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#2413331 - 04/24/15 01:26 AM Any word on the MP12 by Kawai?
sash360 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 2
I was wondering if I should hold out for an MP12 or if I should go for the MP11. I'd like to hear some honest opinions, gripes with the current model or simply some information if anyone has heard if the MP12 is due any time soon?

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#2413335 - 04/24/15 01:49 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10430
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
sash360, the MP11 was announced last January at NAMM, with the MP7 following at Musikmesse in April.

There are no plans to introduce any new MP models for a couple of years at least.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2413340 - 04/24/15 02:06 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Kawai James]
rpw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/14
Posts: 137
Any plans for VPC2?

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#2413344 - 04/24/15 02:18 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10430
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
...not for a couple of years at least. wink
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2413372 - 04/24/15 04:51 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
lophiomys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 305
Loc: Austria, EU
Could we get a SW update or HW upgrade to the new SK samples for the MP7 / MP11 then?
SCNR

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#2413378 - 04/24/15 05:05 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Kawai James]
sash360 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/15
Posts: 2
Thank you for letting me know, James!

I cannot wait to play on the Grand Feel smile

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#2413382 - 04/24/15 05:11 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: lophiomys]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10430
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By lophiomys
Could we get a SW update or HW upgrade to the new SK samples for the MP7 / MP11 then?


No, I'm afraid this is not possible... as I believe I explained to you previously.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2413384 - 04/24/15 05:25 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
lophiomys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 305
Loc: Austria, EU
IIRC there are people preparing to fly to Mars. This I consider as something not possible.
wink
Sorry, I am just trying to protect my investment and probably some other customer's interests.

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#2413398 - 04/24/15 06:37 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 391
Any plans for CA98?

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#2413405 - 04/24/15 07:13 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Pete14]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12642
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By Pete14
Any plans for CA98?

LOL
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2413430 - 04/24/15 08:52 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: lophiomys]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 736
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By lophiomys
IIRC there are people preparing to fly to Mars. This I consider as something not possible.
wink
Sorry, I am just trying to protect my investment and probably some other customer's interests.


Not possible in terms of a downloadable software update, but certainly possible by selling upgrade boards.

I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers, just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts.

It would be interesting to know what goes on in Kawai strategy meetings, when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment, while offering no upgrade path.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage / Galaxy Vintage D
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2413438 - 04/24/15 09:18 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: lolatu]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12642
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By lolatu
Originally Posted By lophiomys
IIRC there are people preparing to fly to Mars. This I consider as something not possible.
wink
Sorry, I am just trying to protect my investment and probably some other customer's interests.


Not possible in terms of a downloadable software update, but certainly possible by selling upgrade boards.

I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers, just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts.

It would be interesting to know what goes on in Kawai strategy meetings, when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment, while offering no upgrade path.


What DP company does this? Steinways are a LOT more expensive than any DP, so it makes sense to be able to upgrade. That, and what big changes has Steinway done to their pianos that "upgrading" would be necessary? Let's compare apples to apples, shall we?

Does the fact that the new CA series has a slightly different action than my MP11 lessen the value I give to my MP11? Heck no! It's still great. And when Kawai does upgrade the MP11, I can decide if it's worth selling and getting the next model (unlikely) or just stick with what I have and what has been very satisfying to me.

I think it is only reasonable to think that a company puts out a product that they feel is worthwhile for what they know at that time. It is always a process, and with each product, they learn something new, whether it's what their customers want or how to resolve an issue that came up in the previous line's production.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2413446 - 04/24/15 09:38 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Pete14]
ando Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 4013
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By Pete14
Any plans for CA98?

I heard it's not going to be as good as the CA99 - so better wait...

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#2413451 - 04/24/15 09:52 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: ando]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12642
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By ando
Originally Posted By Pete14
Any plans for CA98?

I heard it's not going to be as good as the CA99 - so better wait...


Well, I want the latest and greatest, so it's the CA100 for me. I just refuse to compromise.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2413468 - 04/24/15 10:37 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: lolatu]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 346
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By lolatu
I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers


Selling replacement parts or upgrades is good business. The markup can be very large. And, the customer stays happier. Because it is a circuit board, there are those who could not perform that update. Oh, how about The Dealer doing it? They are happy now too. Hmmmm ... The other limitation would be if the other circuit board(s) can not co-exist with the one being swapped out.

