder it really opened up and became much brighter. This is exactly the tone I am looking for - except the action response wasn't nearly as subtle as my piano at home.
So my conclusion is that there is no such thing as the 'perfect' piano. Every top quality hand built piano has its flaws and its strengths. And this is all fluid, because things can always be improved by a good technician, or they can deteriorate if you leave it too long between service visits.
My next step is to ask my tech if he can do some voicing work on my Shigeru to make it a bit more like the one he has for sale at the moment .
Given the 2 choices I would choose the Shigeru. Then go and buy a second piano, say a Mason & Hamlin BB or Baldwin SF10. Then i would have 2 magnificent pianos, each a wonderfully different voice.
Have you thought about comparing pianos that are more similar to the Steinway, such as Mason & Hamlin?
The Mason & Hamlin has the lush and powerful American sound, and models like the AA and BB are often preferred over Steinways of comparable size.
And, you should be able to achieve a substantial cost savings!
Thanks,
Nick
Nick's Piano Showroom Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Kawai, Brodmann & Ritmuller 239-206-4541 direct line www.nickspiano.com
Given the 2 choices I would choose the Shigeru. Then go and buy a second piano, say a Mason & Hamlin BB or Baldwin SF10. Then i would have 2 magnificent pianos, each a wonderfully different voice.
Haha. Don't think that I haven't thought of that option. The only problem with it is that then I'd have to convert yet another room in my house to the realm of my piano habit--my current piano has already caused me to have to convert both my living and dining rooms into more acoustically controlled rooms. Damn, it's a good thing I'm no longer married!
My opinion is SK has crystal clear tone, more similar to Hamburg Steinway. While NY Steinway has dark powerful tone. I have Hamburg Steinway B and regularly play my friend's SK3, and I feel there is similarity in tone character between both. Or, if you have bigger budget, you may consider Hamburg Steinway, you will get the best of both world, a crystal clear Steinway tone.
Everybody has a dream , if your dream is owning a fine piano, both SK and Steinway are fine pianos, but if you have a more specific dream like me, to own a "Steinway", then you are only left with one choice
Good luck and don't forget to post some pictures once you get your piano delivered
Maybe check out a used Steinway B? I tend to like the Kawai sound, although I've never played (or seen in person) a Shigeru. I think laying out $100K for a brand new Steinway is a monumental waste of money. You're paying for a name. There are plenty of 7-footers that are just as good, if not better. Just one guy's opinion.
For me, the Steinway sound that haunts me comes from the vintage instruments. As a reference, you can hear it in the recordings of Horowitz, Rubinstein, Kapell, Fleisher etc. These recordings made in the 40s, 50s and 60s show the grit and color range and expressiveness available to the NY Steinways of another era. This is the sound we obsess over and search for at PianoCraft.
Greetings, Mr Kerman- I find it wonderfully fascinating that you have examined the S&S sound over the periods. Can you please point to a one or two good recordings that best exemplify the color range of this period you like, hopefully with a bit of description, and maybe contrasting it to something that doesn't have what you are looking for?
Many thanks-
phacke
Steinway YM (1933) ...Working on: J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915 (and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
For me, the Horowitz recording of the Barber sonata, in particular the fugue, shows everything in terms of color range and variety, authentic Steinway sound, dynamic range, etc etc. It is pretty close to the ideal Steinway sound and it is a reference for me. The Steinway sound most often requested from clients is the one they hear on Rubinstein recordings from the 50s and 60s.
Here is the Barber on YouTube. If you can find it on CD, or better yet vinyl, you will hear infinite colors and expression not available on the compressed YouTube video. The Fugue starts at 13 53 into the recording. Actually, the whole recording shows Steinway at its best. Make sure and put it on the highest quality setting ( 1080 )
The American "bright" sound is very different than the European "bright" sound. The later has a brittle and glassy sound to my ears. The sound in the Horowitz recording is the quintessential American bright that most of us love. The treble sounds like pure bells ringing. The bass growls and moans. Horowitz's piano was known for being very bright with an exceptionally light action. That's the dirty American bright sound that I like too.
Yeah that's true - European pianos really need to be mellower (generalisation I know), otherwise they can sound unbearable (another generalisation, but it's largely my experience).
American pianos seem to be able to cope with being bright and sound bold and beautiful especially in large spaces.
When I'm playing I prefer European pianos - perhaps that's because I know what to do with them - but when I'm listening to someone who knows what they are doing at the controls of a New York Steinway, I think it rocks.
Don't miss trying a Mason and Hamlin BB. I have done a wide trip and played at least 30 pianos 2 years ago, and finally decided for the BB I now have at home. Everyone has it's own taste for piano's tone and colour, but as long as money is a concern, I think you should broaden your search. Best luck, and please let we know what's your final decision (with pictures!)
Don't miss trying a Mason and Hamlin BB. I have done a wide trip and played at least 30 pianos 2 years ago, and finally decided for the BB I now have at home. Everyone has it's own taste for piano's tone and colour, but as long as money is a concern, I think you should broaden your search. Best luck, and please let we know what's your final decision (with pictures!)
Dear Sean, I must preface my reply by mentioning to you that I'm a senior representative for Steinway here in the Chicago area and have been with Steinway for 27yrs now. Back in 1990, when a new Model B was selling brand new for about $34,000, I had a customer who was considering a new Steinway Model M and also a very good quality piano for about 25% less. He decided to buy the new Model M and I asked him what it was that influenced his final decision. His reply was "I realized that if I bought the other piano, even though it was very nice, I would have spent $18,000 and I still wouldn't have a Steinway...which is what I really wanted." So, even though there are many fine pianos available for purchase, there is something very unique (thankfully) about the character of sound and touch response of our pianos that is just very, very compelling. If you can afford it, buy the new Model B and you'll be a little poor for a while, but very happy. Brian P
Thanks for posting, and being a member of the forum. We don't really have many company reps from S&S on here (I think Bob Snyder is the only active member at this point) - please stick around. The competing dealers here (and some of the forum members) can be rather brutal to brands not in "their" camp, but it's always useful to have some level-headed commentary without the marketing hype (for which your company gets some well-deserved criticism) attached.
I think for some people "complex" is just another word for "muddy". As far as "colors' are concerned my tech said something like "all good pianos change color as the dynamic is increased". It may very well be true that Steinways do this to a greater degree than most other top tier pianos.
Although I phrased the above as statements, I'm interested in other people's opinions on them.
Several years ago I suggested here on the PW forums that someone make a CD recording of the various "classic" grand piano sounds, i.e. the "Steinway" sound, the Yamaha "bright" sound, the so-called "European" sound etc.
Playing the same samples of music, with the pianos mic'd identically.
This would be for people who do not have access to all the well-known brands to get a grasp of what people are talking about.
Because using words to describe nuances of piano sound/tone is like the old saying about "dancing about architecture"...i.e dancing does not explain architecture, and words regarding piano sound characteristics have no common exact definition understood or accepted by all, so they do not clarify much...words such as "color" or "complex" or "woody".
For that suggestion, I was hooted down by some expert, and the suggestion ignored.
I still think such a CD would be helpful, and I would certainly want one.
Hi. I know it is an old discussion, but I was looking for Shigeru vs S&S so I found it just now.
.