But. There is good money in these things.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2413507 - 04/24/15 12:17 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
phunqe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/14
Posts: 55
No, no MP12 James. My MP11 had it's 1st birthday just recently. If you release an MP12 I would black out and when I come to I would have bought it and my VISA card would be disappointed.

Oh wait, that's not the proper incentive for you, is it... Damnit.


Edited by phunqe (04/24/15 12:18 PM)

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#2413546 - 04/24/15 02:16 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 219
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
Maybe a MP11ii like with MP8 and MP8ii?
I'm just joking

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#2413547 - 04/24/15 02:20 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Morodiene]
ando Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 4013
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By Morodiene
Originally Posted By ando
Originally Posted By Pete14
Any plans for CA98?

I heard it's not going to be as good as the CA99 - so better wait...


Well, I want the latest and greatest, so it's the CA100 for me. I just refuse to compromise.


You're going to be a very happy camper in 2023. wink

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#2413556 - 04/24/15 02:48 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: ando]
Alexander Borro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/14
Posts: 231
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By ando
Originally Posted By Morodiene
Originally Posted By ando
Originally Posted By Pete14
Any plans for CA98?

I heard it's not going to be as good as the CA99 - so better wait...


Well, I want the latest and greatest, so it's the CA100 for me. I just refuse to compromise.


You're going to be a very happy camper in 2023. wink


... or a very unhappy camper because it will never arrive, though 100 does have a bell to it as a special milestone edition.

There does seem to be a +2 sequence with the CA series, since we have the CA 91,93,95,97, ... urhhm 100 where does it fit ?

Better get started on that bit of sweet talk with James ASAP to get their marketing department to comply with your wishes laugh


Edited by Alexander Borro (04/24/15 02:52 PM)
_________________________
started June 2014, self teacher.
Books: Barratt classic piano course book 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various others
Hardware: Casio Celviano AP 450 & various peripherals:
Software: Ivory American D, Pianoteq, The Giant, Cubase 7 elements.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro

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#2413570 - 04/24/15 03:36 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 391
The CA101 sounds more academic than the CA100. perhaps Kawai will go back to the basics: CA001, or the CA-R2D2.

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#2413572 - 04/24/15 03:47 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Pete14]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12642
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By Pete14
The CA101 sounds more academic than the CA100. perhaps Kawai will go back to the basics: CA001, or the CA-R2D2.


Think of the problem they're going to have with the MP7 next go around: it will be the MP8! Whoops, been there, done that.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2413581 - 04/24/15 04:15 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 391
They might call it the MP8ish, or the MP8ii. Wait, they already did that? help


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#2413592 - 04/24/15 04:48 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Pete14]
kapelli Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 504
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By Pete14
The CA101 sounds more academic than the CA100. perhaps Kawai will go back to the basics: CA001, or the CA-R2D2.


They could call it CP 1 3 and 5
but wait.....

There is Yamaha CP... grin

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#2413646 - 04/24/15 08:49 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10430
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By lolatu
I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers


You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument?

Originally Posted By lolatu
just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts.


Are you sure? Do you have a source for that information?
Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing?

Originally Posted By lolatu
...when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment...


I expect you are referring to the CA97 superseding your CA95, and can appreciate your feeling to a certain extent. However, this is the nature of technology. The 'latest and greatest' phone, tablet, TV, bike, etc. will only remain so for a limited number of time before the next generation of products are announced by their respective manufacturers. And as I believe I explained to you previously, the arrival of the CA97 does not negatively impact the quality of your CA95... it just means it's no longer the 'latest and greatest'.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2413647 - 04/24/15 08:50 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: kapelli]
Kawai James Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 10430
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By kapelli
They could call it CP 1 3 and 5
but wait.....

There is Yamaha CP... grin


There is also the Kawai CP1/CP2/CP3:
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CP_123/cp123_main.html

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2413680 - 04/24/15 11:58 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: Kawai James]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 736
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By Kawai James
Originally Posted By lolatu
I suspect that Kawai could make more money long term by selling upgrade boards to existing customers

You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument?

Existing customers already have the complete instruments, and they're not generally inclined to buy another, or if they do, they'll sell their instrument to someone else, who will then not buy one new. You're making no money at all from existing customers, so yes, selling upgrades will make you more money than the alternative, which is not selling anything.

Also, I imagine the margins on selling upgrade boards or just software are pretty good, compared to full instruments, which require operating Indonesian assembly plants and transporting 100 kg packages around the globe.

Quote:
Originally Posted By lolatu
just like Steinway make their money in servicing and selling genuine spare parts.


Are you sure? Do you have a source for that information?

I am guessing based on the way servicing and spare parts are emphasised almost to the exclusion of new sales on their website, plus a bit of common sense. How do you think Steinway make money from customers who buy their instrument used - which is probably the great majority of them, when you consider the lifetime of an instrument and the average ownership time?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that Steinway's piano building business is actually just a front to sell upgrades and servicing?

No, I am not suggesting anything is a "front", but spare parts and servicing is a large part of their business.

Quote:
Originally Posted By lolatu
...when they bring out new stuff to make large sections of their customers feel like they have "second best" equipment...


I expect you are referring to the CA97 superseding your CA95, and can appreciate your feeling to a certain extent.

I was referring to the MP11 owners in this thread who are now demanding MP12s, since now they see that the MP11 doesn't have Kawai's latest action or sounds. That's bound to put potential buyers off, and annoy people who've recently bought one.

Quote:
And as I believe I explained to you previously, the arrival of the CA97 does not negatively impact the quality of your CA95...

It does, because it means the developers stop making any effort to improve the CA95/65 firmware, because it's no longer a current model in the shops that can attract new buyers. There are still a bunch of things in the CA95 firmware that I think need fixing, and perhaps some of them have been, but you only include it in the CA97 firmware, rather than issuing a CA95 update. I don't expect developers to work for free, but you could sell me an update for £50 or whatever. It's just not worth the £1000 loss I'd take on an upgrade to the CA97, plus all the associated hassle and risk. But this is rather off-topic.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage / Galaxy Vintage D
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2413702 - 04/25/15 01:35 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 346
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
"You believe that selling upgrade boards is more profitable than selling a complete instrument?

Yes, James, that is true. The ratio of gross profit of complete units vs parts sales really favors parts. You may not make more total dollars of profit in parts, but the profit ratio in parts far exceeds new units. Think "percentage" not total dollars.

Beyond the normal Keystone Markup (200%) it us quite common to use a 5x 10x or even 20x markup for parts.

IMHO, there is little difference between a 95 and 97 except the Sound Engine. Let's say that is so. Would I pay $350-495 for a new mother board/sound engine? Sure would. I doubt that board costs you more than $85 cost. Sell it for 400+ percent? When a pinano might fetch 25% gross profit? On a good day? Hmmmm

Selling parts is great business and zero direct labor.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2413786 - 04/25/15 08:55 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 346
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
Part's Profit vs Unit Profit ...

Is it easier to build something from scratch, in a factory with alot of people? For a 20-30% gross profit? Or pull a small item from a shelf and box it. For an 80-90% gross profit? Or more?

Profit dollars you are completely missing, today. For so little work (Think Overhead).

+++

An example. A true story.

I buy a new car. It includes a gas tank in the total price. Gross profit on cars is kinda slim. Years later, my tank rusts out. At factory cost, that might be a $30 item. Or less. I go to the Dealer and pay $435 for a new one. (I did).

Hmmmm ... ... ...
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#2413820 - 04/25/15 11:10 AM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: sash360]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12642
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Now, if DPs were made to be modular, then it would be a simpler matter to upgrade as you went along, staying with the same brand (because no doubt, it would be proprietary for each company), but if they come out with a better sound sample, then it would be designed to be upgraded vs. completely replaced.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#2413867 - 04/25/15 01:20 PM Re: Any word on the MP12 by Kawai? [Re: McBuster]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 262
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By McBuster

IMHO, there is little difference between a 95 and 97 except the Sound Engine.


Have you played both of them side by side?

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